The Hipocritcal Standard of Harassment

[Empty Hands]

And she reported me for Sexual harassment. Of course, when the regional manager heard the story they dropped the complaint against me. I find it an amusing story to tell now, but, yeah... I can maybe see a double standard there.

What double standard? A complaint was made, it was investigated, and then dismissed by your superior when all the facts came to light. What wouldn't be a double standard to you, if your regional manager had simply ignored the complaint? If any complaint is made by a woman it must be ignored? I'm really struggling to connect the claim and the facts here.

 

[granfire]

What double standard? A complaint was made, it was investigated, and then dismissed by your superior when all the facts came to light. What wouldn't be a double standard to you, if your regional manager had simply ignored the complaint? If any complaint is made by a woman it must be ignored? I'm really struggling to connect the claim and the facts here.

The woman was basically doing the harassing by oogling her male coworkers. I suppose the direct approach did not sit well with her? Or she got mad at being called on it?

 

[Tez3]

The woman was basically doing the harassing by oogling her male coworkers. I suppose the direct approach did not sit well with her? Or she got mad at being called on it?

Exactly and I think it proves too that the premise 'only men are pulled for sexual harrassment' is false, sexual harrassment is not just women complaining maliciously about men because they called them 'dear'.

 

[elder999]

Can sexual harassment charges be falsified? Sure. Are they? Suree. Are the standards low, and set against men?

Sure. Are there ways to avoid it? Absolutely.

Sucks that it feels like this is what's happened to you, 'Caver, but there are a couple of things that stick out.

If a female coworker, or, in my case, subordinate, asked me for a hug, I'd politely decline.

I don't touch anyone unless it's necessary for the job-as in keeping them from doing something dangerous, like removing their hands from controls.

If someone calls me "sugar," or "sweetheart," or anything like that,at work, I tell them that it's inappropriate, and immediately. Socially is another story-if we're at the bar, or some other event, I let it slide, but I don't reciprocate-ever.

I try not to be alone with women coworkers and subordinates for too long, except in the field when necessary.

As you can tell, I've danced this dance in my career before-been accused of sexual harassment or inappropriate behavior before, but I've never lost a job from it, or had it held against me later.

 

[granfire]

Exactly and I think it proves too that the premise 'only men are pulled for sexual harrassment' is false, sexual harrassment is not just women complaining maliciously about men because they called them 'dear'.

I never meant to say it does not happen. But it is certainly not assumed that women do it. It is basically a situation that has been set up to protect the female.

However, in this particular situation, the woman was the transgressor, but still filed against the man asking her about her actions.
Brass ones, if you ask me.


However, aside the real or assumed frequency of which Carver loses his job due to harassment charges, I think we have moved light years away from his original point: When 2 people do the same thing it's still not the same?

Which I think it an important point to ponder. If the situation was reversed, how would it play out? Not just in terms of sexual harassment, but in general.

 

[Empty Hands]

The woman was basically doing the harassing by oogling her male coworkers. I suppose the direct approach did not sit well with her? Or she got mad at being called on it?

Yes, she was, which means she has a double standard. No surprise, plenty of people are hypocritical dicks who can dish it out but don't want to take it, in all kinds of arenas. That doesn't mean that a general double standard exists. If one person was all it took, then a man who harasses but doesn't want to be harassed would be all it takes to establish a "double standard" in the opposite direction. Meaningless, in other words.

 

[elder999]

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Sucks that it feels like this is what's happened to you, 'Caver, but there are a couple of things that stick out.

And, to be fair, when 'Caver says he's "affectionate," we have to remember that 'Caver is deaf. Having several deaf relatives, dated a deaf woman, and taught at a school for the deaf in Santa Fe, I have to point out that the deaf community's predominant communication and socializations styles contain a fair amount of touching that might seem inappropriate to those unfamiliar with them.

Not an excuse, just a reason, and maybe something for you to look at, 'Caver.

I also should point out that "sexual harassment" is legally defined as "any unwelcome behavior that can be construed as sexual in nature that makes anyone uncomfortable." It's ridiculously broad-my own personal sexual harassment stories are great examples.

There was a secretary in my group that I was dating. She'd been in a car wreck, had a bad back, and enjoyed my occasionally rubbing her shoulders. One day she told me that I couldn't do it anymore. It made the other men in the group uncomfortable, you see, and they were going to file harassment charges against both of us if it persisted.

This was nearly 16 years ago.Since then, I don't touch anyone unless it's necessary for the job.

It was also one of my duties at one of the facilities that I ran to annually escort a security person and a contractor with a drug/explosive search dog through my facility. On one occasion, the contractor was a woman, who, like most dog handlers, was totally focused on her dog. In a welders area, we had to open one of several cabinets the welder kept fitting in-one of them had a Snap-On calendar in it (Snap-On tools used to give out calendars with bathing-suit clad "Snap-On" girls) The security guy asked me if I was going to take it down, "for the female," who hadn't even looked at it, and was focused on her dog. He took it down, and wrote me up for sexual harassment. It made him uncomfortable, you see.

I have another story, that's actually funny, but it's a little off-color, so I won't be telling it.......

Most recently, I had to fire a young lady for absenteeism-she promptly tried to accuse me of sexual harassment. We were having none of that, though.

 

[Empty Hands]

...I think we have moved light years away from his original point: When 2 people do the same thing it's still not the same?

Which I think it an important point to ponder. If the situation was reversed, how would it play out? Not just in terms of sexual harassment, but in general.

I am flabbergasted that members of a context driven, socially based species ask a question like this in all seriousness. Of course 2 people can do the same thing, and have it perceived differently. Context matters! We all know this. If my boss asks me to account for my time, and my subordinate does, the "same" action will be taken very differently. If my friend Steve who I work with wants to tell me about his marital issues, and so does the head of my department, the "same" action will be perceived very differently. If two men ask the same woman out, one is friendly and charming and never mentions it again when he is turned down, the other demanding and creepy and won't take "no" for an answer, the "same" action will be perceived differently.

None of us are children here, it's disingenuous to wonder why the "same" actions can have different outcomes depending on who is doing it.

 

[Tez3]

I think it is hard for some people to see physical contact however innocent between others, it could be the way they were brought up, their religious beliefs or perhaps it sparks off a memory of something bad, we can't know but I think rather than laugh/pour scorn on these people because they aren't the same as us we could actually be more thoughtful sometimes. Likewise with things like the 'girlie' calender, pics etc, I see plenty of them if we have to enter the male accomodation (officially and never alone I'll add) it doesn't bother me nor any of my female colleagues but it does bother some of the men, they are embarrassed by them. Again it may be upbringing, religion or perhaps older men with daughters, I don't really know but it's easier to respect them than make an issue out of it I've found. it's quite rare these days though to find people bothered by calenders, pics etc, I think we are all used to the Page Three girls and nudity on the television. The only time we really complain when they are real mingers!

 

[CanuckMA]

Am I glad that i never touch a female, other than my wife.

OTOH, I've been accused of being anti-social for refusing to shake the hand of a female colleague, or stepping back as a woman moves in for a hug.

Some days, you just can't win.

 

[granfire]

Am I glad that i never touch a female, other than my wife.

OTOH, I've been accused of being anti-social for refusing to shake the hand of a female colleague, or stepping back as a woman moves in for a hug.

Some days, you just can't win.

Most days actually.

 

[Tez3]

Am I glad that i never touch a female, other than my wife.

OTOH, I've been accused of being anti-social for refusing to shake the hand of a female colleague, or stepping back as a woman moves in for a hug.

Some days, you just can't win.

Obviously that's something I understand but because I often work with Gurkhas it's something they do as well. We use the traditional greeting of hands together with them, it's actually a very pleasant and uncomplicated way of greeting people. While very polite they are also very undemonstrative in public, we have no misunderstandings or ambiguities to worry about.

 

[Jenna]

Am I glad that i never touch a female, other than my wife.

OTOH, I've been accused of being anti-social for refusing to shake the hand of a female colleague, or stepping back as a woman moves in for a hug.

Some days, you just can't win.

By doing the above two things, I believe you have won and will consistently win. Whether she knows these things of you or not, by acting this way with such a consistent professional approach, you give a great respect to your wife. I think that is a wonderful thing.

If I had a penny for every married or long-term-partnered man that had doled out workplace banter in such a way that if I were his wife I would be cored and gutted, well I would be weighed down with pennies now. Although it is just idle foolishness and it is all in a lighthearted context, I think conversations, gestures or actions with sexual overtones or undertones do nothing but undermine trust in mixed workplaces. Anyway, maybe I am prudish. Sometimes I am glad I do not have the worry of being married and but to read your approach and imagine your integrity would change my mind

If all men (and women) took your transparent and consistent approach and respected that this is how it should be in a workplace then there would be far fewer false accusations and far fewer bona fide across-the-line indecent situations at all levels.

 

[Empty Hands]

By doing the above two things, I believe you have won and will consistently win. Whether she knows these things of you or not, by acting this way with such a consistent professional approach, you give a great respect to your wife. I think that is a wonderful thing.

Shaking hands is not a sexual gesture, and refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex does nothing to show your spouse respect. No more than refusing to make eye contact or be in the same room with the opposite sex would.

 

[Tez3]

Shaking hands is not a sexual gesture, and refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex does nothing to show your spouse respect. No more than refusing to make eye contact or be in the same room with the opposite sex would.

I'll let Canuck explain this one.


Going back to what Jenna said it may be a matter of honesty, I work with people, men and women who are very up front especially about sexual matters, however a lot of civilians don't get what they are about. On the basis that if you don't ask you don't get soldiers will often ask if you are up for a shag, say no, you'll get a grin and no hard feelings, say yes you'll probably get a good time, entirely up to you. Its honest, not subtle, not harrassing, it's just the way they are. If you say no, you won't get bothered, they'll make you a brew and get on with whatever needs getting on with. We do sometimes get civilian females who work on the camps thinking they are far more popular than they are, the truth is a squaddie will go with anything with a pulse, well, actually anything that's still warm. Does it show a lack of respect for women, not really, not by their lights. They are just honest. They don't touch you up, they tell jokes that would get a comedian who told them banned from ever performing again but they don't actually harrass you, the cases of harrassment we get are usually among the civilians who work for the MOD. Often it's a boss taking advantage of their position, sometimes it's literally a 'dirty old man'. Once we have a woman complain three weeks after she claimed she saw a security officer sat with his todger out when she came into work one morning, he said he was eating a sausage roll. No one else who came in at that time saw anything amiss, the case was dismissed through lack of evidence, the woman was honest in what she thought she saw, she wasn't being malicious, she's fretted about it for a long time, told her boss who then reported it.

 

[CanuckMA]

Shaking hands is not a sexual gesture, and refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex does nothing to show your spouse respect. No more than refusing to make eye contact or be in the same room with the opposite sex would.

It's actually respect for the woman. I also do not touch my wife while in public. It's part of a religious restriction.

A woman having her periods and for a while after is ritually impure. Not unclean, just a ritual state. The state is passed by contact. I will not make contact with a woman I do not know, so as not to touch a woman that is ritually impure. I also refrain to touch my wife in public because doing so or not would clue an observer as to her ritual state, information that does not need to be shared. I show respect to my wife by not broadcasting her state.

And before someone tries to pick on the issue of ritual impurity, or cleanliness as it is usually mistranslated, first, men are subject to that as well. And one of the bestt way to understand it is this:

You come home after a vacation an find a dead, decompose squirrel in your fridge. Throw away the food, clean the inside of the fridge with bleach. By all standards, the fridge is clean. Would you still use it? One is cleanliness, the other is a state.

 

[Jenna]

Shaking hands is not a sexual gesture, and refusing to shake hands with the opposite sex does nothing to show your spouse respect. No more than refusing to make eye contact or be in the same room with the opposite sex would.

I was referencing the refusal to hug. Apologies.

 

[Jenna]

On the basis that if you don't ask you don't get soldiers will often ask if you are up for a shag, say no, you'll get a grin and no hard feelings, say yes you'll probably get a good time, entirely up to you.

Wow, and I thought the environment I worked in was forthright in sexual matters!

I have to say, I would find that kind of openness uncomfortable Tez. I know it is (generally) meant in a lighthearted spirit and but Tez I would worry that this kind of acceptance of sexual propositioning could lead to indecent and/or criminal behaviours do you not think? In the situation you outline (and others likek it in other workplace environments) you are trusting relying on a guy taking your no for a no. I know military rely upon very tightly knit camaraderie and teamwork and but still I think relying upon a guy to stop when you say stop that is not a place I would want to be. Throw in a few beers and...

I know you are tough Tez. I just hope that you and other women in your unit keep aware and safe. My wishes to you, Jenna

 

[elder999]

Going back to what Jenna said it may be a matter of honesty, I work with people, men and women who are very up front especially about sexual matters, however a lot of civilians don't get what they are about. On the basis that if you don't ask you don't get soldiers will often ask if you are up for a shag, say no, you'll get a grin and no hard feelings, say yes you'll probably get a good time, entirely up to you. Its honest, not subtle, not harrassing, it's just the way they are. If you say no, you won't get bothered, they'll make you a brew and get on with whatever needs getting on with. We do sometimes get civilian females who work on the camps thinking they are far more popular than they are, the truth is a squaddie will go with anything with a pulse, well, actually anything that's still warm. Does it show a lack of respect for women, not really, not by their lights. They are just honest.

Realize that things are different here-if you ask someone at work on a "date," and they say "no," and you don't ask again, it's not harassment,.

If you keep asking, and they report it, it is.

If you ask them if they're "up for a shag," once, and they report it, it's harassment.

In any case, it's inappropriate.


Touch someone once, and if they report it, it might be harassment.. Do it after they've told you not to, even on the wrist or shoulder, and it's harassment.

they tell jokes that would get a comedian who told them banned from ever performing again but they don't actually harrass

This is inappropriate behavior-if someone tells you they don't want to hear it, and you do it again, it's actually harassment.

 

[Tez3]

Wow, and I thought the environment I worked in was forthright in sexual matters!

I have to say, I would find that kind of openness uncomfortable Tez. I know it is (generally) meant in a lighthearted spirit and but Tez I would worry that this kind of acceptance of sexual propositioning could lead to indecent and/or criminal behaviours do you not think? In the situation you outline (and others likek it in other workplace environments) you are trusting relying on a guy taking your no for a no. I know military rely upon very tightly knit camaraderie and teamwork and but still I think relying upon a guy to stop when you say stop that is not a place I would want to be. Throw in a few beers and...

I know you are tough Tez. I just hope that you and other women in your unit keep aware and safe. My wishes to you, Jenna

It's not sexual propostioning as such, it's just being honest, there's nothing false, nothing faked about them, you're chatting, you get on, do you want to shag, no, then that's fine. It leads to nothing else as I said. It doesn't lead to criminal and/or criminal behaviour because everything is in the open, it's not secret, it's not about being tough at all and don't think its the men who are the only ones doing this, it's equal ops in every sense, the female soldiers are no different. There's no pressure on anyone, to be honest it's no different from being offered something to eat or drink, if you don't want anything you say so and that's the end of it. When they are out drinking it's gernerally the lads that come off worst, we have a certain type of female that traps soldiers, they see their life style, their postings and the fact they get houses when they marry as being very attractive so they go all out to trap the lads into getting married. We also get girls who will travel a long way just to sleep with soldiers. considring how many men we have here I can't remember the last time we had an accusation of rape or even sexual harrassment, the lads even when drunk tend not to force anyone, they wouldn't not when there's so many girls laying it on plates for them anyway.

The jokes aren't innapropiate they just aren't understood by civvies for example a well known comedian here went to visit injured servicemen including amputees, they had t shirts on that said 'I survived a suicide bomber' and they told him 'amputee jokes' like the one on the thread here where a single amputation was known as a 'papercut'. They told him jokingly that Team GB would have a good team in the Para Olympics this year with all the amputees, he repeated this on one of his shows and there was an uproar among certain types. The public gets embarrassd by the injured, they want them to be silent heroes, all saintly instead of being what they always were. We had some amputees here who had come up for the Afghan medal ceremony, their mates took them out and they all got roaring drunk. there were having wheelcahir races in the road and shouting things like 'you can't catch me you haven't got a leg to stand on'/ People were saying that it was awful doing that, why?

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...sity-of-those-professing-outrage-1809954.html

Jenna, I think you are going to have to come up and meet the lads, they are nothing like what I think you imagine. With the soldiers trust is more than a word, you trust your very life to them, they trust each other implicitly, there are no secrets between them. I often find that civvies think soldiers are rough, tough, ignorant and you don't let your womenfolk near them, you probably shouldn't, not because they will ravage them but they will probably charm them into bed, no force needed, no force applied. Some may seduce your sons as well don't forget we have gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transexuals as well in the forces. All are accepted, the only criteria is how well you do your job.

I'm not in the least tough, I don't have to be, don't need to be, I've never felt with any troops ( apart from when the Kuwaitis were here training and they spat at the females...funnily enough they seemed very accident prone though, always bumping into doors and falling downstairs, must be the British rain) that I had to be on my guard or felt unsafe. The most danger I've ever been in was probably having an overdose of tea with an Irish regiment, the stereotype was true so much tea brewed and drunk! I can honestly tell any woman who wants to join the army that she's be fine, sexual harrassment is far less than civvie street, do your job and you'll be respected. Mess up you will be ragged, that's the same for men and women. Women are proving their worth in Afghan along side the men, doing an amazing job, the men know this and with their usual straight to the point attitude anyone who harrasses you will be thumped, though the likelihood is that the female will probably have thumped them anyway. Our squaddies aren't just guys, they are THE guys! :ultracool