dishonesty in the FMA

[thekuntawman]

haumana,
what should we do, the ones who know should share the information they know, and bust the myth when they can. true, that lots of what we have is oral tradition, but there is a lot of these myths that came from a recent oral tradition that someone just made up recently, like there is an anient art of biting called kinomutai. this is the dishonesty i am talking about. i know he got that info from someone, but who? serrada people dont have that. largusa people dont either. and doce pares. and lameco. i believe dan inosanto made that up. and even if he heard it from another teacher, he knows now that there is no art of biting, so why continue to tell people there is one instead of saying "i made an art of biting and i call it kinomutai."

the bottom line of an art is, does it work. and i recognize inosanto style as a real filipino art. i just dont respect the passing of false information, seminar certifications, and his having no interest to see the philippines. but that is only my problem. some guy here can make his own "kali" style and never took philippine martial arts before, give it a filipino name and its a filipino style. just dont go around telling people it was pass down to you from generations of filipino masters.

blackgrass
i have plenty of respect for dan inosanto as a filipino martial arts leader. at the same time, am i still allowed to disagree with him? he was my first martial arts hero, so i cannot dislike him. i still question his approach in promoting the filipino arts.

 

[haumana2000]

Well said Kuntawman, a particularly valid point which I have never agreed with is the Seminar certification. As for the Kino-mutai, I think I would be more open to this if it was ascribed just as a filipino name for a technique, but not a complete art.

 

[Black Grass]

Certification through seminar is completely valid method of gaining instructorship. In particular I believe Inosanto has a good program for putting out competent teachers.

If it were not for these type of programs many would not have the opportunity to train and learn the FMA. The only way to get better is to train with others and by creating a person who can lead others you accomplish this.

In the case of the Inosanto Academy. It is my understanding there are 5 levels of apprentice instructor and 10 levels of associate. You are reviewed once a year to see if you progress to the next level. So assuming you pass each time. Thats 15 years to become an instructor. This does not count the amount of time spent as a student. It is not until you achieve full instructors can yo make instructors of your own.

Now the problem that may arise is people with egos start thinking apprentice INSTRUCTOR as opposed to APPRENTICE instructor.

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[haumana2000]

I understand what you are saying black grass, However, I do feel that the problem lies with the way many approach the seminar training as a sole method of learning. I am not speaking regarding The Inosanto blend here. I am refferring to the industry as a whole. I have seen some who attend a couple of seminars all of a sudden promoted to some high rank. And then you have the issue of do they have a method of continuously reinforcing the material, what about someone to help them through the bad habits most beginners tend to develop. How you train it is how you use it. On to the next thing, FMA is a social art, meaning you have to have an adequate partner to feed the strokes, and allow you to see angles, and develop the sensitivity. So if you attend a seminar, then dont really have a method of reinforcing the training until next year, have you REALLY advanced? And at the next seminar are you learning new material? If so you havent really gotten good at the previous, and you are moving on. This is what I am talking about. the guys who go soley for the certificate to add to their dojo wall. And the opportunity to put one more logo in the window. I think seminars a re a great, and viable means of learning new material for someone who already has an understanding of the principals
and foundation of an art. thats my opinion.

 

[bart]

Seminars are definitely the only way that some people can gain knowledge in FMA, or any MA especially when the GM or teacher lives in another country or across some great distance. But seminar training does have to be backed up by consistent training aside from the seminar for the practitioner to be any good.

There are many talented seminar trained instructors who actually spend more time working on the particular concepts and principles of the art than students who regularly train under the GM or teacher. Again, it depends on the person and not so much on how they were trained.

Traditionally FMA were a "club" style. That is, there was no GM and the training was pretty much boxing style: not too much instruction, but lots of practice and practical application. It lends itself well to seminar style dissemination of information.

So if you attend a seminar, then dont really have a method of reinforcing the training until next year, have you REALLY advanced?

This definitely is the problem with many "seminarians". In order to be proficient they must have a study group or a group of people to teach and practice what they've learned. Also, they must have access to the teacher for questions. Otherwise it would be more likely that they would not progress.

I agree that there are many people out there who learn at seminars but don't know the art. But some of the best people that I've come across, learned at seminars and became very very proficient. It really depends on the person.

 

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by Black Grass
Certification through seminar is completely valid method of gaining instructorship. In particular I believe Inosanto has a good program for putting out competent teachers.

If it were not for these type of programs many would not have the opportunity to train and learn the FMA. The only way to get better is to train with others and by creating a person who can lead others you accomplish this.

In the case of the Inosanto Academy. It is my understanding there are 5 levels of apprentice instructor and 10 levels of associate. You are reviewed once a year to see if you progress to the next level. So assuming you pass each time. Thats 15 years to become an instructor. This does not count the amount of time spent as a student. It is not until you achieve full instructors can yo make instructors of your own.

Now the problem that may arise is people with egos start thinking apprentice INSTRUCTOR as opposed to APPRENTICE instructor.

Vince
aka Black Grass

5 levels of apprentice instructor and 10 levels of associate? how many levels for STUDENT? so it looks to me like the goal is not study of the art, but to get more people out there teaching? that does not sound impressive to me. if there is more levels of permission to teach, than learning, i see that the FMA has become like mcdojo tae kwon do, just to get more black belters and higher degrees.

no there should only be two kinds of teachers. regular, qualified teachers, who already have wisdom, not wet behind the ears. and master instructors. none of them should have testings and certificates like a student. they should be recognition and permission to teach my system. but shoot if you let somebody with only 3 or 4 years of training teach, the standards of expertise is become very low, and bad for the philippine martial arts.

you should be so experienced in fighting when you become a teacher because your students are relying on your experience to save his own life one day. if you are still in the main part of your learning, not merely learning techniques, but learning the opponent, what can you show a student that a book or video cant show him. FMA has become technique based, and fighting is not that easy. a technique based curriculum is shows that the teacher does not understand fighting that well.

 

[Black Grass]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
5 levels of apprentice instructor and 10 levels of associate? how many levels for STUDENT? so it looks to me like the goal is not study of the art, but to get more people out there teaching? that does not sound impressive to me. if there is more levels of permission to teach, than learning, i see that the FMA has become like mcdojo tae kwon do, just to get more black belters and higher degrees.

What does it matter if there are more levels of instructor that student. It doesn't mean a person can't be a student for 10 years. The way one structures there rank as nothing to do with becoming mcdojo.

no there should only be two kinds of teachers. regular, qualified teachers, who already have wisdom, not wet behind the ears. and master instructors. none of them should have testings and certificates like a student. they should be recognition and permission to teach my system. ...

This is one approach which I don't disagree with but it it simplely that one approach. If one chooses to test there instructors or rank them I don't still whats the issue it is simple a choice how you want to run your school/organization.

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[Black Grass]

What I ment to say:

This is one approach which I don't disagree with but it it simplely that one approach. If one chooses to test there instructors or rank them I still don't see what the issue is. It is just a choice how you want to run your school/organization.

Vince