The layered bunkai theory is stupid

[Kung Fu Wang]

For me chambering occurs every time you pull you strike back to prepare for another strike. So for me there is a lot of chambering going on. I

In my 8 moves combo clip, there are 3 strikes and 5 grab/pulls. At the end of grab/pull, it turns into a strike. So, the starting point of the strike is the ending point of the grab/pull. Sine the ending point of grab/pull doesn't have to be on the waist, the starting point of the strike also doesn't have to start from the waist position.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sine the ending point of grab/pull doesn't have to be on the waist, the starting point of the strike also doesn't have to start from the waist position.

Correct. The way that I define and understand chamber is that it doesn't have to be at the hip. It is only the action of pulling the hand back to the necessary point in which the arm is bent and ready to extend as a strike, block, jab, or to grab something. What is done when the arm extends is irrelevant to chamber. Bend the arm preps the arm for extension.

Attacker: The right arm is chambered the left arm is not. Defender: Both arms are chambered. The bent arms are in a position to where they can extend to grab or strike.

There are exception when it comes to long fist techniques where the arm's ready position is sometimes extended. Instead of the hand being pulled back the entire arm is pulled back. as shown in the example below.. Long fist can start from the hands up guard position or it can start from a hands down position. My hands can be by my side and I can start the strike without bending my arms, but it requires the pull back of my arm in order to send it. The further back the pull the stronger the punch will be.

The reason my definition of "chambered" includes a lot of things is because things fall apart and become less clear when the definition becomes too specific. For example if chambering is only when the fist is at the hip, The what is it call when the fist is pulled back at the chest, or what is it called when the arm is pulled behind the body like in my example, Or what if it's just a small bend while in high guard? or in long guard?? To give those specific names makes things confusing. But I'm willing to bet that there is no specific name to those other examples. I also notice that people who define chambering as only one specific position (at the waist) tend to be less happy and have trouble understanding other things, which turns into complaints about something being useless or doesn't work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To extend all your punches would make you slower and vulnerable to counters.

You do train it but separately. However, a reasonable argument was not given as to why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.

If the default is keep your hands up in a fight and we fight how we train, then the default in training would be keep your hands up.

Wait, did you just suggest some systems train all punches in drills with the off-hand low? I’ve never seen that, so I’d be interested in knowing what systems do it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay. However, a reasonable argument would give an answer why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.

No one is arguing that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No one is arguing that.

Even if they were the answer would still be the same lol. Not sure why there always have to be an argument.

If someone is telling another person how they make a cake, does there need to be an argument? An argument would not change the instructions on how the person makes the cake. lol.

 

[marvin8]

Wait, did you just suggest some systems train all punches in drills with the off-hand low? I’ve never seen that, so I’d be interested in knowing what systems do it.

On the previous page, I posted a Jion Shotokan Kata that chambered "empty hikite" to the waist with every punch, a topic in the OP. Also, I posted the Machida Tai Shodan Kata that does not chamber an empty hikite when punching.

Drills "chambering an empty hikite"...

No one is arguing that.

Apparently, JGW is arguing that, "hmmmm. I don't think they [the Machidas] are being completely honest there. They are too knowledgeable to not know how to use it in a fight. My guess is that he's in marketing mode. He picked something that most people think is useless and then showed how they train. My guess is that if they are still doing Kata in the school, that they are chambering the fist..."

An OP topic/argument...

My issue is that the beginner’s interpretations are often taught to simply mimic the movement from kata, including chambering an empty hikite, which plays no role in fighting in any sense, and which only builds bad habits, and harms the students ability to effectively apply a technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Apparently, JGW is arguing that, "hmmmm. I don't think they [the Machidas] are being completely honest there.

Why are you going back to that when my comment clearly states that it's my definition? It doesn't matter what the Machidas think or how they defined it. This is about how I define it and not how they define it.

The reason my definition of "chambered" includes a lot of things is because things fall apart and become less clear when the definition becomes too specific. For example if chambering is only when the fist is at the hip, The what is it call when the fist is pulled back at the chest, or what is it called when the arm is pulled behind the body like in my example, Or what if it's just a small bend while in high guard? or in long guard?? To give those specific names makes things confusing. But I'm willing to bet that there is no specific name to those other examples. I also notice that people who define chambering as only one specific position (at the waist) tend to be less happy and have trouble understanding other things, which turns into complaints about something being useless or doesn't work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Correct. The way that I define and understand chamber is that it doesn't have to be at the hip. It is only the action of pulling the hand back to the necessary point in which the arm is bent and ready to extend as a strike, block, jab, or to grab something. What is done when the arm extends is irrelevant to chamber. Bend the arm preps the arm for extension.

Attacker: The right arm is chambered the left arm is not. Defender: Both arms are chambered. The bent arms are in a position to where they can extend to grab or strike.
View attachment 30510

There are exception when it comes to long fist techniques where the arm's ready position is sometimes extended. Instead of the hand being pulled back the entire arm is pulled back. as shown in the example below.. Long fist can start from the hands up guard position or it can start from a hands down position. My hands can be by my side and I can start the strike without bending my arms, but it requires the pull back of my arm in order to send it. The further back the pull the stronger the punch will be.

View attachment 30511

The reason my definition of "chambered" includes a lot of things is because things fall apart and become less clear when the definition becomes too specific. For example if chambering is only when the fist is at the hip, The what is it call when the fist is pulled back at the chest, or what is it called when the arm is pulled behind the body like in my example, Or what if it's just a small bend while in high guard? or in long guard?? To give those specific names makes things confusing. But I'm willing to bet that there is no specific name to those other examples. I also notice that people who define chambering as only one specific position (at the waist) tend to be less happy and have trouble understanding other things, which turns into complaints about something being useless or doesn't work.

This response is to KungFu Wangs comment not the Machidas. I've moved on from there.. I'm happy with how I define and see chambering because it doesn't create confusion, it doesn't have any of the problems that other people point out, it's functional, and all of the pieces fit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Gerry Seymour
So I've been looking at various martial arts systems and decided to check to see if it was part of the oldest martial art Kalaripayattu. This the hand position when he does the spinning reverse punch.. Fist chambered at the hip. So the technique has survived all this time. My guess is that there is a good reason for it to be included in the form. I don't know if it's used in the forms or not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My understanding of chambering heights.

High chambers are for strikes and pulls that have a high targe
Mid chambers are for strikes that are either high or low
Low strikes or pulls that travel under the field of vision or used to hide thand and it's intent.

The technique being used will determine how much to pull back and which type of chambiner that needs to be done.. Take note of the palm up on the chamber.

Body hides the punch. Again palm up on the chamber at hip.

If I was training any martial arts I would definitely explore the variation of the things that can be done from that hand position. I would probably start with way to hide a strike


I took a look at a Judo match and was originally looking for pulling hand where they are grabbing what I noticed was that there were lots of times when they are pulling their hands back really fast in order to break a grip.. Those type of pulling looked more similar to the pulling back the fist in striking.

Notice how far the arm is pulling the hand back.

 

[isshinryuronin]

JowGaWolf's definition in the first quote a couple of posts up is as good as any. I think the word "chambering" refers to prepping the hand to extend, or "fire" just as in racking a slug in a gun. If you chamber your (empty) returning hand just part way so your fist is still extended you can still call it chambering, but isn't it also simply resetting your guard from where you can execute an attack?

Most of the critical discussion here has been on bringing the returning fist to the hip, the point being this is an inefficient move and leaves one more open to attack as well as leaving the hand farther away from the opponent. There is truth to that, but in basic drilling this helps beginners to practice the biomechanics of punching.

But this movement appears in kata as well. However, this empty hand chambering is not as prevalent as it seems. MOST ALL such instances in kata are not true chambering as described above but represents grabbing and pulling the opponent in for an attack, especially in many Okinawan kata and likely in some Chinese as well (in more stylized systems this app is not stressed).

A number of kata have hardly any punches at all like naihanchi and seiuchin. Kusanku looks like there is some hip chambering, but if it's not part of a grabbing technique, the opponent has been immobilized or put out of position so there is little danger.

My main point: Empty chambering to the hip is RARE in traditional kata (depending on the style) and does not instill bad habits in the practitioner as long as one understands the true significance of the techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think I understand why the technique is in so many systems. now.
1. Hidden punch
2. Punch under vision
3. Grappling escape (someone tries to establish wrist control. quickly pull my hand back.)
4. If they grab onto my wrist quickly pull back while rotating palm up.. This will weakening their grip. Their willingness to maintain grip causes them to chase the hand which puts their face into punching range. Do it really quick in the punch should land right at the moment their attention is split.

Ive done the pull my opponent and punch my opponent but it's never towards me. It's always downward and at an angle and it doesn't require a big pull. It's a short put.

I think #4 + the other numerous applications is why it is found in so many systems. It's probably a very reliable escape.. If you chicken wing the pull then you'll get that limited twist in the wrist. But if you keep the arm close to the body then you get a fuller range of motion. A movement with different levels and different application.

The movement is only 2 movements that chain well with other techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

but isn't it also simply resetting your guard from where you can execute an attack?

Yes. I believe this is correct as well. Sometimes resetting to guard also resets the punch as well. It's not an either or thing. It accomplishes more than one thing at once. I think that's why it sticks out in so many systems. It's the one thing that is the most important that no one should forget and a lot of people either forgot or didn't make the connection with how they pull their hand back.

Which again makes sense if people only see it as "One thing", then they would have no need to compare the other cases where they pull their arm back.

Most of the critical discussion here has been on bringing the returning fist to the hip, the point being this is an inefficient move and leaves one more open to attack as well as leaving the hand farther away from the opponent.

The hand is only farther away depending on your the distance that your torso is from the body. If the punch is at an angle then it's a close range punch. These are close range punch techniques that allow a person to strike with maximum power. These have an advantage over the other non-diagonal punches that need a longer range to be effective.. If you are holding onto my wrist then I can simply chamber my fist very quickly which will bring you closer to range. The timing seems to be built in that as soon as the pulling and twisting of my forearm splits your attention from hitting me to trying to old onto me.

However, this empty hand chambering is not as prevalent as it seems. MOST ALL such instances in kata are not true chambering as described above but represents grabbing and pulling the opponent in for an attack, especially in many Okinawan kata and likely in some Chinese as well (in more stylized systems this app is not stressed).

If I define chambering as "True chambering" then a lot of stuff starts to break because it doesn't explain similar motions or exact same motions. For example, Jow Ga has a technique that pulls back into chamber an it' ued to break a grip. The succes rate is over 90+ and after the break I can strike my oppnent's face becuaese the technique of pulling my hand back also bring my opponent with in range where I can punch him with a diagonal punch but he cannot punch me with a horizontoal punch..

The video that I posted of an old man standing with the hand to the Hip and he KO'd the trouble maker with one punch probabbly worked because that chamber hid the fist. I never seen it used like that until the video. It wasn't a fluke, he was setting up that punch. and everything was well timed.

My main point: Empty chambering to the hip is RARE in traditional kata

Name a kata and I'll show you where I see chambering. Also the chamber at the hip is not for every technique. It's technique specific.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A number of kata have hardly any punches at all like naihanchi and seiuchin.

The punching hand is not the pulling hand. It's the follow up hand after the pulling.. Lot of punching here.

I'm assuming that his belt is around his waist and not his stomach.

Many of the blocks look like a lot of hammer fist strikes. A block is a strike, a strike is a block. The only reason I say this is because we have that same movement in Jow Ga.. I've had these types of blocks done to me and they hurt.

Is this an accurate video? Tatsuo Shimabuku Founder of Isshin ryu Karate performs all Isshin-Ryu Kata

 

[JowGaWolf]

JowGaWolf's definition in the first quote a couple of posts up is as good as any. I think the word "chambering" refers to prepping the hand to extend, or "fire" just as in racking a slug in a gun. If you chamber your (empty) returning hand just part way so your fist is still extended you can still call it chambering, but isn't it also simply resetting your guard from where you can execute an attack?

Most of the critical discussion here has been on bringing the returning fist to the hip, the point being this is an inefficient move and leaves one more open to attack as well as leaving the hand farther away from the opponent. There is truth to that, but in basic drilling this helps beginners to practice the biomechanics of punching.

But this movement appears in kata as well. However, this empty hand chambering is not as prevalent as it seems. MOST ALL such instances in kata are not true chambering as described above but represents grabbing and pulling the opponent in for an attack, especially in many Okinawan kata and likely in some Chinese as well (in more stylized systems this app is not stressed).

A number of kata have hardly any punches at all like naihanchi and seiuchin. Kusanku looks like there is some hip chambering, but if it's not part of a grabbing technique, the opponent has been immobilized or put out of position so there is little danger.

My main point: Empty chambering to the hip is RARE in traditional kata (depending on the style) and does not instill bad habits in the practitioner as long as one understands the true significance of the techniques.

What is your definition of the following?
Chambered
Chambering
Pulling hand.

If you can tell me how you define these then I can better understand your perception as well as how you define the other things that I may see as chambering but you may see as something else..

 

[JowGaWolf]

The punching hand is not the pulling hand. It's the follow up hand after the pulling.. Lot of punching here.

I'm assuming that his belt is around his waist and not his stomach.
View attachment 30515


Many of the blocks look like a lot of hammer fist strikes. A block is a strike, a strike is a block. The only reason I say this is because we have that same movement in Jow Ga.. I've had these types of blocks done to me and they hurt.

Is this an accurate video? Tatsuo Shimabuku Founder of Isshin ryu Karate performs all Isshin-Ryu Kata

Is this accurate?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sine the ending point of grab/pull doesn't have to be on the waist, the starting point of the strike also doesn't have to start from the waist position.

Correct. The way that I define and understand chamber is that it doesn't have to be at the hip. It is only the action of pulling the hand back to the necessary point in which the arm is bent and ready to extend as a strike, block, jab, or to grab something. What is done when the arm extends is irrelevant to chamber. Bend the arm preps the arm for extension.

Attacker: The right arm is chambered the left arm is not. Defender: Both arms are chambered. The bent arms are in a position to where they can extend to grab or strike.
View attachment 30510

There are exception when it comes to long fist techniques where the arm's ready position is sometimes extended. Instead of the hand being pulled back the entire arm is pulled back.

The punching hand is not the pulling hand. It's the follow up hand after the pulling.. Lot of punching here.

I'm assuming that his belt is around his waist and not his stomach.
View attachment 30515


Many of the blocks look like a lot of hammer fist strikes. A block is a strike, a strike is a block. The only reason I say this is because we have that same movement in Jow Ga.. I've had these types of blocks done to me and they hurt.

Is this an accurate video? Tatsuo Shimabuku Founder of Isshin ryu Karate performs all Isshin-Ryu Kata

Is this accurate?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Last one.. Is this accurate. I'm just trying to get a few reference points.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Last one.. Is this accurate. I'm just trying to get a few reference points.

So I’ve been reading this thread and a student of mine sent some pictures he took without my permission. I noticed some things in my form I didn’t like, but I also noticed my back hand in a couple spots, thought I would show you.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Last one.. Is this accurate. I'm just trying to get a few reference points.

Notice only a partial chamber in one shot and a full chamber in another. I included the high stance just to show that is also a chamber, just not at the hip. I use it sometimes, ( reverse punch ) but not always, not even mostly. It’s useful to me for some things and not useful for others. My view is that is just a tool in the box, same with different fists or hand positions. I apologize for the poor quality of the photos and for my sloppy posture.