The Military Discussion of Wing Chun

[MBuzzy]

You are very correct. My son just graduated from basic combat training, with minimal hand to hand training. They save the good stuff for special forces. He also has a buddy that went into the Marines with a TKD back ground, and was very good. During hell week, when they free for all, his comment was that everything you were taught before boot camp went out the window, when you had many guys on you all at once.

Fortunately training doesn't end with Basic. Everyone keeps training for their entire careers. There is a lot more specialized training after Basic.

Special Forces is a totally different deal, although I would LOVE to see their FM or Guidance.

 

[CuongNhuka]

No Traditional Martial Art will EVER be translated directly to military applications.

Actually, the orginal conversation between me and Si-Je was about ocmparing Military tactics to Wing Chun theory.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I have no clue how much BJJ it is, because I don't know BJJ

I don't either. I'm not even sure it is BJJ. I think it is because:
A, it looks like BJJ (MMA fights, youtube clips, and so on)
B, it's a popular martial art that focuses on the ground
C, one of my army buddies told me he thinks it's BJJ because of some comments made by his instructors during boot and later his MOS school.

 

[MBuzzy]

Actually, the orginal conversation between me and Si-Je was about ocmparing Military tactics to Wing Chun theory.

Exactly right and I agree, my comment was that I don't think that a TMA is able to be directly translated. The ideas and concepts, yes. i.e. military tactics to theory. That is certainly an easy translation for many styles. And from what it sounds like, WC fits VERY well with Military concepts and applications. At least in my styles, we don't have such a simply laid out set of concepts that Si-je laid out. Perhaps that comment wasn't phrased correctly.

I think that the discussion of military theory to martial arts theory is a very good discussion, since martial arts great from and for combat. I mean....MARTIAL arts! Makes perfect sense to me!

What I don't believe, though is that an entire Traditional Martial Arts system can be directly used in a military application. There simply isn't the time to decode forms, we have our own form of discipline and rank, so that part isn't needed, the basics that most arts use don't have the simple, direct, and effective applications that we require. Therefore, we take the good parts of other styles, get rid of the stuff we don't need and POOF - MCMAP

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Persoanlly I love wing Chun but America is roman and greek society...i think its armed forces do better training their soldiers in western boxing and wrestling...something the average amercan excels in.


But as for Wing Chun....If you have soldiers who are in the reserves during peace time Wing Chun would be a great art for them learn...It takes about three years in my opinion for someone to effectively fight with Wing Chun who has never had any previous martial arts training

How long is boot camp?


But it would be great if The Armed forces could learn wing chun...But this is a western country...it would be exceptional but not realistic.

Exactly right and I agree, my comment was that I don't think that a TMA is able to be directly translated. The ideas and concepts, yes. i.e. military tactics to theory. That is certainly an easy translation for many styles. And from what it sounds like, WC fits VERY well with Military concepts and applications. At least in my styles, we don't have such a simply laid out set of concepts that Si-je laid out. Perhaps that comment wasn't phrased correctly.

I think that the discussion of military theory to martial arts theory is a very good discussion, since martial arts great from and for combat. I mean....MARTIAL arts! Makes perfect sense to me!

What I don't believe, though is that an entire Traditional Martial Arts system can be directly used in a military application. There simply isn't the time to decode forms, we have our own form of discipline and rank, so that part isn't needed, the basics that most arts use don't have the simple, direct, and effective applications that we require. Therefore, we take the good parts of other styles, get rid of the stuff we don't need and POOF - MCMAP

 

[Xue Sheng]

Jeet Kune Dao is actually considered to be modified Wing Chun...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do


JKD principles

Economy of motion

Be like water

Stop hits & stop kicks

Simultaneous parrying & punching

No high kicks

Centerline


Efficiency - An attack that reaches its mark.

Directness - Doing what comes naturally in a learned way.

Simplicity - Thinking in an uncomplicated manner; without ornamentation.


Qoute from Wikipedia:

So it all sound similiar to me...What better way to teach Wing Chun to western minded folks but include European sports or styles with it. But the Core is Wing Chun...

Well since we can't ask Bruce Lee what he thinks....

You see the core of Yiquan is Xingyiquan too but Yiquan is not called a modified Xingyiquan. The core of Xingyiquan is Xinyiquan and Xingyiquan is not called a modified Xinyiquan. The Core of Judo is Jujutsu and yet it is not called a modified Jujutsu. Sanda is from multiple styles and it has a rather large amount of Shuaijiao but it is not Shuaijiao nor is it any other CMA style it is Sanda. Chen style Taijiquan could possibly have a base of a Qigong style called Taijiqigong and Shaolin Paoqui and yet it is not called by either name or called a modified version of either. But Hebei, Shanxi are both styles of Xingyiquan and Yin and Chang are both styles of Bagua and Chen and Yang are both styles of Taiji. But then I am a self professed traditionalist so maybe it’s just me being stubborn and old fashion.

But I still have to wonder why is it that parts of wing Chun can be put together into a military training system and still be called Wing Chun. Teach a bit of Sil Lim Tao a touch of The Muk Yan Jong form and some other stuff thrown in possibly and is it still Wing Chun. You say yes, I say no. :asian:

By the way those JKD principles you posted can be found in many CMA styles...so are they Wing Chun too?

 

[skinters]

Yes but you are not following the karma sutra and the karma sutra is a book about love making not a style to be followed like Wing Chun or a label describing love making like Wing Chun is a label for a specific styel of CMA.

To me Wing Chun includes Sil lim tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee as well as Muk Yan Jong.

Now if I train only Sil lum tao can I call myself a wing chun guy?

Can I teach peopel Wing Chun?

If I only do Muk Yan Jong and nothing else am I training wing chun?

If I take just bits a pieces of Sil lim tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee as well as Muk Yan Jong and slap them together to train someone is that Wing Chun?

IMO no to all but that is only my opinion.

If however any of this is still Wing Chun then Yiquan is still Xingyiquan, JKD is still Wing Chun, Xingyiquan is still Xinyiquan and Judo is still Jujutsu

yes its still wing chun,i mean if i get what your saying right,nobody can call it wingchun unless they know every single part of it.

no matter what art your in you continue learn and improve into old age,and not many can claim to know an art in its entirety,and if you dont know all of your art do you mean you cant call it anything ?

thinking about it i really dont know if it matters either way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

thinking about it i really dont know if it matters either way.

Bingo

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting...Well Only thing i can share...is that JKD was mainly derived from Jun Fan Kung Fu...which was infact what...Wing Chun in the united states...

Have you studied Jun Fan Kung Fu...tell me what you think of that?

Wikipedia says:

Lee began teaching martial arts after his arrival in the United States in 1959. Originally trained in Wing Chun Gung Fu, Lee called what he taught Jun Fan Gung Fu. Jun Fan Gung Fu (literally Bruce's Gung Fu), is basically a slightly modified approach to Wing Chun Gung Fu.

Bruce Lee however didnt have the complete WC system so he had to fill in the gaps.

Wikipedia says:

Lee trained in Wing Chun Gung Fu from age 13–18 under Hong Kong Wing Chun Sifu Yip Man. Lee was introduced to Yip Man in early 1954 by William Cheung, then a live-in student of Yip Man. Like most Chinese martial arts schools at that time, Sifu Yip Man's classes were often taught by the highest ranking students. One of the highest ranking students under Yip Man at the time was Wong Shun-Leung. Wong is thought to have had the largest influence on Bruce's training. Yip Man trained Lee privately after some students refused to train with Lee due to his ancestry.

Well since we can't ask Bruce Lee what he thinks....

You see the core of Yiquan is Xingyiquan too but Yiquan is not called a modified Xingyiquan. The core of Xingyiquan is Xinyiquan and Xingyiquan is not called a modified Xinyiquan. The Core of Judo is Jujutsu and yet it is not called a modified Jujutsu. Sanda is from multiple styles and it has a rather large amount of Shuaijiao but it is not Shuaijiao nor is it any other CMA style it is Sanda. Chen style Taijiquan could possibly have a base of a Qigong style called Taijiqigong and Shaolin Paoqui and yet it is not called by either name or called a modified version of either. But Hebei, Shanxi are both styles of Xingyiquan and Yin and Chang are both styles of Bagua and Chen and Yang are both styles of Taiji. But then I am a self professed traditionalist so maybe it’s just me being stubborn and old fashion.

But I still have to wonder why is it that parts of wing Chun can be put together into a military training system and still be called Wing Chun. Teach a bit of Sil Lim Tao a touch of The Muk Yan Jong form and some other stuff thrown in possibly and is it still Wing Chun. You say yes, I say no. :asian:

By the way those JKD principles you posted can be found in many CMA styles...so are they Wing Chun too?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Exactly right and I agree, my comment was that I don't think that a TMA is able to be directly translated.

Oh, it seemed like the people posting thought Si-Je and me we taslking about teaching Wing Chun to military personal. I geuss I misread, or something....

What I don't believe, though is that an entire Traditional Martial Arts system can be directly used in a military application. There simply isn't the time to decode forms, we have our own form of discipline and rank, so that part isn't needed, the basics that most arts use don't have the simple, direct, and effective applications that we require. Therefore, we take the good parts of other styles, get rid of the stuff we don't need and POOF - MCMAP

MCMAP (whether or not anyone wnats to admit it) is a traditional martial art. There is a rank structure, with a defined material, a defined way to do that material, and a defined way to pass is it on. The Marines created a tradition when they made MCMAP. Just because they don't bow and have Kata, doesn't mean there isn't a tradition. And there is a kiai. They just call it a 'war cry'.

How long is boot camp?

Differnit branches do differnit things. Each branch has there own location(s), training cycle, and training length. The longest is the Marines at 13 weeks, we train at either Parris Island North Carolina or San Deigo California. The Army has (I think) 7 differnit sites, and theres is 9 weeks. Airforce and Navy are both 6 weeks with one site (I think). Buzzy can probably tell you alot more (he's been in alot longer, is Airforce and works with Army guys). One thing I can you with certaintly though, ONLY the Marines have 'Boot Camp'. Everyone else has 'Basic training'. Thats not Marine pride/ego (whatever you want to call it), thats actually what the differnit branches call it.

But it would be great if The Armed forces could learn wing chun...But this is a western country...it would be exceptional but not realistic.

Then I'm geussing you'd be surprised to know there are quite a few Martial Arts schools on differnit bases? I know there is a pretty big BJJ school at Camp Lejeune.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you know Chen Tai Chi and Yang Tai Chi in its entirety?

Bingo

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do you know Chen Tai Chi and Yang Tai Chi in its entirety?

Actually I do not know anyone that does, but they do train the complete curriculum not just a bit here and a bit there a little single hand push hands a bit of grasp the sparrows tail a touch of wild horse parts its mane and a cat step or 2 does not make it taiji. Even Chen Xiaowang has said he is still learning and if someone ever tells you they know it all... get away from them as fast a possible because they can't teach you anything.

And may I ask what the heck this has to do with Military Wing Chun?

If you are going for something like well you don't know it entirely so you don't train it..... don't try it will fail.

And I am really getting to a point here where I REALLY need to ask you what do you find so lacking in Wing Chun that you need to make it things it is not?

 

[MBuzzy]

MCMAP (whether or not anyone wnats to admit it) is a traditional martial art. There is a rank structure, with a defined material, a defined way to do that material, and a defined way to pass is it on. The Marines created a tradition when they made MCMAP. Just because they don't bow and have Kata, doesn't mean there isn't a tradition. And there is a kiai. They just call it a 'war cry'.

That, I suppose depends on your definition of what a TMA is, although this is a good point, it does meet many of the criteria.

Different branches do different things. Each branch has there own location(s), training cycle, and training length. The longest is the Marines at 13 weeks, we train at either Parris Island North Carolina or San Diego California. The Army has (I think) 7 different sites, and theirs is 9 weeks. Air Force and Navy are both 6 weeks with one site (I think). Buzzy can probably tell you a lot more (he's been in a lot longer, is Air Force and works with Army guys). One thing I can you with certainly though, ONLY the Marines have 'Boot Camp'. Everyone else has 'Basic training'. That's not Marine pride/ego (whatever you want to call it), that's actually what the different branches call it.

Air Force's Basic is 8 1/2 weeks now at Lackland AFB, one location. The Navy's Basic Training is 8 weeks at Naval Station Great Lakes in Illinois. Both the Navy and the Marine Corps call their Basic Training "Boot Camp," although it is a slang term for any Basic Training. Officially, the Air Force's is Basic Military Training and the Army's is Army Basic Training (Army uses 5 sites).

 

[MBuzzy]

Persoanlly I love wing Chun but America is roman and greek society...i think its armed forces do better training their soldiers in western boxing and wrestling...something the average amercan excels in.

But as for Wing Chun....If you have soldiers who are in the reserves during peace time Wing Chun would be a great art for them learn...It takes about three years in my opinion for someone to effectively fight with Wing Chun who has never had any previous martial arts training

But it would be great if The Armed forces could learn wing chun...But this is a western country...it would be exceptional but not realistic.

I really don't think that Wing Chun is right for the Military. Now, I don't know Wing Chun, but this isn't a knock against the style. I don't think that ANY of the traditional Asian Martial Arts are right for the military. In fact, aside from one created specifically FOR the military, NO Traditional Martial Arts are right for the military. If you consider MCMAP a TMA, then it is fine. Army Combatives is another great way to go.

I think that we have the right idea. Take the good stuff from other styles and put it into a system specific to our needs. It is done all the time, new styles are constantly being formed to adapt to new needs.

The military has a very specific use, which includes different types of weapons fighting (Very non traditional Martial Arts Weapons), hand to hand combat requiring fast and decisive kills, fighting in a very specific uniform (IBA and Helmet), and they need to learn it, teach it, and know it in a very short period of time.

While WC is a great style that has or could incorporate many of those things, there is some extra that isn't needed and there is some more that needs to be added. Honestly, I think that the way we're going is a good plan. With MCMAP, Army and AF Combatives Programs and I'm sure that the Navy is on their way too, we are training our troops smarter and more efficiently in the fighting styles they need.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I really don't think that Wing Chun is right for the Military. Now, I don't know Wing Chun, but this isn't a knock against the style. I don't think that ANY of the traditional Asian Martial Arts are right for the military. In fact, aside from one created specifically FOR the military, NO Traditional Martial Arts are right for the military. If you consider MCMAP a TMA, then it is fine. Army Combatives is another great way to go.

I think that we have the right idea. Take the good stuff from other styles and put it into a system specific to our needs. It is done all the time, new styles are constantly being formed to adapt to new needs.

The military has a very specific use, which includes different types of weapons fighting (Very non traditional Martial Arts Weapons), hand to hand combat requiring fast and decisive kills, fighting in a very specific uniform (IBA and Helmet), and they need to learn it, teach it, and know it in a very short period of time.

While WC is a great style that has or could incorporate many of those things, there is some extra that isn't needed and there is some more that needs to be added. Honestly, I think that the way we're going is a good plan. With MCMAP, Army and AF Combatives Programs and I'm sure that the Navy is on their way too, we are training our troops smarter and more efficiently in the fighting styles they need.

Agreed

This is why the Chinese military now uses Sanda that is made up of multiple CMA styles Kicking, punching, Qinna and Shuaijiao minus any Qi training.

 

[jks9199]

That, I suppose depends on your definition of what a TMA is, although this is a good point, it does meet many of the criteria.



Air Force's Basic is 8 1/2 weeks now at Lackland AFB, one location. The Navy's Basic Training is 8 weeks at Naval Station Great Lakes in Illinois. Both the Navy and the Marine Corps call their Basic Training "Boot Camp," although it is a slang term for any Basic Training. Officially, the Air Force's is Basic Military Training and the Army's is Army Basic Training (Army uses 5 sites).

Just a note about the natures of Basic Training.

There's a reason USMC Basic is so much longer; the Marine Corps model is that every Marine is a rifleman, and has basic infantry capability. So their Basic training includes a lot more of that material than the other services. (The Basic School at Quantico includes quite a lot of the same boot camp material, just for officers.) The goal of basic training in the other services to transition a civilian to a soldier/airman/sailor who will then get their other training to build on that. Sure, they get some of the shooting and combative type stuff -- but the emphasis isn't quite the same.

 

[MBuzzy]

Just a note about the natures of Basic Training.

There's a reason USMC Basic is so much longer; the Marine Corps model is that every Marine is a rifleman, and has basic infantry capability. So their Basic training includes a lot more of that material than the other services. (The Basic School at Quantico includes quite a lot of the same boot camp material, just for officers.) The goal of basic training in the other services to transition a civilian to a soldier/airman/sailor who will then get their other training to build on that. Sure, they get some of the shooting and combative type stuff -- but the emphasis isn't quite the same.

Exactly, every service also has several different levels of advanced schools. Not only to initially train them in their career fields, but along the way as well. Almost every rank or group of ranks has a group devoted specifically to them, at least in the AF. I know that the other services have similar types of advanced training. The Air Force for example, can afford to have a short basic because there is so little common group. We are really a service of specialists....some of our technical training schools are over a year long. There is much more commonality in what Soliders and Marines do in their day to day jobs. They do of course, have specialties....but if you ask a Marine what he does....he'll say that he's a Marine. If you ask an Airman what he does, he'll say that he's a Civil Engineer or a Mechanic or an Information Analyst. There is a big paradigm shift between how the services view their troops.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

If you mean why am I trying make Wing Chun internal...Its not I am trying make it that way...thats the way I was Taught Wing Chun. From inside out. I was taught internal method over external. You only have a little tai chi...So your not practicing Tai Chi.

Actually I do not know anyone that does, but they do train the complete curriculum not just a bit here and a bit there a little single hand push hands a bit of grasp the sparrows tail a touch of wild horse parts its mane and a cat step or 2 does not make it taiji. Even Chen Xiaowang has said he is still learning and if someone ever tells you they know it all... get away from them as fast a possible because they can't teach you anything.

And may I ask what the heck this has to do with Military Wing Chun?

If you are going for something like well you don't know it entirely so you don't train it..... don't try it will fail.

And I am really getting to a point here where I REALLY need to ask you what do you find so lacking in Wing Chun that you need to make it things it is not?

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you mean why am I trying make Wing Chun internal...Its not I am trying make it that way...thats the way I was Taught Wing Chun. From inside out. I was taught internal method over external. You only have a little tai chi...So your not practicing Tai Chi.

That is actually a pretty funny response you have there

I told you not to go there but you still did you took the nah nah na nah nah approach, IMO. But then I guess I am in good company because if you actually read my previous response Chen Xiaowang says he does not know everything either and I am absolutely not telling you who Chen Xiaowang is, look it up.

But if you must know

Over 17 years of taiji 15 specifically in Yang style in a rather good lineage

probably now 3 years in Chen, some of that with the Chen family.

If you think that is a little then by all means go with that my friend

You don't know what neijia is and you want to make Wing Chun a Neijia ok here you go this is what you have to do

The only people you really have to convince are Sun Lutang and Huang Zongxi but since Sun Lutang died in 1932 and Huang Zongxi died in 1695 I guess it is to late to convince them that Wing Chun is a neijia, damn the luck. One started this mess and the other defined it. But both are basically saying, amongst a few other things, that it has to be linked to Taoists and most certainly not Buddhists.

And while we're talking Taoists just in case you are thinking of a way to associate Wing Chun with Taoists is through Zhang Sanfeng, the Taoist said to have come up with Neijia and Taijiquan; it is likely he is a myth, but if you do wish to go there you need to choose one to make it more believable

Here are a few

Zhang Sanfeng who may have lived in either the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) or the Sung Dynasty (969-1126) or the Southern Sung Dynasty (1127-1279) and someone did make a reference that would put him in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) but for any of the histories to work he can't be from the Ming Dynasty so I wouldn't choose that one.

Are you beginning to see how silly this whole thing is?

So someone takes you off balance and throws you on the ground with such a relaxed ease and grace you just can't believe you were thrown like a Yang Taiji master or someone takes you out by slamming you square in the head and/or stepping on your knee like a Sanda master might or they come straight at you so fast you can't counter and hit you like a truck knocking you backwards 6 feet like a Xingyiquan master might do or they grab hold of you and throw you on the ground so hard you can't get up like a Shuaijiao master might or move around you so fast you don't know where they went and then they whack you in the back of the head so hard they knock you out like a Bagua master might do or they grab you lock you and then hurt you real bad like a qinna master might do or they hit you with a flurry of punches that all hit the mark real hard like you might get if a Tongbei master was attacking or they hit you in the chest so hard you forget how to breathe like a Wing Chun master might do what difference does it make if they are labeled Neijia or Waijia?

I have to say after a few days and several posts on this I no longer care, call it what you will it does not really matter anyway

But I will leave you with this, one of the possible origins or at least one possible reason Neijia got stressed to much and hung on so long was that it was away to make one superior to another without having to prove it. And this was propagated by less than stellar pupils of illiterate masters. It was so much easier to make up for a lack of skill and training by claiming the superiority of say taiji (calling it a Neijia) over say Hung Ga (calling it waijia). This way the less than stellar taiji practitioner could get off looking good and not taking the challenge (which would likely get him killed) by claiming his style was a neijia and by far superior to the lowly waijia and he just simply did not want to hurt the poor fellow that wasted his time training Hung Ga. And to be honest I have seen this very thing used today, had it used against me once actually in a comment that was "I don't DO Martial arts... I DO Taiji" Funny thing was I do taiji too and we were talking about taiji shanshou (form only) at the time of which the other guy was absolutely awful at.

Also in one of the multiple threads you have on Wing Chun ui a Neijia that also does not seem to be getting the response you wish I asked you a whole lot of questions I await your answers.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I know who is Chen Xiaowang is...on another thread about FaJin i posted a video on him there...very interesting actually you brought him up?

An wow...you said alot and answer those questions of yours...I am by no means a master in anything...not even WC...I am just a student...But you disagree..many probably will thats okay...maybe my Wing Chun is MMA meaning External WC and Internal Tai Chi principles...lol....ha ha...

That is actually a pretty funny response you have there

I told you not to go there but you still did you took the nah nah na nah nah approach, IMO. But then I guess I am in good company because if you actually read my previous response Chen Xiaowang says he does not know everything either and I am absolutely not telling you who Chen Xiaowang is, look it up.

But if you must know

Over 17 years of taiji 15 specifically in Yang style in a rather good lineage

probably now 3 years in Chen, some of that with the Chen family.

If you think that is a little then by all means go with that my friend

You don't know what neijia is and you want to make Wing Chun a Neijia ok here you go this is what you have to do

The only people you really have to convince are Sun Lutang and Huang Zongxi but since Sun Lutang died in 1932 and Huang Zongxi died in 1695 I guess it is to late to convince them that Wing Chun is a neijia, damn the luck. One started this mess and the other defined it. But both are basically saying, amongst a few other things, that it has to be linked to Taoists and most certainly not Buddhists.

And while we're talking Taoists just in case you are thinking of a way to associate Wing Chun with Taoists is through Zhang Sanfeng, the Taoist said to have come up with Neijia and Taijiquan; it is likely he is a myth, but if you do wish to go there you need to choose one to make it more believable

Here are a few

Zhang Sanfeng who may have lived in either the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) or the Sung Dynasty (969-1126) or the Southern Sung Dynasty (1127-1279) and someone did make a reference that would put him in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) but for any of the histories to work he can't be from the Ming Dynasty so I wouldn't choose that one.

Are you beginning to see how silly this whole thing is?

So someone takes you off balance and throws you on the ground with such a relaxed ease and grace you just can't believe you were thrown like a Yang Taiji master or someone takes you out by slamming you square in the head and/or stepping on your knee like a Sanda master might or they come straight at you so fast you can't counter and hit you like a truck knocking you backwards 6 feet like a Xingyiquan master might do or they grab hold of you and throw you on the ground so hard you can't get up like a Shuaijiao master might or move around you so fast you don't know where they went and then they whack you in the back of the head so hard they knock you out like a Bagua master might do or they grab you lock you and then hurt you real bad like a qinna master might do or they hit you with a flurry of punches that all hit the mark real hard like you might get if a Tongbei master was attacking or they hit you in the chest so hard you forget how to breathe like a Wing Chun master might do what difference does it make if they are labeled Neijia or Waijia?

I have to say after a few days and several posts on this I no longer care, call it what you will it does not really matter anyway

But I will leave you with this, one of the possible origins or at least one possible reason Neijia got stressed to much and hung on so long was that it was away to make one superior to another without having to prove it. And this was propagated by less than stellar pupils of illiterate masters. It was so much easier to make up for a lack of skill and training by claiming the superiority of say taiji (calling it a Neijia) over say Hung Ga (calling it waijia). This way the less than stellar taiji practitioner could get off looking good and not taking the challenge (which would likely get him killed) by claiming his style was a neijia and by far superior to the lowly waijia and he just simply did not want to hurt the poor fellow that wasted his time training Hung Ga. And to be honest I have seen this very thing used today, had it used against me once actually in a comment that was "I don't DO Martial arts... I DO Taiji" Funny thing was I do taiji too and we were talking about taiji shanshou (form only) at the time of which the other guy was absolutely awful at.

Also in one of the multiple threads you have on Wing Chun ui a Neijia that also does not seem to be getting the response you wish I asked you a whole lot of questions I await your answers.