The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[JowGaWolf]

So I’ve been reading this thread and a student of mine sent some pictures he took without my permission. I noticed some things in my form I didn’t like, but I also noticed my back hand in a couple spots, thought I would show you.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On the previous page, I posted a Jion Shotokan Kata that chambered "empty hikite" to the waist with every punch, a topic in the OP. Also, I posted the Machida Tai Shodan Kata that does not chamber an empty hikite when punching.

Drills "chambering an empty hikite"...

That drills exist where the off hand is low doesn't establish that anyone trains that way in all drills, which was your assertion.

Apparently, JGW is arguing that, "hmmmm. I don't think they [the Machidas] are being completely honest there. They are too knowledgeable to not know how to use it in a fight. My guess is that he's in marketing mode. He picked something that most people think is useless and then showed how they train. My guess is that if they are still doing Kata in the school, that they are chambering the fist..."

An OP topic/argument...

Nope. He has not argued that every punch should be trained that way. He has argued that there is good reason to train that way, part of the time. I've seen nothing (including in any of your posts' inclusions, though it's possible I missed it) where someone is arguing to never not chamber low with the off hand.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The punching hand is not the pulling hand. It's the follow up hand after the pulling.. Lot of punching here.

I'm assuming that his belt is around his waist and not his stomach.

Please provide the time stamp to where you see an empty hand chambering in seiuchin kata (or any other kata in your videos). I'll be happy to address each particular technique you note in context. And yes, there are many hammer-fist strikes in seiuchin where the opponent's arm is being held or pulled in (but the "hammerfist" hand can also be applied with an armbar with your body being the fulcrum and both hands applying the pressure.)

Master Uechi's demo of isshinryu basics is very accurate. These drills focus on the simple execution of the technique for mechanical repetitive practice and not done in the context of a mutual combat, although the movements can be applied to it.

BTW, I'm impressed with your extensive research.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@Gerry Seymour
So I've been looking at various martial arts systems and decided to check to see if it was part of the oldest martial art Kalaripayattu. This the hand position when he does the spinning reverse punch.. Fist chambered at the hip. So the technique has survived all this time. My guess is that there is a good reason for it to be included in the form. I don't know if it's used in the forms or not.
View attachment 30512

I've never trained extensively in a system that actually chambered as low as the hip. I think my early Karate exposure didn't, but the little bit of Shotokan I did in my teens likely did - I don't have much memory of that. It'd be interesting to explore the mechanics of how it differs from the slightly higher chamber I learned (tucked by the ribs).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

JowGaWolf's definition in the first quote a couple of posts up is as good as any. I think the word "chambering" refers to prepping the hand to extend, or "fire" just as in racking a slug in a gun. If you chamber your (empty) returning hand just part way so your fist is still extended you can still call it chambering, but isn't it also simply resetting your guard from where you can execute an attack?

Most of the critical discussion here has been on bringing the returning fist to the hip, the point being this is an inefficient move and leaves one more open to attack as well as leaving the hand farther away from the opponent. There is truth to that, but in basic drilling this helps beginners to practice the biomechanics of punching.

But this movement appears in kata as well. However, this empty hand chambering is not as prevalent as it seems. MOST ALL such instances in kata are not true chambering as described above but represents grabbing and pulling the opponent in for an attack, especially in many Okinawan kata and likely in some Chinese as well (in more stylized systems this app is not stressed).

A number of kata have hardly any punches at all like naihanchi and seiuchin. Kusanku looks like there is some hip chambering, but if it's not part of a grabbing technique, the opponent has been immobilized or put out of position so there is little danger.

My main point: Empty chambering to the hip is RARE in traditional kata (depending on the style) and does not instill bad habits in the practitioner as long as one understands the true significance of the techniques.

I'd consider most guard positions (striking term, not BJJ/groundwork) include having one or more hands chambered to deliver a strike. So returning to guard - in most cases - is also chambering.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think I understand why the technique is in so many systems. now.
1. Hidden punch
2. Punch under vision
3. Grappling escape (someone tries to establish wrist control. quickly pull my hand back.)
4. If they grab onto my wrist quickly pull back while rotating palm up.. This will weakening their grip. Their willingness to maintain grip causes them to chase the hand which puts their face into punching range. Do it really quick in the punch should land right at the moment their attention is split.

Ive done the pull my opponent and punch my opponent but it's never towards me. It's always downward and at an angle and it doesn't require a big pull. It's a short put.

I think #4 + the other numerous applications is why it is found in so many systems. It's probably a very reliable escape.. If you chicken wing the pull then you'll get that limited twist in the wrist. But if you keep the arm close to the body then you get a fuller range of motion. A movement with different levels and different application.

The movement is only 2 movements that chain well with other techniques.

I think the pulling to the hip makes more sense if you think in Judo terms. Don't look at his demo of the approach - look at the complete throw. (I actually think he misses a couple of points in this demo, but it shows the pull.)

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'd consider most guard positions (striking term, not BJJ/groundwork) include having one or more hands chambered to deliver a strike. So returning to guard - in most cases - is also chambering.

I can see this. Since one always wants to be positioned to deliver a strike, this definition means one's hands are always chambered when not active. I'll agree this is a valid perspective on the matter.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you want to punch on your opponent's chest, will it be better to punch from your waist than to punch from your high guard? A horizontal line is shorter than a 45-degree downward line.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the pulling to the hip makes more sense if you think in Judo terms. Don't look at his demo of the approach - look at the complete throw. (I actually think he misses a couple of points in this demo, but it shows the pull.)

Pull to the waist is noticeable in this clip.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you want to punch on your opponent's chest, will it be better to punch from your waist than to punch from your high guard? A horizontal line is shorter than a 45-degree downward line.

I had to give this some thought. You are actually talking about two different things. @Tony Dismukes is taller than me. There is no way that my punch to his heart will be horizontal. Downward punches do not target the heart. Downward punches are close range punches where the distance is too short for horizontal punches to be effective

The shortest path is not always the best path. Overhand punches, uppercuts,, hook punches are good examples of where the shortest path was not the best path best.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The shortest path is not always the best path. Overhand punches, uppercuts,, hook punches are good examples of where the shortest path was not the best path best.

Short distance gives you speed. Long distance gives you power.

I just don't believe 1 inch punch can kill anybody. To me it's just a push.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I can see this. Since one always wants to be positioned to deliver a strike, this definition means one's hands are always chambered when not active. I'll agree this is a valid perspective on the matter.

Unless you are Wang lol.. his chambers lead to grappling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Short distance gives you speed. Long distance gives you power.

I just don't believe 1 inch punch can kill anybody. To me it's just a push.

Punches that are diagonally down are full range punches. They. used for close range. Same as upper cuts and hooks that can be used close range.

There is a reason why diagonal doward punches are found in a lot of systems. They are effective. Feel free to try this punch and to receive this punch. Then you will know the first hand. Do not not use gloves if you try. Focus on technique and not power. Do not punch hard with these punches.

 

[GojuTommy]

JowGaWolf's definition in the first quote a couple of posts up is as good as any. I think the word "chambering" refers to prepping the hand to extend, or "fire" just as in racking a slug in a gun. If you chamber your (empty) returning hand just part way so your fist is still extended you can still call it chambering, but isn't it also simply resetting your guard from where you can execute an attack?

Most of the critical discussion here has been on bringing the returning fist to the hip, the point being this is an inefficient move and leaves one more open to attack as well as leaving the hand farther away from the opponent. There is truth to that, but in basic drilling this helps beginners to practice the biomechanics of punching.

But this movement appears in kata as well. However, this empty hand chambering is not as prevalent as it seems. MOST ALL such instances in kata are not true chambering as described above but represents grabbing and pulling the opponent in for an attack, especially in many Okinawan kata and likely in some Chinese as well (in more stylized systems this app is not stressed).

A number of kata have hardly any punches at all like naihanchi and seiuchin. Kusanku looks like there is some hip chambering, but if it's not part of a grabbing technique, the opponent has been immobilized or put out of position so there is little danger.

My main point: Empty chambering to the hip is RARE in traditional kata (depending on the style) and does not instill bad habits in the practitioner as long as one understands the true significance of the techniques.

Hikite does nothing to teach fundamentals or basics of punching…there’s absolutely no reason to do hikite when punching if you don’t have something in that hand.

Weird how boxers, kickboxers, nak muays, sambists, savateurs, pankrationers(?) can all manage to learn how to punch without hikite…

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Weird how boxers, kickboxers, nak muays, sambists, savateurs, pankrationers(?) can all manage to learn how to punch without hikite…

If you punch from the waist, it's easier to coordinate your punch with your "back knee bend -> back knee straight" and hip rotation.

Since boxing uses high stance and punch from high guard, "back knee bend -> back knee straight" and hip rotation are not emphasized in their training.

I can't speak for Karate, but for CMA,

- Power come from bottom -> up.
- Power come from back -> forth.
- All body parts use twisting power (silk reeling).

 

[marvin8]

.

 

[marvin8]

If you punch from the waist, it's easier to coordinate your punch with your "back knee bend -> back knee straight" and hip rotation.

Since boxing uses high stance and punch from high guard, "back knee bend -> back knee straight" and hip rotation are not emphasized in their training.

I can't speak for Karate, but for CMA,

- Power come from bottom -> up.
- Power come from back -> forth.
- All body parts use twisting power (silk reeling).

No, boxing uses...

- Trunk rotation
- Power come from bottom -> up.
- Power come from back -> forth.
- Elastic energy
- Whole body torque

Excerpts from "Kinematic and kinetic analysis of throwing a straight punch: the role of trunk rotation in delivering a powerful straight punch:"

RAT TONG-IAM1, PORNTHEP RACHANAVY2, CHAIPAT LAWSIRIRAT on December 08, 2017

The result showed straight punches had 3 stages, i.e., (1) starting position, (2) lead toe off, and (3) lead toe in. The results suggested that the final stage, lead toe in, was the most important in delivering powerful straight punches, and boxers used trunk rotation to transform vertical ground reaction force to horizontal punch force....

At this stage, boxers used the lead leg as a pivot point and executed straight punches such that only lead leg supported the body weight and the rear leg bore no GRF. At this stage, GRF of the rear leg decreased, while GRF of the lead leg increased, which was exactly opposite from the starting position or the first stage. From Figure 1d, the directions of GRF of the lead leg and punch force were not in the same direction. As a result, the participants utilized the lead leg as a break to stabilize their movement.... As seen in Figure 2, the kinetic chain of straight punches occurred after 70% of total punching time meaning that the whole kinetic chain was created and ended at this final stage....

Trunk Rotation in Straight Punches

Figure 1 shows phases of straight punches and GRFs for both legs.

Trunk rotation played significant role in transferring kinetic chain from the lower extremity to the upper extremity. Our results showed that the trunk was relatively unmoved at the beginning of punching as shown in Figure 2. The movement of trunk started approximately after 70% of total punching time (the right panel of Figure 2). The angular velocity tended to increase after this point. The participants, then, sped up trunk rotation after 80% of total punching time until impact.

The trunk rotation played crucial role in LTI or the final stage of punching. At LTI, the displacement angle of trunk rotation was greatest (at 80% of punching time). Angular velocity of trunk rotation increased as GRF of the lead leg increased while GRF of the rear leg decreased. The lead leg acted as a pivot point, while the rear leg pushed the trunk and the whole body of boxers forward to create punching momentum and, thus, punch force. Therefore, trunk rotation mechanically transferred vertical ground reaction forces to horizontal punching force. The peak angular velocity of trunk rotation was achieved at impact....

The final stage, which was lead toe in, was crucial in delivering powerful force.

 

[marvin8]

That drills exist where the off hand is low doesn't establish that anyone trains that way in all drills, which was your assertion.

I did not "assert." I posted videos of chambering empty hikite in kata and drills. The kata and drills that I have seen in Shotokan karate chamber an empty hikite when they punch, except for people that changed it like the Machida Karate Academy.

Nope. He has not argued that every punch should be trained that way.

I did not say he argued that directly. JGW appeared to argue the 30 seconds limited Machida hikite demo. In that demo, Lyoto says karatekas are training empty hikite to the waist with their punches [implied every]. Instead, they should train with their hand near the chin [not the waist]. Because, your defense and attacks are faster as the distance is shorter.

An argument that attempts to argue a point other than the original proposition (unintentionally or not) is an informal fallacy, which impedes progress of discussion. I believe a correct, direct argument to the Machidas, et al. is "One should train every punch (not pull) in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist, because..."

I've seen nothing (including in any of your posts' inclusions, though it's possible I missed it) where someone is arguing to never not chamber low with the off hand.

No one is arguing that. The OP, Machidas, Iain, Hackleman and "Hikite – The Withdrawing Hand" and Atlas argue to not train chambering your empty hand to your waist while punching.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hikite does nothing to teach fundamentals or basics of punching…there’s absolutely no reason to do hikite when punching if you don’t have something in that hand.

Weird how boxers, kickboxers, nak muays, sambists, savateurs, pankrationers(?) can all manage to learn how to punch without hikite…

It actually does help teach some mechanics. You’re confusing “can be used for” with “the only tool for”. Depending upon the student, I may start teaching punches with or without that traditional chamber (essentially hikite, though we never used the term). For some folks, it was easier for them to develop proper mechanics with those traditional drills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I did not "assert." I posted videos of chambering empty hikite in kata and drills. The kata and drills that I have seen in Shotokan karate chamber an empty hikite when they punch, except for people that changed it like the Machida Karate Academy.


I did not say he argued that directly. JGW appeared to argue the 30 seconds limited Machida hikite demo. In that demo, Lyoto says karatekas are training empty hikite to the waist with their punches [implied every]. Instead, they should train with their hand near the chin [not the waist]. Because, your defense and attacks are faster as the distance is shorter.

An argument that attempts to argue a point other than the original proposition (unintentionally or not) is an informal fallacy, which impedes progress of discussion. I believe a correct, direct argument to the Machidas, et al. is "One should train every punch (not pull) in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist, because..."


No one is arguing that. The OP, Machidas, Iain, Hackleman and "Hikite – The Withdrawing Hand" and Atlas argue to not train chambering your empty hand to your waist while punching.

If you’re not asserting that anyone is suggesting all punches in all drills should be taught with hikite, then why do you keep working so hard against something you apparently don’t think anyone is saying?