Mr. Zhu Huaiyuan - Yang Style Tai Chi (Old Sixth Form)

[Same Trick]

Understanding it's not your practice.....
It would better if you quoted the text directly.


Quote the text....



the timing of what ?

" Wei Shuren: Especially in the early stages when one is not able to perceive the direction of spirit, intention and qi, it is indeed not easy to grasp the context of its flow."

The timing I had asked about....

" Wei Shuren: Practitioners of the boxing must follow the instructions of the boxing essentials, and carefully ponder the essentials during repeated practice so as to gradually comprehend the leading role of spirit, intention and Qi, and integrate them increasingly deeply into the boxing movements."

The "what" the timing is based on.


Actually it was not,,"spot on", there was no correct or "spot on answer"
The point was allow for an understanding of your view point...




translation by google...
The text ..."The Essence of Yang Style Tai Chi: Written by Wei Shuren"


It seems we might be discussing different things.
This thread is focused on what past masters have written about Taiji and its method.
Whether one sees it as unique or not depends on their experience and the level of practitioners they have encountered.

A never-ending journey of refinement rather than a skill with a fixed endpoint.

Timing as in timely dealing with a situation to one’s advantage, as in martial arts - sparring/fighting as example. Why do you make a question of this ? Because that’s what you did to my initial post in the thread, a post that was not intended to anyone specific since I didn’t quote and comment anyone specific.
But since you quoted and commented with question marks to that my post you made it an open game so I answered and made comment and question on your claims and material, I even quoted parts of your material for you, and now you want I further quote your material for you ?? Your website is already linked in the thread by both you and me, that’s enough.

Yes perhaps we are talking different things, but I did quote and made comments on your text on the past master Wang Yongquan, so am I off topic or what do you mean ?

 

[Same Trick]

Does it need to be impressive ?
Or just a demo of another's work?




if you think so....

That’s the thing, it doesn’t have to be impressive, but these kind of specific demonstrations of basic stuff always try to put an exaggerated end twist of what they hope will be perceived impressive. Also that this sort of thing is filmed and put online may suggest it’s done with intent to impress.


Yes exaggerated responses, responses are not in tune with the intent/force given to the teacher/“master”, And then when some put on a more skillfully committed force/intent these demos doesn’t work out so easily for the master who the often quickly dismiss the “attacker” for another easier one.

 

[windwalker099]

That’s the thing, it doesn’t have to be impressive, but these kind of specific demonstrations of basic stuff always try to put an exaggerated end twist of what they hope will be perceived impressive. Also that this sort of thing is filmed and put online may suggest it’s done with intent to impress.

IME its a pretty common way of teaching, something that was intended for those there at the time, allowed to be videoed for those not there and others who might be interested in the teachers work. Many teachers working with the same ideas, teach in the same way...using the same type of demonstrations.

The teacher's history:

"Zhu Chunxuan (朱春煊) (1939–2022) was a respected master of Yang-style Taijiquan, known for his dedication to preserving and teaching the traditional "Old Yang-style" Taiji. As the son of Zhu Huaiyuan (朱怀元), a prominent disciple of Wang Yongquan (汪永泉), Zhu Chunxuan continued his father's legacy by emphasizing the internal principles and applications of Taijiquan.

Throughout his life, Zhu Chunxuan was committed to sharing his deep understanding of Taiji. He conducted numerous workshops and demonstrations, focusing on the art's internal energy cultivation and practical applications. His teachings have been documented in various videos, capturing his expertise and approach to Taijiquan."

Yes exaggerated responses, responses are not in tune with the intent/force given to the teacher/“master”, And then when some put on a more skillfully committed force/intent these demos doesn’t work out so easily for the master who the often quickly dismiss the “attacker” for another easier one.

For me, the responses aligned with things I’ve felt from my own teacher and observed in other teachers demonstrating their work. What makes it particularly interesting is the consistency, as it all follows the same principles.

The primary characteristic of the Yang-style Wang lineage of Taijiquan lies in “Dian, Duan, Pai” (Point, Break, and Strike). As it is often said, “True mastery lies in understanding Dian-Duan.” The essence of Dian-Duan Jin (Point-Break Energy) is rooted in Shang Shou (a state of mastery in connection and application).

The demo showed what this means "point-break-energy "
Different students provide different types of energy—some may unconsciously resist accounting for the different responses..
In my own work, it's quite interesting as some "unconsciouly" resist, what "consciously" they say, they do not feel.

 

[Same Trick]

, it's quite interesting as some "unconsciouly" resist, what "consciously" they say, they do not feel.

This I have to take some time to get my head around

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's the usage to develop this kind of "push" ability? Can you use this skill

- in the boxing ring,
- on the wrestling mat, or
- in the MMA cage?

There are so many valuable MA skills that's worthwhile your lifetime to develop. I just don't see "push" to be one of those skills.

IMO, valuable MA skills can be a punch/kick/throw that can knock/take all your opponent down.

 

[isshinryuronin]

What's the usage to develop this kind of "push" ability?

IMO, a push as a pure defensive technique is of little use. It just postpones the problem.

The "push" I do is more like a very shortrange double palm heel strike, using chinkuchi power. This stuns the opponent and gives me enough room to fire a longer-range lead hand palm strike followed by a quick slide-in reverse punch and fierce combo to finish him.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMO, a push as a pure defensive technique is of little use. It just postpones the problem.

The "push" I do is more like a very shortrange double palm heel strike, using chinkuchi power. This stuns the opponent and gives me enough room to fire a longer-range lead hand palm strike followed by a quick slide-in reverse punch and fierce combo to finish him.

Push + leg skill = throw

The "leg skill" is the missing part.

 

[windwalker099]

The skills shown in the videos can be applied across various martial arts contexts, with their value depending on individual goals and priorities. These skills go beyond mere physical pushing—they involve using one’s own center (Zhong) of balance, intention, and Qi to interact with the opponent’s center. When executed effectively, the opponent experiences a loss of balance and structure, their reactions are attempts to regain stability, creating opportunities for control or technique application.

The true skill lies in how this is achieved. Those in the video, understanding this, seek out the teacher to experience it firsthand.

Zhu Chunxuan's (朱春煊) father ,
Zhu Huaiyuan (朱怀元), one of Wang Yongquan (汪永泉) disciples

 

[isshinryuronin]

Push + leg skill = throw

The "leg skill" is the missing part.

I notice he first takes out the guy's right leg with his right, then uses the same leg to take out the guy's left leg.
Very nice getting maximum effect from his position.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I notice he first takes out the guy's right leg with his right, then uses the same leg to take out the guy's left leg.
Very nice getting maximum effect from his position.

Yes I teach this exact thing. 1-2-3 tap tap sweep.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I notice he first takes out the guy's right leg with his right, then uses the same leg to take out the guy's left leg.
Very nice getting maximum effect from his position.

It’s first make contact to the right, then to the left, then sweep to the right. 3 beats.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I notice he first takes out the guy's right leg with his right, then uses the same leg to take out the guy's left leg.
Very nice getting maximum effect from his position.

You have sharp eyes. Most people don't see the knee strike the inside of the leading upper leg in that video. This was exactly the move that he used when he challenged a Judo master who visited China. The knee strike to the leg could be an illegal move in Judo. But the challenged place was in China that SC rule was applied instead.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It’s first make contact to the right, then to the left, then sweep to the right. 3 beats.

This is the beauty of putting your leading leg between your opponent's legs. You can use it to attack your opponent's both legs until he is down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The skills shown in the videos can be applied across various martial arts contexts, ...

We have not seen any video that this "push" skill is applied to. My question is "Why do you allow your opponent to have free legs?"

If your opponent doesn't have free

- arms, he can't punch you.
- legs, he can't escape out of your attack.

 

[Same Trick]

What's the usage to develop this kind of "push" ability? Can you use this skill

- in the boxing ring,
- on the wrestling mat, or
- in the MMA cage?

There are so many valuable MA skills that's worthwhile your lifetime to develop. I just don't see "push" to be one of those skills.

IMO, valuable MA skills can be a punch/kick/throw that can knock/take all your opponent down.

The reasoning goes as that the higher level skill is a refinement of basic skill. I think all in the tread have this experience to a higher or lesser extent.

The past master Wang Yongquan must have had this too since if I recall correct I have read he was into wrestling before he took up to study taijiquan, so could understand the basic levels of TJQ quite easily

But, for the other masters mentioned in the thread such as Wei Shuren, they seemingly did not go that road, they had no previous martial arts experience and started late with TJQ and never trained in basic methods of hand to hand combat, that’s why they only can demonstrate their skill with student or others that carefully follow their instructions on the set of the demonstration.
If they asked the other part to try to nail them with a committed punch I’m sure they would have some trouble defending.

 

[windwalker099]

We have not seen any video that this "push" skill is applied to. My question is "Why do you allow your opponent to have free legs?"

If your opponent doesn't have free

- arms, he can't punch you.
- legs, he can't escape out of your attack.

In all the GIFs posted, the demo shows one person remaining relatively still, allowing the technique to be applied.
Are you suggesting that this is a realistic portrayal of how people would naturally react?

On the other hand, the videos presented are simply demonstrations of a specific skill set in isolation—nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In all the GIFs posted, the demo shows one person remaining relatively still, allowing the technique to be applied.
Are you suggesting that this is a realistic portrayal of how people would naturally react?

You attack your opponent when he is on guard. Both entering strategy and finish strategy are shown in those GIFs.

Demo is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real.

The 1/2

- fake part is your opponent will give you that opportunity.
- real part is you have to finish it.

 

[windwalker099]

The past master Wang Yongquan must have had this too since if I recall correct I have read he was into wrestling before he took up to study taijiquan, so could understand the basic levels of TJQ quite easily

some history

"Wang Yongquan, whose nickname was Xiao Lao Hu “Little Tiger,” was very skilled at Chinese Wrestling and could fall without getting seriously injured; so the Yang Family loved to practice their techniques on him."

He was good at getting thrown with out getting hurt...
I'd say it did not help him learning the basic skill sets of taiji, did enable him to feel them applied.
The way they taught back then a little different then what is commonly taught publicly in todays time.

But, for the other masters mentioned in the thread such as Wei Shuren, they seemingly did not go that road, they had no previous martial arts experience and started late with TJQ and never trained in basic methods of hand to hand combat, that’s why they only can demonstrate their skill with student or others that carefully follow their instructions on the set of the demonstration.

Wei Shuren, was considered a Chen style master at one time.

Master Wei was a contented master of Chen style Tai Chi Chuan. A friend told him of an old master with superlative skill that he must meet. Master Wei famously said that there was nothing more for him to learn in Tai Chi Chuan since he had attained a high level of skill.

If they asked the other part to try to nail them with a committed punch I’m sure they would have some trouble defending.

IME, teachers with unique skill sets often attract students who were already skilled in their own styles but chose to study under the teacher after losing a match to them or one of their senior students**. . They stay and learn from the teacher.

** In Korea lost a match to a northern mantis teacher's student...
Ended up studying under the teacher for awhile, in retrospect a mistake.

When I met my last Taiji teacher, he was 80 years old and said, 'Try anything you like.'
In doing so, I found what I was looking for and chose to stay with him, dropping everything else to understand his method.
From time to time, local visitors would stop by, questioning what they saw, wanting to feel the work.
The older students would answer their questions.

One might say this was historically the traditional way, in some places, it still is.
Not everything is recorded on video or meant for outsiders. Should it be?

 

[windwalker099]

You attack your opponent when he is on guard. Both entering strategy and finish strategy are shown in those GIFs.

Demo is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real.

The 1/2

- fake part is your opponent will give you that opportunity.
- real part is you have to finish it.

It's still a demo, illustrating certain principles or unique methods attributed to a specific style or teacher.
Questioning the usefulness of a demo depends on one’s experience with what is being presented. To truly understand it, one would need to meet someone known for demonstrating the skill firsthand.

IME to meet such teachers one would need an introduction.
For those with out an introduction who want to feel "it"
most teachers have Men Ren (门人) — gatekeepers
to answer questions from visitors.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IME to meet such teachers one would need an introduction.
For those with out an introduction who want to feel "it"
most teachers have Men Ren (门人) — gatekeepers
to answer questions from visitors.

I'm not questioning the teacher's ability. I'm questioning the end usage of "push". You can put on any "push" video. my question is still the same.

1. How to use push in striking art.
2. How to use push in throwing art.

I don't know the answer for 1 since a punch on the face doesn't need any "push" at all. But for 2, I think the "leg skill" should be added in. In order to take your opponent down, you need to train how to use your "push" and "leg skill" at the same time.