The Military Discussion of Wing Chun

[Yoshiyahu]

Lets start it up here...One of moderator insisted we were too far off topic...so here we go.....


Past conversation:

CuongNhuka

Martial Talk
Senior Master
Posts: 2,034
Casino Cash: $4361
Thanks: 57
Thanked 81 Times in 44 Posts
1,000 Post Club
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NE
Age: 18
Rep Power: 6

Re: New Weapons of Wing Chun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
I know one of my uncles fought in North Korea I think in the fifties maybe or the sixities.

Things have changed massivly since then. Things have changed massivly in the last 10 years.
__________________
I believe every style of Kung Fu can be used in fight. Because when it has been invented by ancestor for only one purpose which is fighting. And if it can be used in fighting, it will disappear for no one whould choose it and practise it.
The problem is that nowaday how many people have learnt the fighting part of the style. Because no one needs it for fighting. - ggg214


Actually I remember when some of Late Uncles often told me how they learn how to kill a man with their bare hands. They were in the Army and learn some pretty nasty techniques. I am not sure what style they learn. But they are deceased now. I know one of my uncles fought in North Korea I think in the fifties maybe or the sixities. I can't remember.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Si-Je
oh, I'm not familiar with alot of the WT/WC lineages, just Sifu Fung, and Sifu Emin, that's all I know about Wing Chun.

It seems the Army doesn't get into combatives as much, but it makes me think of my Dad. He was Army in Vietnam, and he ended up using ALOT of hand to hand in the city, and the jungle. Yet, they didn't even teach the Marines anywhere what they do now. Much less the Army.
He carried a .45, a machette, and a knife on him just about everywhere. They had to learn hand to hand on the fly there, I'd hate the Army guys now to be in that same situation. I'd figure they would learn from the past.

But, the Marines do definately use way more of their combat training. And Hubbie does incorporate the MCMAP training he learned a little bit, mostly with the ground fighting and weapons training. And he incorporates WC/WT concepts and principles into the MCMAP weapons he teaches. All the WT/WC is the same as what he was taught by his two teachers.
Heck, that one technique he's been working with me on the knife jab for about a year. (we only run through it once or twice a month, not alot of focus there or time to train it) So, I'm just now starting to get the gist of what he's teaching with the weapons.


Interesting discussion by Si Je


Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmund BlackAdder
Maybe people with more than a couple weeks boot and a little (out of date) book learning would be more credible? Either way, what does any of this have to do with Wing Chun? Last I checked, neither the US Army or the USMC fight with butterfly swords, or bo, and I haven't found a branch of Wing Chun that drills with fire arms. Maybe this topic could be on Wing Chun, and the military branch penis examining taken someplace else where the rutting of dogs, waving of pricks, and telling of tall tales of fiction and seamen is enjoyed? Penthouse Letters comes to my mind actually.

Wow.. just wow. I was really digging your Black Adder pic and am a big fan of that show. Thought you were cool.
What is being discussed here is the "mindset of wing chun." and the introduction of wing chun theory, principles, and training in useage of weaponry for today. I gave a great breakdown of knife defense that is ACTUALLY used in USMC MCMAP, but that seems to have been missed.
Mystic Wolf's fellow marine pal has been bringing me up to speed with the battle mentality difference between the Army and the USMC in correlation to WC/WT approach to fighting with or without weapons.
Wing Chun is a more mental approach to your "problem" or conflict than anything else you train as a fighter. If your theory, strategy, and concept is wrong, you lose the fight. In war with military weaponry your dead.

No one's bragging here, or swinging any appendenges around, we're talking war strategy, fight and defense strategy.

Okay, how would you use a gun with WC/WT principles and concepts?
1. Keep it in the centerline when you aim, or when you shoot your target.
2. Follow up after first shot. (chain punching)
3. Adapt and flow from one attacker to another.
4. keep your movements small and precise when shooting, aiming, or changing targets.
5. "minimum amount of brute strength" don't waste ammo. (one shot one kill, effeciency, follow through with next shots only if target isn't down)
6. attack and defend at the same time. (don't shoot at attacking target without "covering" yourself first. no need to run screaming into the night in the open shooting everywhere with no "cover".)
7. Attack is defense, defense is attack each the cause and result of the other. (they shoot at you, you shoot back, figure it out)

Here are some very very basic WC/WT concepts and principles that could be used in modern warfare with modern weapons.
And I'm just a civy, but as Einsten says: " imagination is more important than knowledge."

 

[MBuzzy]

Well, unfortunately, I can't comment on the Wing Chun aspect of this discussion, so that limits my inputs a bit although I'm curious as to where this might go.

I will say that both the Army Combatives program as well as the MCMAP Program are excellent systems of combat fighting, but they are just that, combat fighting. They were developed with the principles of several martial arts in mind, but were specifically adapted for military use. For example, they both have portions on using the rifle as a weapon. They both teach you to use your body armor and helmet as a weapon and use them to your advantage, as well as use your opponent's against him.

As for who uses what more....honestly, with the Army Combatives training that I have and the time that I spent with them and with the Marines that I've met and trained with, I can say that they both spend a great deal of time on their respective fighting systems, it is an important part of training, it is included in their evaluations and both use it in real combat. Believe it or not, Army, Marines, AND Air Force do quite a bit of "on the ground" urban style missions. House clearning, Civil Peace keeping, etc. Many of those missions require the use of their combatives training, but to be perfectly honest, in most cases, it is used the same way that the police use their training - in controlling an aggressor. In today's world, not in hand to hand, fight to the death kind of comabt. Both styles are effective, both styles are nasty, and both styles are used in the field.

Incidentally, the Air Force is starting up its combatives program as well. Up to now, all of us who deployed received training in Army Combatives for any Convoy or outside the wire missions.

For reference, the source documents for these styles are:

Army Combatives: FM 21-150
MCMAP Program: Guidance document: MCRP 3-02B
MCMAP generation document: MCO 1500.54A
MCMAP standards document: MCO 1510.122A

 

[Si-Je]

Basic principles of Wing Chun:

1. Simplicity: keep movements simple and uncomplicated. techniques should be easy to learn and apply, do not involve difficult manoeuvres.

-can be used in any type of combative situation with or without weaponry. Military tactics used with team or squad.

2. Directness: the shortest time and distance taken to strike (or shoot) opponent.
-effenciency in battle on or off the field of combat, war, or just simple self defense.

3. Economy of movement: minimum necessary movement used in all techniques.
-same same with "military manoeuvres" don't waste time and energy when engaging an enemy. Back to simplicity, and directness.

4.Minimum use of Brute Strength: use deflection rather than hard blocking, redirect the opponent's force.
- ex. why use your whole team to take out one enemy? effenciency. Do what needs to be done, don't overdue actions taken to engage single or small enemy force. even pressure or force to what is given no more. Don't be wasteful or overkill.

5. Practicality: explains itself by the very definition of the word. A "show of force" is not needed, do what works for given situation. Be problematic and practical in dealing with combat situation, no bravado, back to simplicity.

These basic concepts can and WILL be effective if applied to any situation whether it's combat, dealing with relationships, life, financial problems, dealing with projects at work, etc.
And they're even easier to apply to military combat, because it is designed for combative concepts in dealing with physical conflict.
Be creative, think and imagine how this can make a team, soldier, etc. more effective and effecient in combat, police actions, "peacekeeping" missions whatever. (peace keeping, that's funny. It's a nice way of saying constant conflict and combat in the name of keeping the peace. So, use minimum amout of brute force in this scenario)

 

[MBuzzy]

That is very interesting and I really like the straightforward way of expressing those ideas that you have stated. The first thing I thought of was one of the Military's most basic concepts, the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC). This series of regulations and ideas governs how we conduct war. It is based on three principles: Military Necessity, Distinction, and Proportionality.

Military Necessity is of course that we only use Military force when it is required to achieve a military objective

Distinction is ensuring that the target you are aiming at is the one that you engage. It is primarily intended to ensure that Combatants and Non-Combatants or Illegal Combatants are distinguished from one another.

Proportionality is only using the amount of force necessary to complete the mission. i.e we don't use a nuclear weapon to eliminate a single man.

I can see a direct relationship between our basic concepts and yours. Most of all, our Proportionality relates to your Economy of Movement and Minimum use of Brute Strength. Of course there is also a relationship between minimum use of Brute Strength and Military Necessity...they seem to fit very well.

Is there a concept within WC that dictates when and if an attack or defense should be made? i.e. using your knowledge only for defense or for a "good" purpose?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing against Wing Chun but where does Wing Chun come from? China

What does China teach its military? Sanda

Wing Chun is simple and direct but it takes to long to train for military purposes, IMO.

Sanda is a conglomerate of multiple CMA styles. Sanda has no specific stance it has no concern about Qi or any other internal and it is rather simple and incredibly direct in application, Covers hand strikes and kicking, Qinna and Shuaijiao. And it does it with hard training in a short period of time. There are different levels of Sanda meaning that you teach to the average military and that you teach to special forces but it is still takes much less time than Wing Chun.

Now with that said do I feel that a person that has been trained in Wing Chun can be effective in a military situation? Yes I do, but it will take a lot longer than most military training programs want to take to get there. China use to train Xingyiquan to its military and Bajiquan was used in Military as well and if you come across a master of either in a fight you are in for a world of hurt if you are not up to snuff but they both take way to long. Bajiquan is/was big on Taiwan but they teach a specific MA to the Taiwan military that is not Baji. (sorry the name slipped my mind)

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post I love it

Basic principles of Wing Chun:

1. Simplicity: keep movements simple and uncomplicated. techniques should be easy to learn and apply, do not involve difficult manoeuvres.

-can be used in any type of combative situation with or without weaponry. Military tactics used with team or squad.

2. Directness: the shortest time and distance taken to strike (or shoot) opponent.
-effenciency in battle on or off the field of combat, war, or just simple self defense.

3. Economy of movement: minimum necessary movement used in all techniques.
-same same with "military manoeuvres" don't waste time and energy when engaging an enemy. Back to simplicity, and directness.

4.Minimum use of Brute Strength: use deflection rather than hard blocking, redirect the opponent's force.
- ex. why use your whole team to take out one enemy? effenciency. Do what needs to be done, don't overdue actions taken to engage single or small enemy force. even pressure or force to what is given no more. Don't be wasteful or overkill.

5. Practicality: explains itself by the very definition of the word. A "show of force" is not needed, do what works for given situation. Be problematic and practical in dealing with combat situation, no bravado, back to simplicity.

These basic concepts can and WILL be effective if applied to any situation whether it's combat, dealing with relationships, life, financial problems, dealing with projects at work, etc.
And they're even easier to apply to military combat, because it is designed for combative concepts in dealing with physical conflict.
Be creative, think and imagine how this can make a team, soldier, etc. more effective and effecient in combat, police actions, "peacekeeping" missions whatever. (peace keeping, that's funny. It's a nice way of saying constant conflict and combat in the name of keeping the peace. So, use minimum amout of brute force in this scenario)

 

[skinters]

Wing Chun is simple and direct but it takes to long to train for military purposes, IMO.

wan kam leung (most in wing chun know his name) trained the VIP protection unit or the G4 unit in hongkong , the first of its kind as im aware.to me this is just one small step from teaching it to the armed forces,of course the G4 unit did not learn the complete system, but what they were shown was more than enough for what they needed.

 

[Xue Sheng]

wan kam leung (most in wing chun know his name) trained the VIP protection unit or the G4 unit in hongkong , the first of its kind as im aware.to me this is just one small step from teaching it to the armed forces,of course the G4 unit did not learn the complete system, but what they were shown was more than enough for what they needed.

But if they are going to take it down to just some of its parts is it still Wing Chun?

And I have no doubt Wing Chun could be effective for that purpose

 

[skinters]

But if they are going to take it down to just some of its parts is it still Wing Chun?

And I have no doubt Wing Chun could be effective for that purpose

well if i dont do the full karma sutra when i make love,am i not still making love?

 

[Xue Sheng]

well if i dont do the full karma sutra when i make love,am i not still making love?

Yes but you are not following the karma sutra and the karma sutra is a book about love making not a style to be followed like Wing Chun or a label describing love making like Wing Chun is a label for a specific styel of CMA.

To me Wing Chun includes Sil lim tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee as well as Muk Yan Jong.

Now if I train only Sil lum tao can I call myself a wing chun guy?

Can I teach peopel Wing Chun?

If I only do Muk Yan Jong and nothing else am I training wing chun?

If I take just bits a pieces of Sil lim tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee as well as Muk Yan Jong and slap them together to train someone is that Wing Chun?

IMO no to all but that is only my opinion.

If however any of this is still Wing Chun then Yiquan is still Xingyiquan, JKD is still Wing Chun, Xingyiquan is still Xinyiquan and Judo is still Jujutsu

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Great answer skinters...i got a better one....If I teach my Son Chain Punches, Side Stance and Sil Lim Tao...When he fights with that is it still wing chun...even though he has very little?

well if i dont do the full karma sutra when i make love,am i not still making love?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well Xue Sheng...If someone learns all the drills of Wing Chun and applications and Chi sau...but doesn't learn any of the forms...Would they be using Wing Chun when they spar or fight?

What are the three terrors of Wing Chun? Tan Sau,Bong Sau and Fok Sau. As long as you see these you know its Wing Chun...

Yes but you are not following the karma sutra and the karma sutra is a book about love making not a style to be followed like Wing Chun or a label describing love making like Wing Chun is a label for a specific styel of CMA.

To me Wing Chun includes Sil lim tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee as well as Muk Yan Jong.

Now if I train only Sil lum tao can I call myself a wing chun guy?

Can I teach peopel Wing Chun?

If I only do Muk Yan Jong and nothing else am I training wing chun?

If I take just bits a pieces of Sil lim tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee as well as Muk Yan Jong and slap them together to train someone is that Wing Chun?

IMO no to all but that is only my opinion.

If however any of this is still Wing Chun then Yiquan is still Xingyiquan, JKD is still Wing Chun, Xingyiquan is still Xinyiquan and Judo is still Jujutsu

 

[Si-Je]

No honey. I can't make killing better. Just do the least you can do without getting all ya'll in trouble.
That's a hard decision , and up to every individual that is ever in that situation.
Take the basic concepts of WC/WT and do what you HAVE TO to survive.
there are alot of non combatives in every war. I can't tell you the "right" thing to do. I'm not there. But, I can hopefully give you insiration on how to be compasionate. I know it's hard.
Their not compassionate towards you guys, they really think that we are all evil. But, that is your burden, to show them we are not.
But, make sure you don't let them hurt your friends. But,make sure your friends don't freak out and hurt the people too much.
That would make us a real enemy.
I'm sorry I can't give you

That is very interesting and I really like the straightforward way of expressing those ideas that you have stated. The first thing I thought of was one of the Military's most basic concepts, the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC). This series of regulations and ideas governs how we conduct war. It is based on three principles: Military Necessity, Distinction, and Proportionality.

Military Necessity is of course that we only use Military force when it is required to achieve a military objective

Distinction is ensuring that the target you are aiming at is the one that you engage. It is primarily intended to ensure that Combatants and Non-Combatants or Illegal Combatants are distinguished from one another.

Proportionality is only using the amount of force necessary to complete the mission. i.e we don't use a nuclear weapon to eliminate a single man.

I can see a direct relationship between our basic concepts and yours. Most of all, our Proportionality relates to your Economy of Movement and Minimum use of Brute Strength. Of course there is also a relationship between minimum use of Brute Strength and Military Necessity...they seem to fit very well.

Is there a concept within WC that dictates when and if an attack or defense should be made? i.e. using your knowledge only for defense or for a "good" purpose?

 

[CuongNhuka]

They were developed with the principles of several martial arts in mind, but were specifically adapted for military use. For example, they both have portions on using the rifle as a weapon. They both teach you to use your body armor and helmet as a weapon and use them to your advantage, as well as use your opponent's against him.
.......
As for who uses what more....honestly, with the Army Combatives training that I have and the time that I spent with them and with the Marines that I've met and trained with, I can say that they both spend a great deal of time on their respective fighting systems, it is an important part of training, it is included in their evaluations and both use it in real combat.

Really? I have a few buddies that are Army, and when they got back from Basic they told they spent all of 6 hours on combatives (another 2 on bayonet and pugile stick). I convinced them to demostrate, and what they showed me was mostly really simple BJJ. And if it wasn't, it was really simple Kick Boxing. Or fairly advanced BJJ that had been dumbied down to the point were I had to laugh. And one of them is a medic, so I'd think he'd be high on the list of people getting the good stuff.

...for any Convoy or outside the wire missions.

You guys do convoys? Wow... I'm kidding. You know I'm only messing with you Buzzy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well Xue Sheng...If someone learns all the drills of Wing Chun and applications and Chi sau...but doesn't learn any of the forms...Would they be using Wing Chun when they spar or fight?

What are the three terrors of Wing Chun? Tan Sau,Bong Sau and Fok Sau. As long as you see these you know its Wing Chun...

Then JKD is Wing Chun, Yiquan is still Xingyiquan, Xingyiquan is still Xinyiquan and Judo is still Jujutsu and what then is Sanda since it has parts of multiple CMA styles.... could it be Wing Chun or Taiji or Bagua or Changchuan or could it be Shuaijiao. Likely not Wing Chun since it does not have a stance nor does it train Tan Sau,Bong Sau and Fok Sau or at least I don't think it does. It does take power form the feet, direct it with the waist and send it where needed and it does train tuishou both big parts of taiji so I guess it is Taiji.

OK, I'm done. I don't train Wing Chun anymore and I never got past Sil Lim Tao but I tend to feel if you take parts of it and slap them back together and train them to someone else it is no longer Wing Chun and it is HIGHLY unlikely that any military training application would emphasize or train qi so again would it still be Wing Chun?

If you were to train Wing Chun to Military personel I do believe it would be very useful but it would take time.

 

[MBuzzy]

No honey. I can't make killing better. Just do the least you can do without getting all ya'll in trouble.
That's a hard decision , and up to every individual that is ever in that situation.
Take the basic concepts of WC/WT and do what you HAVE TO to survive.
there are alot of non combatives in every war. I can't tell you the "right" thing to do. I'm not there. But, I can hopefully give you insiration on how to be compasionate. I know it's hard.
Their not compassionate towards you guys, they really think that we are all evil. But, that is your burden, to show them we are not.
But, make sure you don't let them hurt your friends. But,make sure your friends don't freak out and hurt the people too much.
That would make us a real enemy.
I'm sorry I can't give you

I agree with you completely! Although I think I may have phrased my question wrong.

In the military and in my style of martial arts, we spend a lot of time on "target selection." In the military, it is about ensuring that you're shooting at the right person for the right reasons. In Soo Bahk Do, it is about using your art and knowledge for defense of yourself and others around you - not for offense or for personal gain. I was wondering if WC had a similar principle that tried to guide its practitioners in the use of their knowledge?

 

[MBuzzy]

I really don't think that we will ever find common ground in whether the full Wing Chun style can be used as a direct translation for military applications. I think that the key principle - of this discussion at least - is whether some of the ideas, principles, and possibly even some of the techniques can be used in military applications.

No Traditional Martial Art will EVER be translated directly to military applications. There is too much time involved and too much excess. The combatives that the military teaches are designed for the purposes that we need them for, i.e. combat in gear, with someone who wants to kill you. And while those ideas may also be used in many martial arts styles....it is applied much differently for the Military.

Personally, I say that WC along with just about every Martial Art can have portions of it and ideas borrowed toward Military Applications and anyone who has TMA training will most certainly have a leg up in learning military Combatives.

 

[MBuzzy]

Really? I have a few buddies that are Army, and when they got back from Basic they told they spent all of 6 hours on combatives (another 2 on bayonet and pugile stick). I convinced them to demostrate, and what they showed me was mostly really simple BJJ. And if it wasn't, it was really simple Kick Boxing. Or fairly advanced BJJ that had been dumbied down to the point were I had to laugh. And one of them is a medic, so I'd think he'd be high on the list of people getting the good stuff.

Just like pretty much everything - it depends who you talk to. I'm also an "n of 1," but I was taught quite a bit of Army Combatives during Combat Skills Training. My understanding is that a lot of the Combatives comes during "Sergeant's time," AIT, other advanced training schools, etc. I really don't know just how much time is devoted during Basic, although I would guess not a whole lot. That isn't what Basic is about. Of course, being an Officer, I have a different perspective on Basic and what needs to be accomplished there. Also, the Army people that I have interacted with are generally E-6 and above and have been primarily at Training Bases (Army Instructors assigned to us) or in Iraq.

If you want to see what it is, look up the FM, it is all right there. I have no clue how much BJJ it is, because I don't know BJJ, but I know that when Army Combatives and I believe MCMAP was developed, they took ideas and influences from a wide range of styles. The Air Force is developing their Combatives program and I've heard that it borrows heavily from Hapkido, BJJ, Army Combatives, and some other styles.

You guys do convoys? Wow... I'm kidding. You know I'm only messing with you Buzzy.

I've heard that from plenty of Marines....and Army for that matter. But you'd be surprise, I sure was! I'm an AF Civil Engineer and I've got 28 Combat Convoys.....I know some AF loggies that have WAY WAY WAY more - as in, every day....and some AF cops that do as many convoys as an Army or Marine CLP.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Jeet Kune Dao is actually considered to be modified Wing Chun...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do


JKD principles

Economy of motion

Be like water

Stop hits & stop kicks

Simultaneous parrying & punching

No high kicks

Centerline


Efficiency - An attack that reaches its mark.

Directness - Doing what comes naturally in a learned way.

Simplicity - Thinking in an uncomplicated manner; without ornamentation.


Qoute from Wikipedia:

The core concepts of JKD are derived from Wing Chun (such as center line control, vertical punching, trapping, and forward pressure). Through his research, Lee incorporated the fluidity of European boxing and fencing stances.

So it all sound similiar to me...What better way to teach Wing Chun to western minded folks but include European sports or styles with it. But the Core is Wing Chun...

Then JKD is Wing Chun, Yiquan is still Xingyiquan, Xingyiquan is still Xinyiquan and Judo is still Jujutsu and what then is Sanda since it has parts of multiple CMA styles.... could it be Wing Chun or Taiji or Bagua or Changchuan or could it be Shuaijiao. Likely not Wing Chun since it does not have a stance nor does it train Tan Sau,Bong Sau and Fok Sau or at least I don't think it does. It does take power form the feet, direct it with the waist and send it where needed and it does train tuishou both big parts of taiji so I guess it is Taiji.

OK, I'm done. I don't train Wing Chun anymore and I never got past Sil Lim Tao but I tend to feel if you take parts of it and slap them back together and train them to someone else it is no longer Wing Chun and it is HIGHLY unlikely that any military training application would emphasize or train qi so again would it still be Wing Chun?

If you were to train Wing Chun to Military personel I do believe it would be very useful but it would take time.

 

[seasoned]

Really? I have a few buddies that are Army, and when they got back from Basic they told they spent all of 6 hours on combatives (another 2 on bayonet and pugile stick). I convinced them to demostrate, and what they showed me was mostly really simple BJJ. And if it wasn't, it was really simple Kick Boxing. Or fairly advanced BJJ that had been dumbied down to the point were I had to laugh. And one of them is a medic, so I'd think he'd be high on the list of people getting the good stuff.



You guys do convoys? Wow... I'm kidding. You know I'm only messing with you Buzzy.

You are very correct. My son just graduated from basic combat training, with minimal hand to hand training. They save the good stuff for special forces. He also has a buddy that went into the Marines with a TKD back ground, and was very good. During hell week, when they free for all, his comment was that everything you were taught before boot camp went out the window, when you had many guys on you all at once.