Black Belt Mentality

[Olde Phart]

So true.

This quote may seem to be at odds with the one above, but I don't think so. They can co-exist and be mutually supportable. Just as in the military where you salute the rank (or Medal of Honor) and not the person, extending a bow to a senior (black) belt should be looked at the same way. If one has been taught per the first quote, they should have no problem bowing to a senior belt in this spirit.

As for the senior belt expecting to be bowed to, again, if they have been taught per the first quote, they will see the bow in a similar light - recognition of rank and not his personal greatness. If they have not been taught in this manner abuses of rank can happen. Such bowing can also be seen as a sign of respect to the instructor who promoted them. Afterall, his students are in part a reflection of him.

Respect is a two-way street. The lower belt deserves respect for his willingness to learn and his effort. When a senior belt returns a bow, he should have this thought in mind. Humility and respect are always proper in a dojo.
This is true "black belt mentality."

We always treat each other with respect when in the "teacher/student" or "higher belt vs lower belt" scenario. It's always "Ma'am" or "Sir." I get an extra measure because I'm much older than anyone. There's a 3rd dan in our dojang that is in his 20's. I'm only a 1st. He always addresses me as "Sir" and is extremely helpful with my slower learning curve. When we are about the same rank, we basically call each other by names, but I still get the "Sir." Gray hair has its advantages!

 

[Holmejr]

Hypocrisy: Always an issue when dealing with fallen man.
The sooner one understand sin, the less bewildered they will be…

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is what we might call a "broken narrative" or in religious terms "Hypocrite." But the reality is in my opinion, that the problem comes from the friction created when you take something made for the battlefield and convert it into a for profit industry.

The far reaching effects of the trajectory of martial arts taught as a business model "for profit" instead of "for battle" will only be understood by taking time to really understand it.

But simply put, a civilian, "for profit" dojos by the nature of their existence must make the experience about the student.

You will not find a true mature warrior culture within the belt grading culture. It just can't exist there.

I don’t think the issue really has much to do with the fact that it’s taught for profit. The issue can happen in train-for-free circles, too. It’s more about some practices that promote inflated ego - some of them ironically so.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree with this, partially. Not the modelling results part, but that reciting them does nothing to encourage the values. Those tenets have use, so long as everyone knows what the tenets are and what they mean (with children this would have to be a discussion). On it's own, they are not useful, but when combined with modeling, it serves to prime the students to look for and emulate those values, where otherwise they may not be totally aware.

I think this is especially true for kids/teenagers, but can also be true for adults. I'd also argue that, if you really want to prime people, you should do it at the beginning of class, not the end, but I could see arguments going either way.

I don’t think rote recitation does much to reinforce modeling or promote contemplation of those tenets.

Discussion would go much further.

 

[Buka]

In the dojang where I train, there are tenets that we recite after every class: Humility, Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, Indomitable Spirit. While perseverance, self-control and indomitable spirit are the characteristics we all use in order to have success in our training, my question revolves around the first three: Humility, Courtesy and Integrity. The thought is that true "black belt mentality" is something that is present both in the dojang and in public. Yet, it seems that some black belts end up being real "horse's patooties" in the pride quotient. They're "somebody" and ought to be respected as such. Any of you experience that in your own dojo/dojang/gym?

We would also frequently discuss the tenets of Bushido, which are pretty much the same as what you described above.

I never experienced horse's patooties in our dojo, nor any of the other dojos I used to go to on a regular basis. (friends' dojos)

But I'll tell you an observation I've seen consistently throughout the years. The greatest Martial Artists and fighters I've known, met or trained with, are all very humble. I don't know what they're like at home, at least not most of them, but they were all helpful, sweet, knowledgable and humble. Which is, to me, sort of frightening.

Bullies, especially loud ones, are all complete and utter pussies. And that's not a cliche, it just is.
Loud, boisterous Martial people, those that you would never consider humble, are pretty much the same way.

That's why when I meet a truly humble Martial Artist, the back of my mind always says, "Tough dude, be careful."

The other thing I have to remind myself of -

I've watched the UFC from the git go. I like to watch fighting sports of all kinds, always have. Remember Tito Ortiz, the Huntington Beach Bad Boy? I couldn't stand him. But one day I was with one of my oldest, long time friends in the Arts. He was the boxing commissioner of Massachusetts at the time.

I didn't realize he had become friends with Tito Ortiz. He told me "You would love Tito, he's one of the humblest people you'll ever meet. The whole bad boy image is a business poly he's used in the fight game, which is entertainment sports."

I'll never forget that. Maybe some of the other fighters I see on TV are the same way, I don't know.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I don’t think the issue really has much to do with the fact that it’s taught for profit. The issue can happen in train-for-free circles, too. It’s more about some practices that promote inflated ego - some of them ironically so.

I agree it's not just about for profit. Also that my point only partially address the layers of issues. But training for free, still involves no skin in the game/no mission/no real expected upcoming battle, will result in the same lack of a true warrior culture.

 

[Gyakuto]

If you take an arrogant, disrespectful, condescending person and subject them to the rigours of, say Japanese swordsmanship, with hours of hard, sweaty training at 4am, sitting under freezing cold waterfalls chanting to the gods of martial valour and skills, learning philosophy and reading tales of respected, noble warriors of yore in an attempt to absorb some of that nobility, you will, in a few short years time forge an arrogant, disrespectful, condescending person who knows how to use a sword! Don’t believe the hype that martial arts, in particular, improve the character. It is no more true than it would be for someone learning needlepoint or watercolour painting!

Some of the worst human beings I’ve met have been martial artists of long standing.

 

[Olde Phart]

So, Kwai Chang Caine was inherently a "good person", benefitting little from the teachings of the Shaolin monastery and the Shaolin bounty hunter sent to kill Caine was inherently a "bad person" from the start and benefitted little from the teachings of the Shaolin monastery. Hopefully, this thread doesn't descent into one related to depictions of martial arts in the movie industry (there already is one on this site!), but it does serve to illustrate how two different students can submit themselves to the same teaching and end up completely different in its use and application.

 

[Olde Phart]

I've appreciated the input from the followers of this particular thread. Your comments have made me able to respond almost to everyone. It has been more like a conversation and expression of opinions rather than a belligerent exchange of unchangeable views. That being the case, let's continue with a Part 2 extension.

Since we all seem to be somewhat agreed on the thought that the teachings and format of various schools of MA don't seem to change the basic nature of the student, does the instructor bear the responsibility to "weed out" the bad apples and either refund their money or simply tell them that they will no longer be taught there? Kinda like the restaurants that "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? How about students refusing to continue attendance if the instructor is "gonna allow just anyone to attend"?

 

[Jared Traveler]

The martial arts were never intended

I've appreciated the input from the followers of this particular thread. Your comments have made me able to respond almost to everyone. It has been more like a conversation and expression of opinions rather than a belligerent exchange of unchangeable views. That being the case, let's continue with a Part 2 extension.

Since we all seem to be somewhat agreed on the thought that the teachings and format of various schools of MA don't seem to change the basic nature of the student, does the instructor bear the responsibility to "weed out" the bad apples and either refund their money or simply tell them that they will no longer be taught there? Kinda like the restaurants that "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? How about students refusing to continue attendance if the instructor is "gonna allow just anyone to attend"?

I love the fact you are addressing the culture in a gym. And possibly the culture of those representing the gym outside the dojo. It is absolutely the instructors job to set the culture in a gym.

When I was running a jujitsu and Judo school, I use to have a student who would get very angry when I would tap him out. He would throw a fit, and stomp around the mat, drawing attention to himself. I let him know very clearly that his behavior was unexceptable. If he wanted to act like that, he needed to go back to an MMA gym.

 

[lklawson]

Since we all seem to be somewhat agreed on the thought that the teachings and format of various schools of MA don't seem to change the basic nature of the student, does the instructor bear the responsibility to "weed out" the bad apples and either refund their money or simply tell them that they will no longer be taught there? Kinda like the restaurants that "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?

If it fits into his personal code, then yes. It kinda depends on him.

How about students refusing to continue attendance if the instructor is "gonna allow just anyone to attend"?

That's always an option. If you don't feel "comfortable" in the school for pretty much any reason, including "I just don't like the style," then leave.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When I was running a jujitsu and Judo school, I use to have a student who would get very angry when I would tap him out. He would throw a fit, and stomp around the mat, drawing attention to himself. I let him know very clearly that his behavior was unexceptable. If he wanted to act like that, he needed to go back to an MMA gym.

Honestly, that sort of behavior wouldn't be acceptable in most MMA gyms either.

 

[Yokozuna514]

The martial arts were never intended

I love the fact you are addressing the culture in a gym. And possibly the culture of those representing the gym outside the dojo. It is absolutely the instructors job to set the culture in a gym.

When I was running a jujitsu and Judo school, I use to have a student who would get very angry when I would tap him out. He would throw a fit, and stomp around the mat, drawing attention to himself. I let him know very clearly that his behavior was unexceptable. If he wanted to act like that, he needed to go back to an MMA gym.

Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, period. If it is tolerated in certain places, that is on the school and the director to sort out. I don't think it is fair to portray any MA system as being more tolerant to bad behaviour. People, regardless of what they do will always come in a spectrum. That means A-holes run schools too. Doesn't mean all schools in that style attract A-holes. There may be a predominantly higher ratio in that particular dojo/dojang/gym but assuming that everyone that does that style is an A-hole and this style attracts A-holes, well, not everything is that black and white.

 

[Gyakuto]

Since we all seem to be somewhat agreed on the thought that the teachings and format of various schools of MA don't seem to change the basic nature of the student, does the instructor bear the responsibility to "weed out" the bad apples and either refund their money or simply tell them that they will no longer be taught there? Kinda like the restaurants that "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? How about students refusing to continue attendance if the instructor is "gonna allow just anyone to attend"?

There seems to be a misapprehension that a martial arts instructor is some sort of moral guardian/father figure. They are not, nor can we reasonably expect them to be any more than, say, my pottery instructor! They teach you how to clobber another person with your hands, feet, sword or whatever. Why does that elevate them to some exalted moral position?

I think Mr Miyagi/Master Po/Master Kan have a lot to answer for!

 

[Jared Traveler]

Bad behaviour is bad behaviour, period. If it is tolerated in certain places, that is on the school and the director to sort out. I don't think it is fair to portray any MA system as being more tolerant to bad behaviour. People, regardless of what they do will always come in a spectrum. That means A-holes run schools too. Doesn't mean all schools in that style attract A-holes. There may be a predominantly higher ratio in that particular dojo/dojang/gym but assuming that everyone that does that style is an A-hole and this style attracts A-holes, well, not everything is that black and white.

He would have fit in with the gym he came from. It wasn't without context. He stayed by the time way, and change his behavior.

 

[Jared Traveler]

There seems to be a misapprehension that a martial arts instructor is some sort of moral guardian/father figure. They are not, nor can we reasonably expect them to be any more than, say, my pottery instructor! They teach you how to clobber another person with your hands, feet, sword or whatever. Why does that elevate them to some exalted moral position?

I think Mr Miyagi/Master Po/Master Kan have a lot to answer for!

I understand your overall point, but do believe they have much more of a moral obligation to at least model moral behavior over a pottery instructor.

 

[skribs]

As an instructor, if you want to produce black belt students who show humility, courtesy, and integrity, then reciting tenets at the end of class will do exactly zero to produce that end.

For once, I'm going to disagree with you. Saying it keeps it in your mind, so at least you're going to progress towards it. I don't think it's necessary to build humble, courteous, uh...integral? Integrous? Anyway, you get my point. I don't think it's necessary to recite these traits to build them. However, I think it does more than 0. It keeps it in the mind of the student that these things are important. And it keeps it in the mind of the instructor to continue to work on it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In the dojang where I train, there are tenets that we recite after every class: Humility, Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, Indomitable Spirit. While perseverance, self-control and indomitable spirit are the characteristics we all use in order to have success in our training, my question revolves around the first three: Humility, Courtesy and Integrity. The thought is that true "black belt mentality" is something that is present both in the dojang and in public. Yet, it seems that some black belts end up being real "horse's patooties" in the pride quotient. They're "somebody" and ought to be respected as such. Any of you experience that in your own dojo/dojang/gym?

Not really, but I know what you mean. Our dojo is too small, we all know each other very well after having trained together for years, and we don't mind bringing someone down a notch if the situation calls for it. The situation almost never calls for it. Our karateka are to a person pretty darned great people. Except me, but what can you do.

 

[Buka]

Hypocrisy: Always an issue when dealing with fallen man.
The sooner one understand sin, the less bewildered they will be…

I understand sin, I practice it all the time.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I understand sin, I practice it all the time.

My body has this issue where it cannot produce sin on its own so I need to take supplements from time to time.