The Military Discussion of Wing Chun

[Xue Sheng]

I am by no means a master in anything...not even WC...I am just a student

Good to hear

Xue Sheng is Mandarin for student by the way.

maybe my Wing Chun is MMA meaning External WC and Internal Tai Chi principles...lol....ha ha...

That could be and that I cannot say anything about it. Your flavor of Wing Chun might be exactly what you say it is. But that does not make all Wing Chun Internal.

My flavor of Yang Taiji comes form Tung Ying Chieh (his teacher was Yang Chengfu) and there are 2 fast forms in my flavor of Yang style Taijiquan but that does not mean that all flavors have fast forms. If you learn Yang Taiji for Yang Jun (Yang Chengfu's Great Grandson) you will not be taught a fast form. For these you need to be in the Tung Ying Chieh lineage.

If you learn Chen style Taijiquan from Chen Yu you will learn Xinjia Yilu and Xinjia Erlu but if you learn from Chen Zhenglei you will learn Laojia Yilu, Laojia Erlu and Xinjia Yilu and Xinjia Erlu they are both Chen and they are both 19th Generation Chen. There is another 19th Generation Chen family member in Chengdu... I think he is there or is it Xian... either way he will only teach you Laojia Yilu and Laojia Erlu and frankly I would happily train with any one of them but you cannot make any blanket statement about Chen curriculum based on training with any one of them.

You train Wing Chun as an internal ok I cannot disagree with that. But that does not mean all Wing Chun is internal.

Happy New Year
:asian:

 

[Yoshiyahu]

My Main Style is Wing Chun...I can tell you lineages there...but as for Tai Chi Lineages...I dont even remember...never really asked...an didn't pay attention to it for real when some of teachers were speaking about lineage...I am the one who is there to practice and get the techniques down so I can grow on my own and learn and receive...

Good to hear

Xue Sheng is Mandarin for student by the way.



That could be and that I cannot say anything about it. Your flavor of Wing Chun might be exactly what you say it is. But that does not make all Wing Chun Internal.

My flavor of Yang Taiji comes form Tung Ying Chieh (his teacher was Yang Chengfu) and there are 2 fast forms in my flavor of Yang stlye taijiquan but that does not mean that all flavors have fast forms. If you learn Yang Taiji for Yang Jun (Yang Chengfu's Great Grandson) you will not be taught a fast form. For these you need to be in the Tung Ying Chieh lineage.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My Main Style is Wing Chun...I can tell you lineages there...but as for Tai Chi Lineages...I dont even remember...never really asked...an didn't pay attention to it for real when some of teachers were speaking about lineage...I am the one who is there to practice and get the techniques down so I can grow on my own and learn and receive...

No problem :asian:

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Just read all the post and Being a former MCMAP instructor, I have to say, MCMAP is a style.
As MCMAP instructor I was learning Wing Tsun (EBMAS) on my free time and the Jim Fung system.

I do believe that the wing chun principles fit well with the Marine Corps doctrine and the way fire teams are deployed.

The army believes a squad takes out a fire team, a platoon takes out a squad, and ect..., they play the numbers game.

As a Marine we are taught to adapt, overcome, and improvise. And that you imagination is your greatest weapon.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent post...i love the info...

Just read all the post and Being a former MCMAP instructor, I have to say, MCMAP is a style.
As MCMAP instructor I was learning Wing Tsun (EBMAS) on my free time and the Jim Fung system.

I do believe that the wing chun principles fit well with the Marine Corps doctrine and the way fire teams are deployed.

The army believes a squad takes out a fire team, a platoon takes out a squad, and ect..., they play the numbers game.

As a Marine we are taught to adapt, overcome, and improvise. And that you imagination is your greatest weapon.

 

[Si-Je]

hey guys, good thread. But, I think I've given enough to give you an idea how to use WC theory and concepts in war, or battle, even military strategy.
I won't give anymore hints. You guys figure it out. lol!
I know what I'll do if I have too, and I don't have the MCMAP and marine training to tell me what to do.

Be creative. You don't need the forms of WC. You don't need to decode the complete "chinese traditional style".
Just the very basic concepts. Think.
Think
How can these 5 simple concepts be applied to military stratagy, application, and such. I don't know the military lingo, or whatever like hubbie. But, I know what to do.
Give me a scenario (and yes, you'll have to explain more because I don't understand the military code words and phrases that say so much. sorry for being a dirt bag civilian! lol!) and ask what you will. How can I put WC/WT concepts to that situation. I'll do my best. I think you'll like it.

If you don't then, at least you'll have something new to gripe about instead of gripping about one branch or the other. lol! (I'm a civy, you'll all the same to me. )

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay Si-Je I will bite...here you go?

Lets say the Taliban invade North America after they totally subdued canada...there is war in the streets...six taliban invade your living space,,Hubbie disarms all six of them...three attack your husband...he starts ripping their throats out...that leaves two attacking you and one grabbing the baby...How do you use your WC to kill the two intruders to give hubbie time to rip the other three heads off so he come an kill the other one touching the baby????

hey guys, good thread. But, I think I've given enough to give you an idea how to use WC theory and concepts in war, or battle, even military strategy.
I won't give anymore hints. You guys figure it out. lol!
I know what I'll do if I have too, and I don't have the MCMAP and marine training to tell me what to do.

Be creative. You don't need the forms of WC. You don't need to decode the complete "chinese traditional style".
Just the very basic concepts. Think.
Think
How can these 5 simple concepts be applied to military stratagy, application, and such. I don't know the military lingo, or whatever like hubbie. But, I know what to do.
Give me a scenario (and yes, you'll have to explain more because I don't understand the military code words and phrases that say so much. sorry for being a dirt bag civilian! lol!) and ask what you will. How can I put WC/WT concepts to that situation. I'll do my best. I think you'll like it.

If you don't then, at least you'll have something new to gripe about instead of gripping about one branch or the other. lol! (I'm a civy, you'll all the same to me. )

 

[Xue Sheng]

Okay Si-Je I will bite...here you go?

Lets say the Taliban invade North America after they totally subdued canada...there is war in the streets...six taliban invade your living space,,Hubbie disarms all six of them...three attack your husband...he starts ripping their throats out...that leaves two attacking you and one grabbing the baby...How do you use your WC to kill the two intruders to give hubbie time to rip the other three heads off so he come an kill the other one touching the baby????

Asking a mother how she will protect her baby is going to get the same answer from just about every mother IMO, Wing Chun or not, they will protect the baby with their life if necessary.

 

[Si-Je]

Break the knees so I can focus on the one messing with boobo girl.
Come back and kill them later, or let hubbie catch up and finish them after I have baby kid.

Okay Si-Je I will bite...here you go?

Lets say the Taliban invade North America after they totally subdued canada...there is war in the streets...six taliban invade your living space,,Hubbie disarms all six of them...three attack your husband...he starts ripping their throats out...that leaves two attacking you and one grabbing the baby...How do you use your WC to kill the two intruders to give hubbie time to rip the other three heads off so he come an kill the other one touching the baby????

 

[MBuzzy]

hey guys, good thread. But, I think I've given enough to give you an idea how to use WC theory and concepts in war, or battle, even military strategy.
I won't give anymore hints. You guys figure it out. lol!
I know what I'll do if I have too, and I don't have the MCMAP and marine training to tell me what to do.

Be creative. You don't need the forms of WC. You don't need to decode the complete "chinese traditional style".
Just the very basic concepts. Think.
Think
How can these 5 simple concepts be applied to military stratagy, application, and such. I don't know the military lingo, or whatever like hubbie. But, I know what to do.
Give me a scenario (and yes, you'll have to explain more because I don't understand the military code words and phrases that say so much. sorry for being a dirt bag civilian! lol!) and ask what you will. How can I put WC/WT concepts to that situation. I'll do my best. I think you'll like it.

If you don't then, at least you'll have something new to gripe about instead of gripping about one branch or the other. lol! (I'm a civy, you'll all the same to me. )

The good thing is that we really don't have to decode anything or for that matter think too much to make the connection.

If you examine the history of military strategy, our strategies and writings have been largely based on history and strategic writings. Starting with the Art of War by Sun Tzu, we have a great wealth of geniuses who have already done the work. These ideas seem to be entrenched not only in Asian Martial Arts in general, but also in military strategy across the centuries.

What interests me the most is that the military has many of the same concepts and ideas already, probably from the same sources that WC got them from. Although it has been altered to fit our needs and mission constraints, it is based on the same principles.

Honestly, discussion how WC can be used in a specific incident really doesn't relate to the military usages, especially of civilians. How Martial Arts can be used on the battlefield is a discussion that's been going on for centuries. Obviously Martial Arts came about BECAUSE of war. The way that hand to hand combat is used today is vastly different, but the same principles apply to achieve different ends. I know soldiers who have used Martial Arts (Tang Soo Do specifically) recently in war, so it isn't an outdated concept that has been overshadowed by the use of weapons.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

So true..I would have to agree with you...But no one else answered her question...an that was the only thing I could come up with at the time?

Asking a mother how she will protect her baby is going to get the same answer from just about every mother IMO, Wing Chun or not, they will protect the baby with their life if necessary.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay what country do soldiers who use tang so do come from...Are the American Soldiers...also have they said they actually used their art in hand to hand combat...

Also if their any real military people here who have actually seen war...how much would you say you use your hand to hand skills. Most people seem to think all you do is shoot and throw grenanes...but never really actually have to punch,block kick,throw or break limbs?

The good thing is that we really don't have to decode anything or for that matter think too much to make the connection.

If you examine the history of military strategy, our strategies and writings have been largely based on history and strategic writings. Starting with the Art of War by Sun Tzu, we have a great wealth of geniuses who have already done the work. These ideas seem to be entrenched not only in Asian Martial Arts in general, but also in military strategy across the centuries.

What interests me the most is that the military has many of the same concepts and ideas already, probably from the same sources that WC got them from. Although it has been altered to fit our needs and mission constraints, it is based on the same principles.

Honestly, discussion how WC can be used in a specific incident really doesn't relate to the military usages, especially of civilians. How Martial Arts can be used on the battlefield is a discussion that's been going on for centuries. Obviously Martial Arts came about BECAUSE of war. The way that hand to hand combat is used today is vastly different, but the same principles apply to achieve different ends. I know soldiers who have used Martial Arts (Tang Soo Do specifically) recently in war, so it isn't an outdated concept that has been overshadowed by the use of weapons.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Hand to hand is more common in urban warfare. You may think a room is clear or by pass a closet and out from behind comes the enemy with a knife. My first reaction is to turn and hit him with the butt of my rifle and then put some lead in him.

 

[MBuzzy]

So true..I would have to agree with you...But no one else answered her question...an that was the only thing I could come up with at the time?

If we're going to talk single instances and applications....I would be interested to know, as a Tang Soo Do practitioner with only 2 seminar's worth of WC knowledge, in what military instances WC may be applicable.

disclaimer - I'm using the word soldier here in place of saying "Soldier, Marine, Airman, or Seaman" every time.
For example, A solder is wearing full body armor (very thick vest with two 15 lb plates (one in front, one in back)), plus a helmet, holding a rifle, possible wearing a thigh or drop holster with a hand gun in it, and in military uniform (so combat boots, plus BDUs or service equivalent). Said soldier is out of his convoy (on the ground) doing civil interaction type of stuff. Civilian approaches solider, grabs his rifle and starts screaming at him in Farsi. Soldier can't reach his side arm and the aggressor is controlling the rifle.

Now...within MCMAP and Army Combatives, this situation is dealt with pretty straight forward. Since they are designed SPECIFICALLY for troops holding weapons and include a robust section on fighting with those weapons. Now the ideas and concepts of control, use of force, proportionality, etc all hold, since they are shared by military and martial arts. But in what ways would WC help in such a situation?

 

[MBuzzy]

Hand to hand is more common in urban warfare. You may think a room is clear or by pass a closet and out from behind comes the enemy with a knife. My first reaction is to turn and hit him with the butt of my rifle and then put some lead in him.

Exactly why I saw that Martial Arts are GREAT and it is wonderful if soldiers know them....BUT, in most situations, we will use gun fu or give the give a nice rifle butt to the face, so the effectiveness of traditional asian MAs is diminished a bit.

Although, I do know a Marine who was clearing houses (he is a 4th degree in Tang Soo Do) and side kicked a guy in the chest.....

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Hey Fly Boy. I know the air force sometimes has trouble understanding tactics and thet they usually follow army tactics. As a Marine we start off with a four man fire team then it developes from there. We are taught to adapt and improvise on the fly.

 

[MBuzzy]

Okay what country do soldiers who use tang so do come from...Are the American Soldiers...also have they said they actually used their art in hand to hand combat...

Also if their any real military people here who have actually seen war...how much would you say you use your hand to hand skills. Most people seem to think all you do is shoot and throw grenanes...but never really actually have to punch,block kick,throw or break limbs?

Tang Soo Do is a Korean Martial Art, developed in 1945 and based on a conglomeration of Chinese and Japanese styles. The Korean military is trained in a combat oriented (NOT SPORT) version of Tae Kwon Do, which is a derivative and very close cousin to TSD. Every Korean soldier gets a very in depth training in TKD through their entire career, daily training in fact. In many jobs within the Korean Army and Air Force, a 2nd Degree or higher is required to even be considered. Notice that these styles were created BEFORE the Korean war, so they have been battle tested. They are still used within the Korean military. In fact, Korea is STILL at war and the North and South are still in a very very unstable cease-fire.

TSD was actually brought to America by soldiers who had learned it in Korea during and after the Korean war.

As for how much hand to hand is used in modern warfare....My experience is limited. I've been on less than 30 convoys and never been in direct urban combat. My engagements have all been security oriented or guarding based in Iraq.

In my experience, hand to hand combat is BY FAR a last resort. Let's just say that I'll THROW my M-16 at someone before I resort to hand to hand. All other weapons have to have been taken away. For example, in one situation, we were guarding suspected insurgents. They were taken at gun point, zip tied, put on their knees and guarded at gun point. If any of them had breathed wrong, they would have gotten a bullet, I would not have tried to incapacitate them with my hands. Depending on the Rules of Engagement for your mission and theater, in today's environment, you are generally authorized to use deadly force if the aggressor shows an intent to harm you.

The situation in which I would be punching, throwing, breaking limbs.....well, let's just say that the proverbial crap had really hit the fan. hehehe, especially since I'm in the Air Force, so I probably won't be in much Urban combat.

Also, just remember, most of our enemies now have minimal traing if any (some are no more than farmers). Chances are, they are shooting from a distance or trying to blow you up. Once you are close, they pretty much recognize that they are going to lose and don't try anything. So basically, they are trying just as hard to NOT get into hand to hand combat. The majority of Iraqis at least, have NO DESIRE to go toe to toe with ANY American soldier.

 

[MBuzzy]

Hey Fly Boy. I know the air force sometimes has trouble understanding tactics and thet they usually follow army tactics. As a Marine we start off with a four man fire team then it developes from there. We are taught to adapt and improvise on the fly.

hahaha, exactly! And you're dead on, all of my combat training is Army training. We got the basic Fire Team training during our Combat Skills Training, but in the situations that I was in, we were not set up in Fire Teams, they were all Convoy situations where we dismounted.

This actually demonstrates my point. The CONCEPTS that are taught in Martial Arts are very useful and beneficial and from what it sounds like, WC's basic tenets mirror our LOAC pretty close.

We could go back and forth about single instances all day long, but in the end, knowing basic ideas and concepts is all that will help. A person will do whatever they can and will resort to muscle memory in a stressful situation. If you know WC, you'll use it, if you know MCMAP, you'll use it, if you know BJJ, you'll use it - but all only if you need it and chances are, as a last resort.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

In combat your learn to improvise and the imagination is a very powerful weapon.

 

[MBuzzy]

In combat your learn to improvise and the imagination is a very powerful weapon.

It is also one of the basic principles of just about every Martial Art on the planet. Martial....Military.....no coincidence. We do the same stuff, train something as often as possible to build muscle memory, so that when you're in the situation, you have the tools to improvise.