The layered bunkai theory is stupid

While TMA does delve into these things to a good extent, it was not designed for fighting combat sports professionals, but against the attacks one may encounter in common self-defense situations. The odds of coming up against a professionally trained fighter during our daily lives is very remote.
I agree. I can see that TMA may be more for closer range fighting, grabs, grappling, etc. where the knowledge can be the same or different. I am thinking more from outside range to first contact where more of the difference is.

Military special forces combat, pro sports combat and karate combat are three different things designed for different purposes. Each has a niche in the martial world. Beyond this, trying to compare the three has limited value.
Yes, there are different situations (e.g., weapons) and purposes. However, combat sports fights in all ranges and has proven to work in the street as well.
 
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While TMA does delve into these things to a good extent, it was not designed for fighting combat sports professionals, but against the attacks one may encounter in common self-defense situations. The odds of coming up against a professionally trained fighter during our daily lives is very remote.

Military special forces combat, pro sports combat and karate combat are three different things designed for different purposes. Each has a niche in the martial world. Beyond this, trying to compare the three has limited value.
If that was the case. Then you would keep your hands up.
 
Kata and martial arts rarely delve as deep as professional combat sports (at the highest levels) into the physics and strategies between two fighters.
It's not the kata that is the issue. It's the student. Most students don't dig deep or they restrict kata to only mean one thing with no variation. Kata also takes physics and strategies between two fighters into consideration. People who know how to use the techniques found in kata will tell you that it's impossible for the technique to work without understanding the physics and strategies behind them.

Thee's no way to effectively use a long fist striking technique without understanding the physics, psychology, and strategy behind it. Jow Ga Sei Ping first 4 movements after the bow translates into the following techniques.. When I train those 4 movements, this is what I have access to.
  1. Jab
  2. Evade from wrist grab
  3. Escape from wrist grab
  4. High elbow to the face of someone standing being me
  5. High chamber for (elbow strike is not done but could be from the high chamber)
  6. Vertical backfist
  7. Ebow to the rear.
  8. Chamber for follow up puch.
  9. Jab + Backfist Combo
  10. Escape wristgrab + Backfist counter
  11. Jab + backfist + Jab combo.
The only way you can see these 11 things is if you dig deeper. If all you see are the 4 movement. Jab -> pull arm back - backfist - chamber at the hip. Then you are missing alot of the kung fu. Most Jow Ga students who study for decades may never see or know that these exists beyond Jab -> pull arm back - backfist - chamber at the hip.

This is the truth of Kata and Forms.
 
chamber at the hip.
So far, we have not addressed the benefit of chambering that can give your punching arm the maximum reach.

superman_punch.webp
 
So far, we have not addressed the benefit of chambering that can give your punching arm the maximum reach.

View attachment 30507
We have. At certain distances or positions, you can drop or chamber your other empty hand. Also, you can lure opponents' attack by dropping your other hand. It's a guiding principle. However, it's important to know when you can break it.

Their argument is "Don't train chambering an empty hikite after each punch." Because, it can develop bad habits, get you hurt or KOd. It's a longer distance and slower for both attacks and defense. Also, keeping your guard in front of you controls the space and centerline (e.g., man sau).
 
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So far, we have not addressed the benefit of chambering that can give your punching arm the maximum reach.
It sounds easy so I'm guessing that it really isn't easy to talk about cambering since there's a lot of crazy stuff out there. Stuff that I never knew people were talking about. Some of it is over complicating things. But if you go down that Tunnel I'm sure @marvin8 will follow you lol.
 
It sounds easy so I'm guessing that it really isn't easy to talk about cambering since there's a lot of crazy stuff out there. Stuff that I never knew people were talking about. Some of it is over complicating things. But if you go down that Tunnel I'm sure @marvin8 will follow you lol.
The issue is if you don't train how to extend your punch to the maximum distance, in fight, you won't be able to do it.

When I punch on my heavy bag, one training that I like to do is to extend my left arm forward as far as I can, I then punch my right arm and try to extend as far as I can. When I do that, my left hand is pulling back as far as I can.
 
Then you would keep your hands up.
This should be the basic rule, unless there is a reason not to. For example, if you're trying to entice the opponent into a particular line of attack and so manipulate his action. Or if you have hold of him and are pulling him in or down as part of your attack. Or the opponent is out of position/balance which allows you to do most anything. Or to confuse a not-too-bright opponent. Or if your arm is broke but you're bravely continuing the fight.
 
The issue is if you don't train how to extend your punch to the maximum distance, in fight, you won't be able to do it.

When I punch on my heavy bag, one training that I like to do is to extend my left arm forward as far as I can, I then punch my right arm and try to extend as far as I can. When I do that, my left hand is pulling back as far as I can.
To extend all your punches would make you slower and vulnerable to counters.

You do train it but separately. However, a reasonable argument was not given as to why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.

If the default is keep your hands up in a fight and we fight how we train, then the default in training would be keep your hands up.

 
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However, a reasonable argument was not given as to why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.
Kata trains mechanics of movement and allows you to focus on things that do not have the luxury to think about when sparring and drilling.

This is reasonable but as to if someone believes it? That has more to do with their willingness to believe someone who trains it and gets a lot from it. The 4 movement example that I gave is born from doing forms and not from trying to think of it when sparring or drilling.
 
To extend all your punches would make you slower and vulnerable to counters.
I do both the power training (long arm) and the speed training (short arm). IMO, both training is needed.

Here is a speed training that I do without chambering to the waist.

 
However, a reasonable argument was not given as to why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.
Kata trains mechanics of movement and allows you to focus on things that do not have the luxury to think about when sparring and drilling. This is reasonable but as to if someone believes it? That has more to do with their willingness to believe someone who trains it and gets a lot from it.
No one is arguing against that.

The 4 movement example that I gave is born from doing forms and not from trying to think of it when sparring or drilling.
Okay. However, a reasonable argument would give an answer why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.

Hands up should be the default position.
 
No one is arguing against that.
I wrote that because of your statement below.:
You do train it but separately. However, a reasonable argument was not given as to why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.
If you understand that it trains mechanics then there's no need worry if one trains every punch in kata by chambering. So long a the chamber fits the technique. Drilling is the same so long as the drills are for kata and not for sparring.

Okay. However, a reasonable argument would give an answer why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.
Kata trains mechanics of movement and allows you to focus on things that do not have the luxury to think about when sparring and drilling.
My answer is still this. If you understand this, then there's no need for the question "why one should train every punch in kata or drills by chambering your other empty hand to your waist.

In general the mechanics that are most important to a system are often the things that repeat often. So you'll see beginner technique included in and advance form.
 
I do both the power training (long arm) and the speed training (short arm). IMO, both training is needed.

Here is a speed training that I do without chambering to the waist.

Right. You don't train chambering every punch, nor would you do that in a fight. It's not necessary to chamber your hand to your waist to generate power.

In Wilder vs Helenius, Wilder steps back luring Helenius to follow. As Helenius shifts his weight to the front foot and punches, Wilder rolls back, then shifts his weight to the front foot and issues short right hand KOing Helenius.

Wilder in post fight interview, "I was making him reach, trying to keep my distance. I had to circle. I set him up, allowed him to reach then. when he reached, I attacked. "


Tyson fakes a left jab to the right of Botha's head. Botha reacts by slipping to his left and walks into Tyson's short right hand.

 
Right. You don't train chambering every punch,
I don't know of any kata that does this unless they are repeating the same technique that requires it. If reverse punch gets a chambered fist at the waist then you do it for every reverse punch. In this case you aren't doing this for every type of punch . It's only being done for the reverse punch.

Students won't understand it until they get into the advance level which hopefully will encourage them to explore the movements more. Hopefully by the time the reach the advance level they are seeking out questions like how does it help me. What techniques use it and which don't and why.
 
I don't know of any kata that does this unless they are repeating the same technique that requires it. If reverse punch gets a chambered fist at the waist then you do it for every reverse punch. In this case you aren't doing this for every type of punch . It's only being done for the reverse punch.
Chambering every punch (empty hikite) to the waist...


Machida Academy not chambering punches...

 
It's not necessary to chamber your hand to your waist to generate power.
I don't know about this. This is outside my reasoning for doing it. I know how to drive power but when I speak of chambered hands it's always for the purpose of getting the fist ready to strike as soon as possible. I train a long fist system so my power generation is a little different and requires a different approach than linear punches.
 
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