The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[marvin8]

If you’re not asserting that anyone is suggesting all punches in all drills should be taught with hikite, then why do you keep working so hard against something you apparently don’t think anyone is saying?

I'm not asserting nor suggesting that. I posted videos of Shotokan kata and drills chambering hikite to the waist with every punch. Because, you said...
.

Wait, did you just suggest some systems train all punches in drills with the off-hand low? I’ve never seen that, so I’d be interested in knowing what systems do it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hikite does nothing to teach fundamentals or basics of punching…there’s absolutely no reason to do hikite when punching if you don’t have something in that hand

This is because your definition and purpose for Hikite is to only do one thing and their is nothing beyond that motion.

Weird how boxers, kickboxers, nak muays, sambists, savateurs, pankrationers(?) can all manage to learn how to punch without hikite…

It's not weird. They are taught how to pull their hand back after they punch. They are taught the basics of the straight punch keeping elbows close to the body. Hikite trains this

I keep hearing that Hikite means grabbing something and pulling it. So here are my questions
1. Why do some kata open hand when extending then close hand when pulling?

2. Why do some kata extend with fist closed and pull with fist closed?

3. Why are 3 straight punch combos done with Hikite? Are you pulling someone then punching, then pushing then punching?

4. If Hikite is pulling then why make a fuss about keeping the guard up if you are pulling them down towards your waist?

5. When sparring have you ever pulled someone to your waist while in a punching bow stance.

6. If Hikite is useless then why is it in do many gorms.

7. Why are there techniques that take into account that their guard is low by following up with a technique to deal with an attack to that open space where their guard used to be?

Do you use Hikite? If so how do you use it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not asserting nor suggesting that. I posted videos of Shotokan kata and drills chambering hikite to the waist with every punch. Because, you said...
.

Yes, you posted those. But showing that training with empty hikite exists isn't at all evidence there's any system that ONLY teaches punching with a low chamber, which was what you suggested in the post my reply (the one you quoted) responds to.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is because your definition and purpose for Hikite is to only do one thing and their is nothing beyond that motion.


It's not weird. They are taught how to pull their hand back after they punch. They are taught the basics of the straight punch keeping elbows close to the body. Hikite trains this

I keep hearing that Hikite means grabbing something and pulling it. So here are my questions
1. Why do some kata open hand when extending then close hand when pulling?

2. Why do some kata extend with fist closed and pull with fist closed?

3. Why are 3 straight punch combos done with Hikite? Are you pulling someone then punching, then pushing then punching?

4. If Hikite is pulling then why make a fuss about keeping the guard up if you are pulling them down towards your waist?

5. When sparring have you ever pulled someone to your waist while in a punching bow stance.

6. If Hikite is useless then why is it in do many gorms.

7. Why are there techniques that take into account that their guard is low by following up with a technique to deal with an attack to that open space where their guard used to be?

Do you use Hikite? If so how do you use it?

One thing I'll note is that the pull to the waist may be training intent, rather than the actual path. If you train to pull empty-handed to the position you'd pull with resistance (pulling a person's arm, for instance), you'll practice a mechanic where you stop there, rather than where you pull until it stops itself. That difference in intent can change the mechanics enough to make a difference.

For instance, when I demonstrate our version of a leg sweep (quite similar to Judo's osotogari, in our most basic version), I'll often demonstrate pulling far across with the opposite arm (we pull uke's side perhaps closer to us than Judo does). In practice, I'll rarely get my arm as far out as I will in demos - certainly not as far as I will with a solo demo - since there's resistance to pull against when I'm actually usign the technique. But if I show students to only pull slightly outside, they'll pull with less force, and if they get the proprioception wrong (as students often do in a new technique), they won't pull nearly far enough, which can break the entire technique.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Misunderstanding occurs when we try to use karate to Box,
it is not Boxing . Karate is not based on trading strikes,
it is not based on attrition, it is not based on contention,
or matching strength against strength or physical skill
against physical skill which is done in Sport,
Karate is a martial Art that is based on principle,
that if applied correctly give your opponent no chances,
(certainly not more than the first one), and ends the conflict
as swiftly as possible. The Best karate has been applied
when the necessary results are achieved without physical engagement,
the best fight is no fight.
Karate can be used for kick boxing type
matches , but this is the karate introduced into the
educational system in Japan, and later Korea etc ,
for teaching purposes. As soon as we introduce weight
classes and division dependent competition that exchange
striking of any kind we have ceased to practice a martial
art and are trying to fit the round peg of Karate a MA, into the
square hole of boxing a sport.
To understand bunkai and layered bunkai we must approach kata as a Martial Art.

 

[marvin8]

Yes, you posted those. But showing that training with empty hikite exists isn't at all evidence there's any system that ONLY teaches punching with a low chamber, which was what you suggested in the post my reply (the one you quoted) responds to.

Since you are "interested in knowing what systems do it" and want evidence, why not research Shotokan karate? You can post other Shotokan kata and drills, that don't chamber empty hikite to the waist while punching, to prove the point you are arguing..

I did not "assert." I posted videos of chambering empty hikite in kata and drills. The kata and drills that I have seen in Shotokan karate chamber an empty hikite when they punch, except for people that changed it like the Machida Karate Academy.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I keep hearing that Hikite means grabbing something and pulling it. So here are my questions
1. Why do some kata open hand when extending then close hand when pulling?

2. Why do some kata extend with fist closed and pull with fist closed?

3. Why are 3 straight punch combos done with Hikite? Are you pulling someone then punching, then pushing then punching?

4. If Hikite is pulling then why make a fuss about keeping the guard up if you are pulling them down towards your waist?

5. When sparring have you ever pulled someone to your waist while in a punching bow stance.

6. If Hikite is useless then why is it in do many gorms.

1. It's likely an open hand block and then closing to grab and pull in.

2. Your grab is not visually shown, or the opponent is grabbing your wrist and you pull him in, using his grab against him.

3. Sometimes a punch is just a punch and such a combo is simply a strong blitzing linear attack to overrun the op.

4. Don't quite understand this question but if you're pulling him in, he is off balance and out of position so no need to worry about your guard. If you're at this point, the only worry is what your finishing blow will be.

5. Often - as much as I'm able, sometimes pulling lead arm down to waist to expose head, other times to pulling back a little higher to expose his ribs. Since I've moved in and to the outside there's a pivot involved.

6. It's not useless.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It actually does help teach some mechanics. You’re confusing “can be used for” with “the only tool for”. Depending upon the student, I may start teaching punches with or without that traditional chamber (essentially hikite, though we never used the term). For some folks, it was easier for them to develop proper mechanics with those traditional drills.

Hikite is what the Japanese call it. But everyone trains or drills some aspect of it in other systems. The biggest difference depends on how one defines it. If Hikite is only to grab clothing and pull then from that perspective only the Japanese do it.

If one defines it as pulling the hand back then you'll see it in almost every system and the usefulness of the motion becomes clearer or maybe the corr6term is that it becomes more valuable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

1. It's likely an open hand block and then closing to grab and pull in.

2. Your grab is not visually shown, or the opponent is grabbing your wrist and you pull him in, using his grab against him.

3. Sometimes a punch is just a punch and such a combo is simply a strong blitzing linear attack to overrun the op.

4. Don't quite understand this question but if you're pulling him in, he is off balance and out of position so no need to worry about your guard. If you're at this point, the only worry is what your finishing blow will be.

5. Often - as much as I'm able, sometimes pulling lead arm down to waist to expose head, other times to pulling back a little higher to expose his ribs. Since I've moved in and to the outside there's a pivot involved.

6. It's not useless.

Thanks for that. I'm trying to learn how to ease up on what I see vs how others see it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One thing I'll note is that the pull to the waist may be training intent, rather than the actual path. If you train to pull empty-handed to the position you'd pull with resistance

I tested it out two nights ago. I was trying to explore what. There is more resistance when pulling straight back. However, pulling back At a downward angle while twisting the palm upward takes away a lot of that resistance . That was the magic part of it for me. Jow Ga or Gung li has a similar technique, that turns the grip palm up then we strike the forearm and the grip comes of. I just can't remember which form. Probably the Gung li gorm

 

[JowGaWolf]

1. It's likely an open hand block and then closing to grab and pull in.

2. Your grab is not visually shown, or the opponent is grabbing your wrist and you pull him in, using his grab against him.

3. Sometimes a punch is just a punch and such a combo is simply a strong blitzing linear attack to overrun the op.

4. Don't quite understand this question but if you're pulling him in, he is off balance and out of position so no need to worry about your guard. If you're at this point, the only worry is what your finishing blow will be.

5. Often - as much as I'm able, sometimes pulling lead arm down to waist to expose head, other times to pulling back a little higher to expose his ribs. Since I've moved in and to the outside there's a pivot involved.

6. It's not useless.

Do you do these thing in closed stance or open stance?

 

[JowGaWolf]

1. It's likely an open hand block and then closing to grab and pull in.

2. Your grab is not visually shown, or the opponent is grabbing your wrist and you pull him in, using his grab against him.

3. Sometimes a punch is just a punch and such a combo is simply a strong blitzing linear attack to overrun the op.

4. Don't quite understand this question but if you're pulling him in, he is off balance and out of position so no need to worry about your guard. If you're at this point, the only worry is what your finishing blow will be.

5. Often - as much as I'm able, sometimes pulling lead arm down to waist to expose head, other times to pulling back a little higher to expose his ribs. Since I've moved in and to the outside there's a pivot involved.

6. It's not useless.

Do you do these things in a closed stance or an open stance?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Do you do these things in a closed stance or an open stance?

Not sure of this terminology.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you do these things in a closed stance or an open stance?

- Strikers like to pull in close stance (uniform stance, side door).
- Grappler like to pull in open stance (mirror stance, front door).

When you pull your opponent's arm in

- close stance (uniform stance), his leading arm can jam his own back arm.
- open stance (mirror stance), you have to deal with his back free arm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure of this terminology.

When your opponent is facing you do you mirror his stance when you apply hikite? This is based on your definition and understanding oh hikite

 

[isshinryuronin]

When your opponent is facing you do you mirror his stance when you apply hikite? This is based on your definition and understanding oh hikite

If opponent has left lead so will I. I will step with right foot, in and to his outside (Left) while my right hand deflects his lead left arm (and body) to his right, neutralizing any left counter. I will then grab that arm with my left and do hikite (or push it against his body) as I punch to kidney or head with my right. Ideally, I've mostly got his back at this point.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If opponent has left lead so will I. I will step with right foot, in and to his outside (Left) while my right hand deflects his lead left arm (and body) to his right, neutralizing any left counter. I will then grab that arm with my left and do hikite (or push it against his body) as I punch to kidney or head with my right. Ideally, I've mostly got his back at this point.

I should note that my manipulation of the opponent's lead arm would appear in kata as a right inside forearm block followed by a left outside forearm block.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I should note that my manipulation of the opponent's lead arm would appear in kata as a right inside forearm block followed by a left outside forearm block.

Is this the one where the arms cross? Right arm blocks as the left arm moves forward to begin its block. I think I've seen this in kata . I'm assuming the the left block is a failsafe in the event that you get the timing wrong. I'm trying to picture it before I leave work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I should note that my manipulation of the opponent's lead arm would appear in kata as a right inside forearm block followed by a left outside forearm block.

That sound like the "switch hands" principle.

- You block your opponent's punch with your right arm.
- You then use your left arm to take over the blocking.
- This will free your right arm to punch.

For some unknown reason, I have never seen the "switch hands" be used in boxing.

Does anybody know why?

 

[JowGaWolf]

That sound like the "switch hands" principle.

- You block your opponent's punch with your right arm.
- You then use your left arm to take over the blocking.
- This will free your right arm to punch.

For some unknown reason, I have never seen the "switch hands" be used in boxing.

Is it possible to do it with boxing gloves? I take that back. I think I've seen it in boxing before.