The Hipocritcal Standard of Harassment

[Carol]

Worth reading the whole article; it makes it quite clear that you have to be sure that hugs are acceptable and welcome in the workplace.

Its also dancing around the fact that it is not considered professional behaviour.

There has been lots and lots and lots of material written about managing one's career. Harvard Business Review, Forbes, HR Journals, MSN Careers, countless others....I can't remember any that said hugging and touching in the workplace is a positive thing for one's career. Especially as jobs have gotten harder to come by. The Career Builder article talks about the physical benefits of a hug being stress relief and all that. Personally I think having the folks around you disciplined to focus on their job and excel at it is far better workplace stress relief than any of the touchy-feely stuff.

Yes, in some environments you may be able to get away with hugging, but IMO a far better career decision would be to choose excellence over mediocrity (or worse).

 

[jks9199]

Its also dancing around the fact that it is not considered professional behaviour.

There has been lots and lots and lots of material written about managing one's career. Harvard Business Review, Forbes, HR Journals, MSN Careers, countless others....I can't remember any that said hugging and touching in the workplace is a positive thing for one's career. Especially as jobs have gotten harder to come by. The Career Builder article talks about the physical benefits of a hug being stress relief and all that. Personally I think having the folks around you disciplined to focus on their job and excel at it is far better workplace stress relief than any of the touchy-feely stuff.

Yes, in some environments you may be able to get away with hugging, but IMO a far better career decision would be to choose excellence over mediocrity (or worse).

Sorry, time was short and I wanted to draw out that the article wasn't a ringing endorsement of hugging in the workplace. Personally, as a general rule, hugs are inappropriate in most workplaces, and unprofessional. Yes, there can indeed be times where a hug or comforting touch is simply the human gesture to make. But generally, that implies a relationship further than mere professional colleagues, as well. In the workplace, the safe answer is always to remain professional -- which generally means no hugging.

 

[granfire]

Wow, misogny at it's best. She's a woman therefore she's wrong, I'm a man I'm right. Caver you said yourself you have been told not to touch women more than once in different workplaces by different bosses so why is does that make her wrong?

Again, I am sure he does not hold this position in all aspects of life.
However, the cards are indeed stacked against the guy in terms of work place harassment (or even the further reaching criminal conduct).

At least here in the US.
In a lot of places - not all of them. And THAT has turned the umbrella of workplace sensibility into a deadly weapon.


And reading through the responses in regard of professionalism and hugging....it is a sad state of affairs when there is no more distinction between a transgression and a human interaction.

 

[Steve]

And reading through the responses in regard of professionalism and hugging....it is a sad state of affairs when there is no more distinction between a transgression and a human interaction.

Could you explain this statement to me? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I'm also interested to know how you define "human interaction" because I'm not sure I would agree.

While we're at it, can you outline a situation that would be considered routine (ie, doesn't involve tragedy) in which you think that hugging a coworker in a professional setting would be appropriate?

 

[MA-Caver]

I just hope you figure this out before it costs you another job.

Well, just like everyone else... I doubt it.

 

[Sukerkin]

Could you explain this statement to me? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Really?

While we're at it, can you outline a situation that would be considered routine (ie, doesn't involve tragedy) in which you think that hugging a coworker in a professional setting would be appropriate?

We wouldn't because she is German and I am English and there is a degree of Teutonic/Saxon reserve that we both grew up with; as to you American's tho', with all your Latin influences and flamboyant displays of emotion ...

 

[MA-Caver]

If it were a pair of guys... they'd probably be arrested.

 

[Steve]

Really?

Yeah. It seems self apparent to me that behavior that is welcoming and even comforting amongst close friends could also be clearly inappropriate with a co-worker, whether peer or subordinate.

We wouldn't because she is German and I am English and there is a degree of Teutonic/Saxon reserve that we both grew up with; as to you American's tho', with all your Latin influences and flamboyant displays of emotion ...

Haha. Well, remember, we're a melting pot. I'm a Norwegian/German, pretty much half and half with a smackering of some older, "American" mash up on my mom's side. So, we're pretty uncomfortable with public displays of affection and such.

My wife, on the other hand, is almost exclusively Irish. She's way more... flamboyant... than I am.

 

[Steve]

If it were a pair of guys... they'd probably be arrested.

If those two were at work, they'd probably be fired. That's the real key takeaway here.

 

[Tez3]

If those two were at work, they'd probably be fired. That's the real key takeaway here.

They are also giving implicit permission for hugging to take place.

There remains though that old adage that you can only be a victim if you allow yourself to be. To constantly see youself as a victim will do no good, to see yourself as being constantly persecuted will also do no good. There must be millions of men who work in America despite whatever PC type of environment there is who do not get sacked for sexual harrassment, there must be a good many male martial arts instructors who do not get banned so whatever is going on doesn't seem to affect the majority.

 

[Steve]

They are also giving implicit permission for hugging to take place.

There remains though that old adage that you can only be a victim if you allow yourself to be. To constantly see youself as a victim will do no good, to see yourself as being constantly persecuted will also do no good. There must be millions of men who work in America despite whatever PC type of environment there is who do not get sacked for sexual harrassment, there must be a good many male martial arts instructors who do not get banned so whatever is going on doesn't seem to affect the majority.

The only thing I'd like to clarify is that the issue here isn't political correctness. That's the smokescreen. The issue is one of simple respect and professionalism. That's the bottom line. People who are unable to figure it out call it PC in order to imply that it's not their issue.

We spend more waking time with our coworkers than with our families, in most cases. So, some people want it all. They want their workplace to be a giant family, where they can "let their guard down" and "be themselves." But, as with most things, you can't have it all.

 

[KELLYG]

I personally do not like people touching me period especially at work. I however would not hesitate to tell you that you crossed a line with me. Some females do not feel comfortable doing that and will go to managment instead. I do not need to be hugged and comforted or told every aspect of your life to get my work done. For the most part I am a private person and do not share a lot with people I work with. Don't get me wrong I do get along well with the people I work with and don't mind shooting the breeze from time to time. Work is work it is a place I go everyday to earn money. I think that your "friendly mannor" may be confusing to some. You don't have to be cold hearted but allow greater distance between yourself and the people that you work with. Don't get me wrong I know that some females will make a fuss just cause they can. I remember that there was a calender on the wall in the shop. It was a Men's calender, the women were in bathing suits in suggestive poses. It was not obsene in any way and was in a back area that is usually occupied only by the guys in the shop. Well a female "coworker" came in, for the first time in her 5 years of employment, saw it and then told managment that she was offended. It was removed immediately. Now this calender was on the wall and the only thing that changed in years, decades even, was the yearly change. The female that was offended, it came down.

 

[Sukerkin]

:nods: That last story indeed shows an over-sensitivity and a sense of entitlement that we would not normally tolerate in others. A similar thing was in the news today where ONE woman complained to a bus company because the driver called her "babe" or somesuch and now there is official policy that the drivers should not use familiar terms to their passengers - it's a load of ... well, you can imagine what it is a load of.

Here's the article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16808941

 

[ballen0351]

:nods: That last story indeed shows an over-sensitivity and a sense of entitlement that we would not normally tolerate in others. A similar thing was in the news today where ONE woman complained to a bus company because the driver called her "babe" or somesuch and now there is official policy that the drivers should not use familiar terms to their passengers - it's a load of ... well, you can imagine what it is a load of.

Here's the article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16808941

I think sometimes the problem is people looking for an excuse to file complaints and file lawsuits. They try to go out of their way to play the victim card.

 

[Empty Hands]

There must be millions of men who work in America despite whatever PC type of environment there is who do not get sacked for sexual harrassment....

For real. Not only have I never been fired or even talked to for harassment, i've never even seen it happen to anyone else. In one case I can think of, the man should have gotten a talking-to, and never did. And I have worked for or been a student in 6 universities or research institutes over the past 15 years, and 4 service jobs in the previous years as well. All of this, in liberal institutions in liberal states, the epicenter of "political correctness". Really, this stuff isn't that hard to figure out, which makes this thread more than a little mystifying. I guess it explains how harassment does happen.

 

[Steve]

For real. Not only have I never been fired or even talked to for harassment, i've never even seen it happen to anyone else. In one case I can think of, the man should have gotten a talking-to, and never did. And I have worked for or been a student in 6 universities or research institutes over the past 15 years, and 4 service jobs in the previous years as well. All of this, in liberal institutions in liberal states, the epicenter of "political correctness". Really, this stuff isn't that hard to figure out, which makes this thread more than a little mystifying. I guess it explains how harassment does happen.

While I've never been talked to about any kind of harassment issue, I've had to have three conversations. One was with my (at the time) direct supervisor regarding his treatment of one of my employees. But, to be clear, there was never any real issue because I acted as soon as I saw it, BEFORE it was any kind of a problem.

As EH says, it's not that hard to figure out.

 

[Brian King]

Interesting topic MA-Caver. Why we post what we do is not always obvious to us or to others at that moment, but everything happens for a reason. I applaud your courage in posting honestly in what you would know would be a controversial thread and a subject that is both personal and painful to you.

A really profitable tool in gauging where a person is in their life journey and where they are going is for a person to take a honest look and assessment of their past. Just reminiscing is not what I am taking about. What I am talking about is looking for and seeing patterns, look for both positive and negative patterns. Patterns in how we deal with conflicts, patterns in how we deal with challenges, patterns in how we deal with relationships. Once patterns are recognized an honest assessment should be made. Is the pattern working and leading to positive actions?


MA-Caver wrote;

“Yeah sure... define professionalism.. because I haven't seen it with ANY company that I worked for. And there has been a lot of companies of various types that I've signed paychecks from.”

We cannot worry about what others are doing or not doing. I find it hard to believe that no-one at the many companies that you have worked at modeled professional conduct. Be that as it may be, if others are not being professional is no excuse for unprofessional behavior on our own part. If no one else is professional, great. That will make the professional stand out all that much more, it might allow a person to make a much greater impact when they stand out professionally. Seeking betterment is always worthwhile even if often painful.


Back to the the original topic of the thread as I am reading it or into it. Caver seems to be upset that women are getting away with behavior that he and others suffered negative consequences for, even just the accusation of such a type of behavior can bring negative consequences. It’s true but so what? Life is not fair and the sooner people get over the naivety of thinking that it is supposed to be fair the better. Things do not easily change but we can change if we truly desire to. We cannot easily control how others act and behave towards us but we can control how their behavior and actions effect us. A big step is to find someone willing to be a mentor. Find a professional and model that behavior you admire. Start from where at and move onward.


Regards
Brian King

 

[Carol]

Well, since we're talking stats....I have been working nearly 20 years in an environment that is 90% male. Telecom engineering simply doesn't attract a lot of women.

I would not put up with sexual harrasment, inappropriate touching, or any of the sort in the workplace.

I haven't had to. Never had to deal with inappropriate touching or language at the work place. Never dealt with inappropriate touching. Never filed any sort of complaint of the sort. I haven't had to. I believe very strongly that the more respect you show your colleagues, the more respect is returned to you.

Personally I have been part of one potential harrasment investigation. It involved an off-color greeting card sent anonymously to the complainants work e-mail. The card was sent from some hotmail account outside the company. The complainant was my report. I talked to HR who asked if I could figure out who the sender was. I ran some magic network traces, determined the sender was another employee -- also my report. Oh joy. I asked the sender about the card, the sender admitted sending it. 0000The story -- the two people were long-time buddies outside of work. The sender sent the card using a hotmail account that they primarily use for spam. The complainant didn't recognize the address the address. When the complainant found out who the sender was, the complainant insisted on withdrawing the complaint, stating they never would have complained had they known who the card was from.

I relayed this to HR, my director and I agreed that this was not a harassment issue. I brought the sender in to my office for a butt-kicking lecture about web surfing on company time. Sender was immediately contrite and admitted they did something stupid.

Both got back to work....and they continued to do a fine job for the entire time I was their manager. Not everything is a horror story.

 

[Tez3]

:nods: That last story indeed shows an over-sensitivity and a sense of entitlement that we would not normally tolerate in others. A similar thing was in the news today where ONE woman complained to a bus company because the driver called her "babe" or somesuch and now there is official policy that the drivers should not use familiar terms to their passengers - it's a load of ... well, you can imagine what it is a load of.

Here's the article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16808941

I think there's two things here, the first is that this happens rarely, so rare in fact that they made it a news item. The second is something we have people complaining about here... that when you see the word 'babe' or as you say something similiar in writing it sounds innocuous enough but what we can't tell is the way it was said, the context it was said in and the expression of the driver as he said it. It could have been something or nothing. I'd hold my judgement on it until I heard all the story. My instructor does the doors in Newcastle and he can make 'darlin' sound like a terrible insult and even a bit threatening.

 

[Cryozombie]

I was investigated for Sexual Harassment once. When I was a Retail manager, one of my Employees complained to me that my Assistant manager was creeping him out... hovering around, always asking what he was doing after work, etc... So I asked her what was up with that. She said "nothing" and I asked if she wanted to go out with him or what the story was. She said "No I don't want to go out with him, I just want to F*** him." So... I told her she was creeping him out and she should chill. She did.

Fast forward about 2-3 months... the behavior started again, with a different employee, who also complained... this time I was direct... I said "Ok, so now what is with you and Johnny? Do you want to F*** him?"

And she reported me for Sexual harassment. Of course, when the regional manager heard the story they dropped the complaint against me. I find it an amusing story to tell now, but, yeah... I can maybe see a double standard there.