First, my gratitude for the good thoughts and interesting conversations! I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond to the discussion going on here!
SgtMac-some good questions. I originally thought I was getting into karate to get in better shape and release some pent up aggression, but I have since learned that it is an incredible learning experience that directs my agression, builds my body/mind/spirit, teaches me much about my world and the physics that lay beneath, challenges me, builds up my self-esteem as well as my self-awareness, and so much more. I can't begin to say how much this has given and pushed me in many good directions. Perhaps, that is why I am liking the no belt system I am in now, as I am focusing on the journey and pushing myself physically and mentally. It's not just fun, it's challenging, and I'm loving it!
I find your thoughts on casual versus serious martial artist interesting. I think I have always considered myself a casual martial artist because I can only train with my sensei one day/week, and only train on my own 2-4 times a week. But I take my training seriously when I train, and I find it incorporates into so much of my daily life in lots of little ways.
Just what does seperate a casual MAist from a serious one?
Satt, Omar, JDenver, and Wo Fat-yup, that's what i'm focusing on now, training and the journey..not "the next step" to X belt.
I really don't look at it as Self improvement though, I simply look at it as learning and enjoying the process. I guess it's the same thing, but I'm doing it because of my interest in the subject...not simply to improve myself. There is an innate sense of joy missing when I think of doing something for "self improvement". Now, that doesn't mean I don't do things for that very goal, and I think improving your self on general principle is a recommended idea. However, I am enough of a hedonist that I try to incorporate enjoyment into what I do for my own improvement as well. For example, karate, weights, and belly dancing for physical fitness...all feel good and DO good. While I wouldn't sit down and read a calculus book for it's own sake, I would pull out an advanced astronomy or physics book for the enjoyment of learning the theories. I've also been known to pull out a chemistry book to understand the properties of various herbs and plants I'm working with at home...so balance is the key, IMHO. Omar, when you use the term self-improvement, what exactly does that conjur in your mind?
Grenadier, MJS, Andrew, Tallgeese, Jarrod, girlbug, and Bruno-I can appreciate your points about a clearly defined progression as well as rewarding progress. For me, though, to have my sensei tell me "well done" is reward (especially as not something I get every session, so it's not a "bone" tossed carelessly). I guess that goes to Jarrod's point about the worth of a rank and compliment, as well as what each individual feels is a "reward".
Still, in running a school, a many have said, that reward and progression may be necessary. I like the idea about helping a student past the beginning so they can move towards, perhaps, more of an ideal. Start the journey and get to a point where you suddenly realize you are enjoying the journey as much as the destination....cool!
Andrew's point about the damage that can be done, though is a fair one. In my last dojo, there was much harm caused to the small group by the appearance of partiality in advancement, and it harmed the school as well as the student.
Tallgeese, I admire the middle ground you seem to have found with your students. It allows rank and progression without focusing on that. Not an easy boundary to walk for many, and it sounds like you do well. Perhaps, in time, I will find "well done" not enough...and want a testing...we'll cross that bridge when we get there as I have SOOO MUCH to learn right now!
Girlbug, I find it sad that the self motivated student is rare..is that the fault of the student or the teacher...or is fault the right word?
Bobby135 and Haze-It makes sense that age and maturity could affect the appeal of one type of training over another. I don't think that means one type is better than another, though. I just think that different mental approaches will seek different things. I would hope those that started martial arts as children or teens, and continue into thier adult hood, would definately be seeking something different and more focused as they matured and grew older. As an adult beginner, I think the whole belt ranking system is interesting, but it's not as important to me, at least not at this time. I may go in complete reverse and WANT a ranking system once I've spent a few years training in this matter. It will be interesting to see. I wonder...of the students you began training with as a child or teen...how many are still training and do they seek different training methods now?
still learning, black lion, blindside, celtic crippler, ap Oweyn, and juikata-indeed...belt colour does not equate to level of skill and seems to involve less ego.
I also agree that having no defined path does seem to allow for more experimentation and adaptation to the moment. I can see how that could be seen as a path with strong potential for mediocrity, but I think it ultimately comes down to the teacher and the student. Mediocre students will often be mediocre whether they train belt or no belt, as they will seek to go only as far as pushed.
Juikata-I can also see how that freedom to adaptation can allow one to explore the concepts of ki and flow and determine if they work for you or if they are merely mystical bunk....that really is up to each person to decide. I've seen good martial artists with both beliefs. I respect both paths and believe they run together and parallel more often than not. But I also believe biodiversity is the best model for survival of any knowledge or species...so I'll leave it at that.
Now, the untrained mind has potential to go either way, and I think the typical younger and/or beginner student is more likely to need or benefit from the occasional push or the closely defined structure.
..but it again comes back to why you started to train in the first place. For me, at this moment in my training, the no belt does seem to equate to focusing on skill. Perhaps it is just a better fit for my personality...at this point, I really don't know...only time will show if I train better or worse. For now, I feel like i'm training harder and learning much more.
Ap Oweyn, I can appreciate the belief that you simply won't train as hard if you don't have the structure, either through a belt or through your own design, to create goals. But my question to you, and anyone else, is what do you mean by training hard? In my last group, I felt like I did a lot of going through the motions and prepping for the next test. With my current teacher, I train hard every session. I am dripping wet, and I've learned AT LEAST 2-5 new things that advance my understanding and physical practice. In a once a week session, I am growing my mind and body....I would consider that training much harder....now...to your point..perhaps it was the implementation. But what do you consider training "hard"?
Phoenix-thanks for that lovely mental image of Al in his tighty whiteys:uhyeah:...but your point is well made. I've seen and heard too many horror stories about folks with swelled heads, perhaps from tying thier belts too tight? But I think you are right..perhaps it's more what is compatible with the person and thier needs at the time, rather than one way is superior to another. I would certainly agree that any rank critieria needs to be clear and equally applied to all. See above...been there as so many others, not pretty and not truly fair to anyone involved.
Bekkilyn-being a beginner myself (wow...actually beginning my third year) I too have SOOoooOO much to learn..fortunatley, there are some really good teachers out there!
Sorry for the long post, and hope I got the right impact of each of your posts...if not, please correct me..and thanks for the good discussion!
