The Martial Effectiveness of Drills in Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) - From Martial Journal
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I have always been impressed with FMA, and I think the FMA drills are what makes it rather effective. The critique, yes there are alway critiques, some good some bad. But building muscle memory is always a good thing. The rhythmic drills I do not see in a lot of martial arts, especially with weapons. You drill applications but not in a rhythmic way. Some do, Wing Chun has Chi Sau, Taiji has push hands and 2 person forms and xingyiquan has 2 person drills and push hands, although a bit more aggressive that Taijiquan. Is that reality? Well no, but they can give you reflexes to respond, they can give you what to expect when hit. They have a place in training and what little I know about FMA they are very good at this.
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
All good points.
I think the challenge is not getting wrapped up in the accumulation of drills at the expense of the actual skills the drills were intended to convey. I started properly in FMA in 1989. In the time since, I've been exposed to hundreds of drills. And in the earlier years, I was always scrambling for a notebook or whatever to record them all. But, given the sheer number of FMA styles now, you'll drive yourself absolutely mad trying to record them all. It was bad enough trying to do that pre-internet, when we were picking these things up from seminars or instructional videotapes. (Panther Productions, I'm looking at you.) Now, when there are literally thousands of them at your fingertips on YouTube...
You can definitely cluster your efforts around a smaller set of drills. The obvious ones are the sumbrada box pattern, hubud lubud, and sinawali, just as an example. When I was actively teaching, I definitely used these. If I were to go back to teaching, I think I'd want to do more freestyle drilling, in addition to these set exercises. But that was always built into our progression anyway. So there's nothing new in that idea.
As one of my grad school professors used to say, "the map is not the territory." The drill is not the skill. But having that map does help a bit.
I think the challenge is not getting wrapped up in the accumulation of drills at the expense of the actual skills the drills were intended to convey. I started properly in FMA in 1989. In the time since, I've been exposed to hundreds of drills. And in the earlier years, I was always scrambling for a notebook or whatever to record them all. But, given the sheer number of FMA styles now, you'll drive yourself absolutely mad trying to record them all. It was bad enough trying to do that pre-internet, when we were picking these things up from seminars or instructional videotapes. (Panther Productions, I'm looking at you.) Now, when there are literally thousands of them at your fingertips on YouTube...
You can definitely cluster your efforts around a smaller set of drills. The obvious ones are the sumbrada box pattern, hubud lubud, and sinawali, just as an example. When I was actively teaching, I definitely used these. If I were to go back to teaching, I think I'd want to do more freestyle drilling, in addition to these set exercises. But that was always built into our progression anyway. So there's nothing new in that idea.
As one of my grad school professors used to say, "the map is not the territory." The drill is not the skill. But having that map does help a bit.
EskrimaFan
Yellow Belt
The bold is partially true, because it looks impressive but with the latter I don't agree. It's not the drills what makes FMA effective, but the practitioner and how can they translate the drill to an applicable situation.
There are styles that are very drill heavy styles, like PTK, Doce Pares, and maybe Modern Arnis as well.
The problem for me with drills is that it all works fine with your regular training partners, but not on folks outside their style. A little bit indeed what you see with a lot of Wing Chun practitioners.
Some practitioners focus so much on drills, that they actually think that the drills are the application.
While a lower colored belt in Modern Arnis, I was working as the manager cook of a pizzeria / ice cream shop.
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I went out to the seating and asked some teenagers (17-20). Being 20 myself (at that time) not being derogatory about age here.
He came at me, and I did trapping hands and struck back. This went for three exchanges when he stopped and dropped his hands as he had only trained it for a tree pass encounter not continuously.
Upon seeing his face open in surprise when he realized I was still coming, I changed the fist strike to open hand in the center of the chest.
It ended there.
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Yes , the individual is very important, and it is also important how one uses the drills. Do they mix them up? Do they switch from one drill to another live?
The training methodology is also important as the student not exposed to the other live or real integrations can never practice them.
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Thank you
OP
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
The bolded part goes without saying, as with any style
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
That's the rub then. That, I think, is what marks good teaching. How do you make that transition from the drill to a more freeform application?
That progression was woven throughout our Doce Pares curriculum. I can think of ways I might have chosen to implement that idea differently perhaps. But the idea itself was clear throughout.
If I were to teach again, I've got some thoughts on how I'd work that progression.
I think part of the allure of drills, though, is the projection of competence. If you're good at sumbrada, abecedario, or sinawali, you tend to look like an absolute warrior. But if you've ever sparred stick (for example), you know just how chaotic the actual application is. Trouble is that it can be a real high to perform a drill well in front of observers. So it's a reward system of a sort.
In contrast, a more freestyle training method can often make you look like an uncoordinated, panicky idiot. Which is a necessary step toward real skill, but not something people often want to go through.
That progression was woven throughout our Doce Pares curriculum. I can think of ways I might have chosen to implement that idea differently perhaps. But the idea itself was clear throughout.
If I were to teach again, I've got some thoughts on how I'd work that progression.
I think part of the allure of drills, though, is the projection of competence. If you're good at sumbrada, abecedario, or sinawali, you tend to look like an absolute warrior. But if you've ever sparred stick (for example), you know just how chaotic the actual application is. Trouble is that it can be a real high to perform a drill well in front of observers. So it's a reward system of a sort.
In contrast, a more freestyle training method can often make you look like an uncoordinated, panicky idiot. Which is a necessary step toward real skill, but not something people often want to go through.
Interestingly enough, in our Eskrido style (Eskrido De Alcuizar), we donāt do sinawalli, hubud, sumbrada, but employ the principals of them. We do have all the common striking angels. We do use two forms of tapi tapi. One form is to practice energy control, locks, disarms and counters. The other is faster and strike oriented. We do a lot of random angle defense to offense attacks, speed building with both stick, bolo and small knife. GM came out of the DP camp, and of course he knew the Caneteās & Bacon personally. He created a system with modern self defense in mind.
Come visit us!
Eskrido De Alcuizar
GM Gerardo Alquizar (deceased 2007)
Head instructor Ron Manrique
Buena Park CA
Come visit us!
Eskrido De Alcuizar
GM Gerardo Alquizar (deceased 2007)
Head instructor Ron Manrique
Buena Park CA
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
The drill is not the art! Karate has been a victim of people seeing a drill and commenting how useless it would be in a real fight. A drill is a one-dimensional practice of a specific fighting element, a piece useless in itself, but put together with other drills and elements builds overall ability.
I agree. It's easy to fall into a rhythm and coast on autopilot, even at high speed. It does develop some muscle memory but lays some booby traps as you've described. Timing must be interrupted to prevent this. Each rep must be seen as a distinct series. Variable timing can be inserted. Flow, stop...Flow, stop................Flow, stop........Flow, stop. This way, each attack is a new experience. Interchanging 3 or 4 different series often during the practice will aid in this. This takes some flow out of the flow drill but keeps the practitioner on his toes. All drills have their limitations.
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EskrimaFan
Yellow Belt
You could look at it as the differences in Balintawak, there is the grouping system, which is very drill heavy, were people study premeditated actions and responses with a lot of structure, and there is the random method which focuses more on natural responses which feels more freestyle.
For my own experience, in De Campo 1-2-3 Original there aren't drills like sumbrada or siniwali. The system has no specific drills like the other systems. The techniques and principles are divided in 3 levels, Elementary, Highschool and College. There are no disarms only striking, and people always think it's purely a largo system which is a misconception. People that teach only largo in De Campo don't understand the art that well.
In Baraw Sugbo there is a bit more drilling there to develop responses and attributes. The art has 4 progressions. I'm not teaching this system so I wont go to deep into this one.
What ever way you are training the most important is, does the training method suits you, and that's why the diversity is a beautiful thing
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
Exactly that. For most of us, martial arts will (hopefully) be a conceptual exercise. No desire whatsoever to be hit with an actual katana. Or even someone's elbow, frankly. So we're talking about abstractions, the goal being to engage in enough compromises that you're able to triangulate a truth rather than landing directly on it. The key is to vary the kinds of drills you're doing so they address the shortcomings of one another.
Again, if I began teaching again, I'd want to invest in some gear. Padded sticks, fencing helmets, etc. The stuff that allows you to bridge that gap safely between heavily structured drill (the sort you can do with rattan relatively safely) and freeform. One of the things I admired about my (brief) time in Western fencing was the "live" drilling from Day 1. Yes it's a foil. Yes you've got padding and a helmet. But you're getting used to that broken timing, constantly changing distance, and uncooperative opponent right from the jump.
You could look at it as the differences in Balintawak, there is the grouping system, which is very drill heavy, were people study premeditated actions and responses with a lot of structure, and there is the random method which focuses more on natural responses which feels more freestyle.
For my own experience, in De Campo 1-2-3 Original there aren't drills like sumbrada or siniwali. The system has no specific drills like the other systems. The techniques and principles are divided in 3 levels, Elementary, Highschool and College. There are no disarms only striking, and people always think it's purely a largo system which is a misconception. People that teach only largo in De Campo don't understand the art that well.
In Baraw Sugbo there is a bit more drilling there to develop responses and attributes. The art has 4 progressions. I'm not teaching this system so I wont go to deep into this one.
What ever way you are training the most important is, does the training method suits you, and that's why the diversity is a beautiful thing
Balintawak:
As an instructor in the Random "Original" Methodology and having friends who train and teach the grouping methodology there are pros and cons to each.
The pros to the grouping is that it can reach a lot more people quicker and easier.
The cons they have to stick around long enough to make the connections between the drills and make it random.
The Original:
Cons limited exposure and harder to reach larger numbers in any real fashion
Pros, once past Abecedario and Seguidas stages they are in Corraidas (The Mixing Bowl) and can begin to get more random.
Yet there still is a methodology of what to teach and when.
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
I was introduced to sumbrada and hubud later, when I spent time in Inosanto Blend kali. We didn't do sumbrada with my Doce Pares school. Though we did have a couple of similar but smaller contra y contra drills in our curriculum. One was called pingki-pingki and the other tapi. The basic attributes being conveyed were the same as sumbrada. And I've practiced all of them over the years.
What we called tapi-tapi in my school was a form of abecedario (another form of drill probably worth more conversation). I spent a lot of time years later with a Modern Arnis group, for whom tapi-tapi was a completely different thing, more akin again to sumbrada.
We had a handful of sinawali drills though. Not an inordinate number, I don't think. I could go through our old curriculum, but I think it probably numbers about four, with a couple of slight variations bringing it to five or six. A couple of four counts. A couple of six counts. And a couple of slight variations on the theme.
Strung out on sinawaliā¦
First let me say that I believe that the sinawali drills are a good tradition and even better when they are explained well.
There was a popular school close to me that I checked out a couple times. They incorporated a ton of sinawali drills into their curriculum and used them to grade students similar to kata. 4 counts, 6 counts, la Costa 6,8,10,12, etc. I walked away thinking that the school just strung out their students with this stuff for financial purposes.
Again, Iām certainly not opposed to these drills. I believe physically and mentally they have many benefits. Our school just goes about it in a different way, using the principles and incorporating them in what we believe is a more realistic method for modern street self defense and still staying within the mentality and framework of the FMA.
There are so many great styles of FMA. Also, no governing body to standardize the art, it will always be this way and thankfully so. It is the original JKD.
First let me say that I believe that the sinawali drills are a good tradition and even better when they are explained well.
There was a popular school close to me that I checked out a couple times. They incorporated a ton of sinawali drills into their curriculum and used them to grade students similar to kata. 4 counts, 6 counts, la Costa 6,8,10,12, etc. I walked away thinking that the school just strung out their students with this stuff for financial purposes.
Again, Iām certainly not opposed to these drills. I believe physically and mentally they have many benefits. Our school just goes about it in a different way, using the principles and incorporating them in what we believe is a more realistic method for modern street self defense and still staying within the mentality and framework of the FMA.
There are so many great styles of FMA. Also, no governing body to standardize the art, it will always be this way and thankfully so. It is the original JKD.
Nice! The are so many super approaches to tapi tapi. I would say our first version is more like WC chi sao with a weapon, inserting whatever techniques weāve learned when we feel itās right. You get literally 1 or 2 seconds to make it work. When there is a stalemate for more then 2 seconds itās time to re-set. Itās amazing blindfolded!
ap Oweyn
Black Belt
That sounds a little like a drill we did in DP called "palakaw." Though we used the same term to describe a bit of footwork as well. Terminology in FMA is a wild ride.
In the drill I'm thinking of, though, it referred to a chi sao-like exercise where your empty hand was engaged with the opponent's stick hand, trying to read, check, and redirect their weapon. At the same time, they were monitoring yours the same way while you tried to rain down backhand and forehand witiks.
