The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[JowGaWolf]

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[JowGaWolf]

MMA coach Mike Winkeljohn explains pulling the opposite hand back to the chin, which is the Hackleman Hikite 2.0.

Dude I don't even know what to say. So I'll ask your question. What is your purpose of posting something I have already stated in Post#2 and through out the thread? I have to ask because you added no context of the post that you made. Are you just providing extra info?

 

[marvin8]

Dude I don't even know what to say. So I'll ask your question. What is your purpose of posting something I have already stated in Post#2 and through out the thread? I have to ask because you added no context of the post that you made. Are you just providing extra info?

Fungus' post reminded me of the Winklejohn video, same concept. However, Winklejohn teaches to train as we fight. Your post #2 does not say chamber back to the "guard position."

We are also told that the habit of hikite pullback, translates into fighting so that you should always pullback your hands and limbs to fighting and guard position asap (but not to the kihon-position). Not let the limbs hang out there after impact. Exceptions would be if you invest in a strike-through or kick-trough attack with maxium force. But that is always more risk of getting limbs caught.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Fungus' post reminded me of the Winklejohn video, same concept. However, he teaches to train as we fight.

Ok. just making sure before I give you a real follow up. "Train as we fight" I understand and get it, right up until you learn something like long fist some other unfamiliar movement that your brain has not done before. I understand the "Train as we fight" but I don't like the phrasing. So the best way for me to comment on this is to just share my training.

Step 1: Learn the movement separate from fighting

Step 2: Forms and Drills
Explore the movement (I think about what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, and what I'm feeling as I do it.) This is where I want to make sure that timing and power connection are good. For me, my strike should feel like I can hurt someone with it. There should be a good connection of power. This is the most important step for me because I want to remember what it feels like. If my students can't feel that connection at this stage then everything else becomes useless.

Step 3: Shadow boxing
This is the transition phase where I learn to use the technique using fighting movement. This helps me to learn the footwork that I need in order to deploy it. Use what you Train

Step 4: Sparring
This is the final step of training. Learning how to use the technique in the context of Jow Ga vs other fighting systems and other fighting methods. Use what you Train

For me, Train as I fight starts at Step 3. I've seen people try to combine Step 1 - Step 2 and it doesn't turn out as well and I can see it in MMA fights. I can tell which fighters skipped Step 1: and Step 2:

Most martial arts students skip. Step 3 and Step 4, which I classify as "Use what you train." If train as I fight, then I'll be tempted to change things in the technique to fit how I hold my fist, instead of using a fist that is better suited for the technique. This is what I see with the MMA long fist strikes. They fight hitting with a certain row of knuckles, but it's not the best way or the safest way to hist with those knuckles. Because of this they make the technique less effective, open up weaknesses that can't be closed or covered, and increase the risk of damaging their hand.

The fist that is used in MMA for that long circular punch cannot hit the scull without injury. The fist that I use can deal with the impact of hitting the skull better. It's a specific fist for a specific technique so that we don't destroy our hand. The movement for this technique is also specific. If it's not done then it will likely fail if luck is not on your side.

 

[marvin8]

The fist that is used in MMA for that long circular punch cannot hit the scull without injury. The fist that I use can deal with the impact of hitting the skull better. It's a specific fist for a specific technique so that we don't destroy our hand. The movement for this technique is also specific. If it's not done then it will likely fail if luck is not on your side.

MMA punches generally don't target the skull, rather the chin, etc. We have bare knuckle boxing concepts too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

MMA punches generally don't target the skull, rather the chin, etc. We have bare knuckle boxing concepts too.

That's my point. In Jow Ga we can target the skull and we have techniques that do that. We have a strike that lands right on top of the head.

 

[isshinryuronin]

We are also told that the habit of hikite pullback, translates into fighting so that you should always pullback your hands and limbs to fighting and guard position asap (but not to the kihon-position). Not let the limbs hang out there after impact. Exceptions would be if you invest in a strike-through or kick-trough attack with maxium force. But that is always more risk of getting limbs caught.

It's not really hikite unless the bunkai is grabbing and pulling. Often, this means pulling the grabbing hand back to the hip to pull the opponent in for a strike, or to extend his arm exposing the elbow or shoulder to a joint lock, break or just to get leverage to move him around.

In most cases, pulling back to the hip accomplishes this. But there are situations, depending on what you want to do after the grab and your exact position relative to the opponent, where the hand needs to pull back slightly higher or lower. Nothing in a fight is set in stone, especially form. But form is the starting point for effective and efficient technique, even during a fight.

Your modified sport style of karate does not lend itself to hikite or many of the moves that can result from it. I definitely agree with your last three sentences of this quote.

to train also maintaining distance and timing (when at from what distance to attach), which seems impossible to learn from just kata?

You're right about this as well. Kata is not designed to do this. Although kata may provide some hints, actual full speed partner work and experience is needed to develop these skills.

 

[marvin8]

to train also maintaining distance and timing (when at from what distance to attach), which seems impossible to learn from just kata?

You're right about this as well. Kata is not designed to do this. Although kata may provide some hints, actual full speed partner work and experience is needed to develop these skills.

A kata could be designed to teach concepts to move from outside range, engagement range to exiting the line safely (all ranges) to a certain extent. Combat sports at the highest levels will teach, drill, shadow box and spar these concepts and movements.

Iain touches on this idea. However, I believe combat sports teaches and trains it more comprehensively.

Excerpt from "The Pinan / Heian Series as a Fighting System: Part One:"

If allowed to progress, a physical altercation will generally go through a series of stages: Pre-fight (verbal exchanges, aggressive body language), limbs coming into range (strikes, attempted grabs etc), grips being established, and finally grappling. Not every single fight will progress in exactly this way, but it should be obvious that a grip cannot be established until limbs come into range, and there will be no grappling until some kind of grip has been established. We should always aim to end fights as soon as possible so that the fight does not progress. Therefore, when teaching self-protection, it makes sense that we should deal with the earliest stages of the fight first. I believe this is the approach adopted by Itosu when formulating the Pinan Series...

In most cases, pulling back to the hip accomplishes this. But there are situations, depending on what you want to do after the grab and your exact position relative to the opponent, where the hand needs to pull back slightly higher or lower. Nothing in a fight is set in stone, especially form. But form is the starting point for effective and efficient technique, even during a fight.

Your modified sport style of karate does not lend itself to hikite or many of the moves that can result from it. I definitely agree with your last three sentences of this quote.

In my post #357, I gave a karate kata pulling head grab application (hikite in its kata) and a similar movement performed in MMA. Pulling an arm is common in combat sports, especially those that include clinching and grappling.

 

[Fungus]

I believe Kikuno mentions your "exaggerate" here.

A series on Shutetsu explains the stretch when punching. Episode 3...

As a low ranker, I enjoy some of these more detailed explanations. In the low ranked classes, instructors usually focus on the basic movements, not on these fine details. Probably in order to not make it more complicated, but I would prefer to see the detailes explained from start, as lacking them becomes evident as soon as you start striking with resistance rather than in air.

Putting the body weight into both strikes and kicks is something I personally try to do as a way to get more power while lacking the explosive rotations, just they mention in the video! But this is not something taught in the basic classes, it's more from experimenting with kihon techniques on the heavy bag on your own. Those most forceful attacks is also not something you want to apply in non-competitive friendly sparring as it will easily break ribs. So heavy bag work is still required IMO along with sparring.

 

[Fungus]

MMA punches generally don't target the skull, rather the chin, etc. We have bare knuckle boxing concepts too.

In that link they apply bare knuckle punches to the jaw bone using the weak(wrong?) knuckles. Sure it will knock the opponent out, but I would not want to launch such a punch full power without gloves. I can imagine it's easy to hurt your hands badly. Is that really recommended?

I would proably want to prefer a palm strike. I try to practice that on the heavy bag and you can get high energy into that and it feels safe for your hand. I imagine the head would get a really god spin from a palm strike to head.

Our instructors also warns for seiken strikes bare knuckle to the head in a self defence situation as the risk of injury yourself is high. IF you do it you must aim to make sure to strike with the right parts of the hand. If there is no time then recomment instead a jodan uke block to the head/neck, or an elbow to the head as "safer".

 

[marvin8]

In that link they apply bare knuckle punches to the jaw bone using the weak(wrong?) knuckles. Sure it will knock the opponent out, but I would not want to launch such a punch full power without gloves. I can imagine it's easy to hurt your hands badly. Is that really recommended?

I would proably want to prefer a palm strike. I try to practice that on the heavy bag and you can get high energy into that and it feels safe for your hand. I imagine the head would get a really god spin from a palm strike to head.

Our instructors also warns for seiken strikes bare knuckle to the head in a self defence situation as the risk of injury yourself is high. IF you do it you must aim to make sure to strike with the right parts of the hand. If there is no time then recomment instead a jodan uke block to the head/neck, or an elbow to the head as "safer".

He is turning over his jab. At least for vertical punches, they (e.g., Dempsey power line, Wing Chun) say to use the bottom 3 knuckles for alignment, etc.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I enjoy some of these more detailed explanations. In the low ranked classes, instructors usually focus on the basic movements, not on these fine details.

I think the reasoning behind this is because it's more of what you feel than it i instructions that you can give someone so that they can do the same thing. My guess is that teachers describe the feeling and then tell the student to go practice a thousand times.

In that link they apply bare knuckle punches to the jaw bone using the weak(wrong?) knuckles. Sure it will knock the opponent out, but I would not want to launch such a punch full power without gloves.

There are no weak knuckles. There is only specific places that knuckles can strike. Striking with the knuckles is not a one size fits all. Certain knuckles are used to strike certain areas.
The very first match shows a fighter using the fist where the thumb is on top instead of wrapped around the fingers. He strikes the Jaw with the so called "weak knuckles". There is less of a risk of breaking these knuckles because of the following reason
1. your opponent will not bend his forehead into the knuckles.
2. The punch travels outside the field of vision. Which basically means that he's not going to slip a punch that he can't see.
3. There's more soft areas on the side of the face than there is on the front of the face. Human biology builds it's natural toughness forward and not to the side. Things get really fragile on the side.

You can see this guy using the same type of fist here in the guard.

Techniques help you strike in ways that don't bust up your hand.

As far as full power. You can do this to the side of the head because the head moves. I wouldn't do this strike full power against a heavy bag.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IF you do it you must aim to make sure to strike with the right parts of the hand.

This is correct. Correct technique with the correct fist type. The aiming part is something that you should be doing anyway. The good thing about many of the TMA techniques is that they help to get the punch where it needs to be without you having to manually try to aim. A trap backfist usually lands in the same place all the time.

 

[Fungus]

He is turning over his jab. At least for vertical punches, they (e.g., Dempsey power line, Wing Chun) say to use the bottom 3 knuckles for alignment, etc.

Hmm I get the logic of alignment part if you do vertical punches. The time I feel vertial punches are "natural" and I probably use an extra knuckle is close range vertical punches to solar plexus or lower. For plexus punches i tend to aim the middle knucke at the xipohoid process, and hit "from below and upwards" and then all the knuckles seem to help, but I am unlikely to break my pinky bones from striking there I suppose so it feels safe. So in that case I would tend to agree.

That turned over jab he does, I don't see why he couldn't hit that with the two stronger knuckles instead? Not sure i follow why in that strike the three smalller knuckles would be preferred? Am I missing something?

 

[Fungus]

As far as full power. You can do this to the side of the head because the head moves. I wouldn't do this strike full power against a heavy bag.

As I don't compete or participate in brawls, I haven't tried to hit someone in the jaws bareknuckle, except by accident but that was with glowes. Maybe it's not as bad as I fear. Most of my own conclusions are based on testing the strikes at a heavy bag or padded harder objects, and I feel that I do not want to end up having my pinky knuckle takes a full impact on something hard.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most of my own conclusions are based on testing the strikes at a heavy bag or padded harder objects, and I feel that I do not want to end up having my pinky knuckle takes a full impact on something hard

Which fist did you use?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Too bad I didn't find this one much sooner. I like how he separates the power issue. The pulling back doesn't back fast doesn't generate punching power in the other arm. If I pull back really fast with my left arm, it doesn't make my right arm punch harder, but it will help turn my torso to send the other punch out faster.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Too bad I didn't find this one much sooner. I like how he separates the power issue. The pulling back doesn't back fast doesn't generate punching power in the other arm. If I pull back really fast with my left arm, it doesn't make my right arm punch harder, but it will help turn my torso to send the other punch out faster.

Must respect to this guy. Working out his techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Pull hand used in boxing. He pulls the punching hand across the body and then lands the punch. I'm not sure why there is a lot of amazement and talk about his reaction speed. We can literally see him fishing for the pull hand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 0.02 - 0.04, you can see a right punch turns into a grab/pull followed by a left punch. The right hand pulls back into a high guard and then turn into an elbow strike.

Not all punches have to pull back to the waist.