The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is it possible to do it with boxing gloves?

You can use your forearms to block/deflect without grab/pull. I don't think "switch hands" is in boxing's DNA.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Is this the one where the arms cross? Right arm blocks as the left arm moves forward to begin its block. I think I've seen this in kata . I'm assuming the the left block is a failsafe in the event that you get the timing wrong. I'm trying to picture it before I leave work.

Yes. This "layered" overlapping blocking is a main feature in my style, and probably found in other Okinawan styles as well. But just as important (and the application I described in my earlier post) is in the manipulation of the lead (or attacking) arm where the first block moves the arm maybe 40 degrees off center and the second block takes over and moves it another 40 degrees to the side, partially turning the opponent around and thus exposing his back. (Perhaps why this is not seen in boxing is that attacking from the rear is not allowed? I'm not sure of the rules.)

Of course, this can accomplish both applications simultaneously. A lot of effective fighting techniques in TMA, many of which can be found in kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Since you are "interested in knowing what systems do it" and want evidence, why not research Shotokan karate? You can post other Shotokan kata and drills, that don't chamber empty hikite to the waist while punching, to prove the point you are arguing..

So, do you now assert that Shotokan karate only teaches - in all drills - punches that chamber with low hikite?

 

[marvin8]

So, do you now assert that Shotokan karate only teaches - in all drills - punches that chamber with low hikite?

Again,

Since you are "interested in knowing what systems do it" and want evidence, why not research Shotokan karate? You can post other Shotokan kata and drills, that don't chamber empty hikite to the waist while punching, to prove the point you are arguing..

I did not "assert." I posted videos of chambering empty hikite in kata and drills. The kata and drills that I have seen in Shotokan karate chamber an empty hikite when they punch, except for people that changed it like the Machida Karate Academy.

 

[Star Dragon]

Hi,

It's important to bear in mind that a proper karate technique involves movement which doesn't meet the eye. Ideally, it's executed with one's whole body, even though the visible part may showcase just a fraction of what's actually going on.

Now the way a technique is being practised in kihon, including the use of hiki-te, idealises it in terms of body mechanics. This doesn't suggest that it could be used in the same form in practical application, where a number of factors are to be taken into consideration--although an approximation might sometimes offer itself naturally (e.g., employing hiki-te as a grab/pull).

Nonetheless, it's reasonable to practise techniques in their extended or 'full' form in order to get proper body mechanics down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

-although an approximation might sometimes offer itself naturally (e.g., employing hiki-te as a grab/pull).

If hikite is defined as pulling hand back. The three approximation doesn't exist. If it is defined has pulling clothes or pulling arms. Then the approximation will exist. What if someone grabs my gi and I pull my opponent into my punch by pulling my hand back then have I done hikite even though my hand didn't need to grab anything to pull my opponent?

If someone grabs your wrist, you will be able to pull them, as long as they maintain their grip.

 

[isshinryuronin]

it is defined has pulling clothes or pulling arms.

I consider this the definition of hikite as it involves a returning hand motion to control the opponent.

if someone grabs my gi and I pull my opponent into my punch by pulling my hand back then have I done hikite even though my hand didn't need to grab anything to pull my opponent?

Ifif someone frags your wrist you will be able to pull them as long as long as they maintain grip.

According to the definition above, it is hikite. IMO, even though the opponent is grabbing you, your returning hand motion controls the opponent, as whether he grabs you or you grab him, the effect is the same.

 

[marvin8]

I consider this the definition of hikite as it involves a returning hand motion to control the opponent.

According to the definition above, it is hikite. IMO, even though the opponent is grabbing you, your returning hand motion controls the opponent, as whether he grabs you or you grab him, the effect is the same.

Funakoshi's hikite definition:

“The meaning of hitike is to grab the enemy’s arm and twist and pull as much as possible in order to break the enemy’s posture.”
- Gichin Funakoshi

Choki's quote on not chambering an empty hikite at the waist (?):

“There is no dead hand in Karate.”
- Motobu Choki

 

[JowGaWolf]

Funakoshi's hikite definition:

“The meaning of hitike is to grab the enemy’s arm and twist and pull as much as possible in order to break the enemy’s posture.”
- Gichin Funakoshi

Choki's quote on not chambering an empty hikite at the waist (?):

“There is no dead hand in Karate.”
- Motobu Choki

Thats one person who learned a technique from someone else. He did not create the technique and it is more likely that it was his preferred application and not the only one. I'm saying this because it takes very little pulling to break structure from a striking perspective but from a grappling perspective you'll need to put more into the pull. From the stories about him and from the from the kata that he trained, he was probably more of a close range fighter/grappler. If that is the reality of his fighting preference then he would only speak of pulling hand in terms of close rage grappling. Definitely if he's doing alot of clinch work.

His claim that no one ever punched him in the face makes me think that he was a close range fighter which makes it very difficult to land hay makers and straight punches or punches at all if some one is pulling on your opposite arm everything you try to punch.

I think I also read that he didn't like kicks which makes me think he is in close range.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Thats one person who learned a technique from someone else. He did not create the technique and it is more likely that it was his preferred application and not the only one. I'm saying this because it takes very little pulling to break structure from a striking perspective but from a grappling perspective you'll need to put more into the pull. From the stories about him and from the from the kata that he trained, he was probably more of a close range fighter/grappler. If that is the reality of his fighting preference then he would only speak of pulling hand in terms of close rage grappling. Definitely if he's doing alot of clinch work.

His claim that no one ever punched him in the face makes me think that he was a close range fighter which makes it very difficult to land hay makers and straight punches or punches at all if some one is pulling on your opposite arm everything you try to punch.

I think I also read that he didn't like kicks which makes me think he is in close range.

Most all early Okinawan karate was close in - evading, grabbing, twisting, breaking, elbowing, kneeing, trapping, leg checking, takedowns... Keeping this in mind will reveal a lot about what kata moves really mean. It wasn't just one fighter's preference, it was a hallmark of the art.

Kicking was a big part of karate but mostly aimed low - bladder, groin, knee and inner thigh were main targets. The opponent was often grabbed prior to set up the kick and allow for control after the kick so further punishment could be inflicted.

This was combat self-defense karate - Nothing at all like competitive sport karate!!!!!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again,

Yet, you have asserted, though you claim not to. You are making implicit assertions when you challenge someone (like me) to find the opposite of something.

Of course, you could truly not know whether such systems (that only teach punches from low chamber) exist. Which would make all your arguing about it pretty meaningless, wouldn't it.

So, are you arguing meaninglessly, or do you actually believe there are systems that do this? (Hint: telling me to find an example of one that doesn't do it has nothing to do with answering the question.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funakoshi's hikite definition:

“The meaning of hitike is to grab the enemy’s arm and twist and pull as much as possible in order to break the enemy’s posture.”
- Gichin Funakoshi

Choki's quote on not chambering an empty hikite at the waist (?):

“There is no dead hand in Karate.”
- Motobu Choki

You have misquoted Funakoshi. It seems purposeful, since you quoted him more fully earlier in the thread, and someone mentioned the word you've now left out:

"Here (emphasis added) the meaning of hikite (pulling hand) is to grab the opponent’s arm and pull it..."

That wording reads like a reference to a specific application or situation.

 

[marvin8]

You have misquoted Funakoshi. It seems purposeful, since you quoted him more fully earlier in the thread, and someone mentioned the word you've now left out:

"Here (emphasis added) the meaning of hikite (pulling hand) is to grab the opponent’s arm and pull it..."

That wording reads like a reference to a specific application or situation.

It wasn't and isn't significant. An OP topic was "chambering an empty hikite," not grabbing and pulling an arm.

“Hikite (引手): Here the meaning of hikite (pulling hand) is to grab the opponent’s arm and pull it, while twisting as much as possible, so that their posture is disrupted” – Gichin Funakoshi

Hikite is to grab the opponent’s arm, pull it and unbalance them. It's not to throw a punch while chambering the other hand to the waist empty (dead hand). A pulling hand is used in combat sports and MAs. There is no argument. However, it doesn't require chambering to the waist.

Here's a video on Man Sau (Asking Hand) that keeps the hand in front to control the centerline and for faster grabbing/offense.

 

[drop bear]

Hi,

It's important to bear in mind that a proper karate technique involves movement which doesn't meet the eye. Ideally, it's executed with one's whole body, even though the visible part may showcase just a fraction of what's actually going on.

Now the way a technique is being practised in kihon, including the use of hiki-te, idealises it in terms of body mechanics. This doesn't suggest that it could be used in the same form in practical application, where a number of factors are to be taken into consideration--although an approximation might sometimes offer itself naturally (e.g., employing hiki-te as a grab/pull).

Nonetheless, it's reasonable to practise techniques in their extended or 'full' form in order to get proper body mechanics down.

Forcing structures to create technique is a more believable explanation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Gichin Funakoshi

His first martial arts was shuri-te "
Shuri-te places more emphasis on striking techniques and long-range combat."
If this is accurate then he would have been well trained with the fist at the waist. Shuri-te lineage:

This was taught to Kanga Sakugawa (1733 – 1815) who taught it to Bushi Sokon Matsumara
(1767 – 1869) creator of Bushi Te Kempo, Yogi Gosaka (1798 – 1881)

creator of the Pine Tree Wind School

and the only one to earn the Gold Belt Soke; and title of Supreme Grandmaster,
Choki Motobu (1870 – 1944), and Anko Itosu (1831 – 1915).

Chinese martial arts is well known for forms that don't look like the way people fight. Motobu was probably more application oriented meaning that he wanted his training to look more like fighting than concept. I say Fight like you train. I think he was more of a train like you fight type person. Which is usually a perspective from someone who knows how to fight and not someone who is learning to fight.

It's a similar path that the machidas took where they said that the don't train with the fist at the hip.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It wasn't and isn't significant. An OP topic was "chambering an empty hikite," not grabbing and pulling an arm.

So, since you're not talking about grabbing and pulling, you are using a quote about grabbing and pulling for what purpose?

See, you brought this in, and when I pointed out your misquote (and how leaving that word out supports your argument, whereas the full quote may not), you decided it wasn't important, because you're not talking about what you said the quote was about.

Why not stop running from the discussion you keep trying to have? Make your point, listen to what others say that either supports or argues against your point, and have an interesting discussion?

 

[marvin8]

Thats one person who learned a technique from someone else. He did not create the technique and it is more likely that it was his preferred application and not the only one. I'm saying this because it takes very little pulling to break structure from a striking perspective but from a grappling perspective you'll need to put more into the pull. From the stories about him and from the from the kata that he trained, he was probably more of a close range fighter/grappler. If that is the reality of his fighting preference then he would only speak of pulling hand in terms of close rage grappling. Definitely if he's doing alot of clinch work.

His claim that no one ever punched him in the face makes me think that he was a close range fighter which makes it very difficult to land hay makers and straight punches or punches at all if some one is pulling on your opposite arm everything you try to punch.

I think I also read that he didn't like kicks which makes me think he is in close range.

Your image as you mentioned shows Funakoshi pulling down in front, not chambering to waist. Here's a better example of Wing Chun on guard with an active wu sau (guard hand) in front.

I believe grabbing head control may be more effective than arm pulling. I have some MMA clips from closed stance lure the right hand, use jab hanger to block, grab head control then strike, clinch and/or throw. (I'll post another clip when I have more time.)

From open stance, Kiyoshi Arakaki uses lead hand to block jab, grab head control then strikes.

https://imgur.com/BdOjnFe

In Rousey vs McMann, Ronda uses jab hanger to block rear cross, grab head control to clinch.

https://imgur.com/OA3ojx9

In Rousey vs Tate, Ronda uses jab hanger to block rear cross, grab head control, clinch then uchi mata.

https://imgur.com/I5id2Mg

 

[Fungus]

My issue is that the beginner’s interpretations are often taught to simply mimic the movement from kata, including chambering an empty hikite, which plays no role in fighting in any sense, and which only builds bad habits, and harms the students ability to effectively apply a technique.

From the eperspective of a beginner rank in our kyokushin club, where we have separate fighting classes, we are explained that kihon forms are often supposed to have some optimal balance, or power, or sometimes simply having the purpose to "exaggerate" the actual movements in a fight. So training using exaggerated motions, makes the shortcuts more of a breeze.

Noone is given the illusion that this is how you actually fight, this refers both to stances and hikite position.

The exaggerated techiques may be optimally stronge and stable, but are too slow to work in a fight. In fighting it's compromise with power/stabilit and SPEED. The very lower stances are also not used in fighting except following a single strike or so, we are told it's a way to train your legs and balance to be stronger.

We are also taught that kata is basically just a way to train kihon techniques, and memorize (exaggerated) combinations on your own when you have no partner. The real thing is what you do in free fighting, and there you get to train also maintaining distance and timing (when at from what distance to attach), which seems impossible to learn from just kata?

We are also told that the habit of hikite pullback, translates into fighting so that you should always pullback your hands and limbs to fighting and guard position asap (but not to the kihon-position). Not let the limbs hang out there after impact. Exceptions would be if you invest in a strike-through or kick-trough attack with maxium force. But that is always more risk of getting limbs caught.

This is how I understand it so far. I enjoy the bunkai classes, the multiple interpretations doesn't bother me, it just makes is more fun.

 

[marvin8]

MMA coach Mike Winkeljohn explains pulling the opposite hand back to the chin, which is the Hackleman Hikite 2.0.

 

[marvin8]

From the eperspective of a beginner rank in our kyokushin club, where we have separate fighting classes, we are explained that kihon forms are often supposed to have some optimal balance, or power, or sometimes simply having the purpose to "exaggerate" the actual movements in a fight. So training using exaggerated motions, makes the shortcuts more of a breeze...

The exaggerated techiques may be optimally stronge and stable, but are too slow to work in a fight.

I believe Kikuno mentions your "exaggerate" here.

A series on Shutetsu explains the stretch when punching. Episode 3...