The far right in Europe is really the far left...

[Tez3]

I just died a little inside. OK, a lot. I'm going to go to my room and cry over my wasted life.

No, the point of them is to gain good jobs.!
http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2005/10/purpose-of-phd.html

Josh, you don't understand what is going on, I'm sorry but that is it, you wanted to discuss something we have rehashed and done to death, I had already said I wasn't going to go over that all again but you persisted in lecturing. Find one of the many, many threads here on the subject and try to resusitate it.

 

[Tez3]

So are you saying this history guy you keep throwing out as a source didn't really earn his PH.D.? Besides, the guys I list have long work histories and have distinguished themselves in their respective fields. You can disagree, that is the nature of pursuing knowledge, but these guys aren't fly by night guys either.

Please, do me a favour and go on a reading comprehension course. Read what one of the oldest, most respected universities in the world says about the purpose of a PhD and what it's for.

 

[billc]

Hmm...Sukerkin, I like the qualifications that you put on the way I can support my thoughts on socialism. It would be as if you challenged me to a duel, and you picked the time, the place and the weapons. When I arrived, the sword would be the one of your choosing, which would be too short, too heavy and has the words, "Souvenier: Made in China," on the length of the blade. Of course I would notice that your blade was made by a famous Japanese sword smith with a reputation for swords that cut Sun Beams. My second would be your younger brother, the officials would be your two older brothers, and the audience watching the duel would be composed of your close friends and family. My supporters, also chosen by you would be Tez and empty hands. Even with that I will start re-posting my sources as I have time. As a down payment:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/PERSONAL.HTM

RUDOLPH J. RUMMEL, b, 1932, BA and MA from the University of Hawaii (1959,
1961); Ph.D. in Political Science (Northwestern University, 1963); Phi Beta
Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi, Omicron Delta Kappa. Taught at Indiana University (1963),
Yale (1964-66), University of Hawaii (1966-1995); now Professor Emeritus of
Political Science, University of Hawaii. Received numerous grants from NSF,
ARPA, and the United States Peace Research Institute. Frequently nominated for
the Nobel Peace Prize (see here). Received the
Susan Strange Award of the International Studies Association for having
intellectually most challenged the field in 1999; the Lifetime Achievement Award
2003 from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science
Association; and the 2007 The International Association of Genocide Scholars'
Award for Distinguished Lifetime Contribution to the Field of Genocide and
Democide Studies and Prevention.

http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/hitler-was-a-socialist/

Mussolini’s fascism was a state socialism that was explicitly anti-Marx and aggressively nationalistic. Hitler’s National Socialism was state socialism at its worse. It not only shared the socialism of fascism, but was explicitly racist. In this it differs from the state socialism of Burma today, and that of some African and Arab dictatorships.
Two prevailing historical myths that the left has propagated successfully is that Hitler was a far right wing conservative and was democratically elected in 1933 (a blow at bourgeois democracy and conservatives). Actually, he was defeated twice in the national elections (he became chancellor in a smoke-filled-room appointment by those German politicians who thought they could control him — see “What? Hitler Was Not Elected?”) and as head of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, he considered himself a socialist, and was one by the evidence of his writings and the his economic policies.
To be clear, National Socialism differs from Marxism in its nationalism, emphasis on folk history and culture, idolization of the leader, and its racism. But the Nazi and Marxist-Leninists shared a faith in government, an absolute ruler, totalitarian control over all significant economic and social matters for the good of the working man, concentration camps, and genocide/democide as an effective government policy (only in his last years did Stalin plan for his own Holocaust of the Jews).

Not exactly Ann Coulter is he?

 

[billc]

Next, here is a documentary on the Soviets. At 2:50 on the video they go into the nazis and their simularity to the communists. Is Dr. Goebels enough of a source?

 

[Tez3]

RUDOLPH J. RUMMEL, b, 1932, BA and MA from the University of Hawaii (1959,
1961); Ph.D. in Political Science (Northwestern University, 1963); Phi Beta
Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi, Omicron Delta Kappa. And this means?



Taught at Indiana University (1963), Yale (1964-66), University of Hawaii (1966-1995); What subjects?


now Professor Emeritus of
Political Science, University of Hawaii.

Received numerous grants from NSF,
ARPA, and the United States Peace Research Institute. Who are they?
Frequently nominated for
the Nobel Peace Prize (see here). didn't win though

Received the
Susan Strange Award of the International Studies Association for having
intellectually most challenged the field in 1999; the Lifetime Achievement Award
2003 from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science
Association; and the 2007 The International Association of Genocide Scholars'
Award for Distinguished Lifetime Contribution to the Field of Genocide and
Democide Studies and Prevention. this means little outside America, it doesn't tell us anything.


I think you should bear in mind, and I take the liberty of speaking for Sukerkin here as well as myself, that we are martial artists who if we were to challenge you, act as seconds etc etc would act in an honourable, correct way and to the best of our ability in whatever role we were assigned. To say that we would act unfairly is insulting.

 

[billc]

Next:

George Gerald Reisman (born January 13, 1937)[SUP][1][/SUP] is Professor Emeritus of Economics at Pepperdine University and author of Capitalism: A Treatise on Economics (1996).[SUP][2][/SUP] He is also the author of an earlier book, The Government Against the Economy (1979), which was praised by F.A. Hayek and Henry Hazlitt, the contents of which are mostly subsumed in his lengthy treatise, Capitalism.
In Capitalism, Reisman seeks to achieve a synthesis of the British Classical and Austrian Schools of Economics, uniting the doctrines of Adam Smith, David Ricardo, James Mill, and John Stuart Mill with those of Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk, and Ludwig von Mises.
Reisman was born in New York City[SUP][1][/SUP] and earned his Ph.D. from New York University under the direction of Ludwig von Mises, whose methodological work The Epistemological Problems of Economics Reisman translated from the German original into English. He is an outspoken advocate of free market or laissez-faire capitalism.
In the 1980s, with his wife, Edith Packer, J.D., Ph.D., he organized The Thomas Jefferson School of Philosophy, Economics, and Psychology, which held several conferences and seminars. Its lecturers included Leonard Peikoff, Edward Teller, Petr Beckmann, Hans Sennholz, Bernard Siegan, Anne Wortham, Robert Hessen, Allan Gotthelf, David Kelley, John Ridpath, Harry Binswanger, Edwin A. Locke, Walter E. Williams, Mary Ann Sures, Andrew Bernstein and Peter Schwartz. Attendees of these conferences include later Objectivist writers Tara Smith and Lindsay Perigo.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Reisman was a student of Ayn Rand, whose influence on his thought and work is at least as great as that of his mentor Mises. He identifies himself as an Objectivist, though he is no longer affiliated with the Ayn Rand Institute due to a falling out with some of its senior members, particularly Harry Binswanger and Peter Schwartz

http://mises.org/daily/1937

Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is TotalitarianMises Daily:Friday, November 11, 2005 by George Reisman

My purpose today is to make just two main points: (1) To show why Nazi Germany was a socialist state, not a capitalist one. And (2) to show why socialism, understood as an economic system based on government ownership of the means of production, positively requires a totalitarian dictatorship.
The identification of Nazi Germany as a socialist state was one of the many great contributions of Ludwig von Mises.

 

[billc]

Perhaps Sukerkin could put fewer qualifiers on my responses then, rather than dismissing sources simply because he disagrees with them. The point to my posting my sources is to show that there are people, with a great deal of education and knowledge in subjects that deal with socialism and leftism, who believe that the national socialists of germany and the the fascists of Italy were in fact socialists.

 

[billc]

Next:

Friedrich Augustus Hayek: (Also not Ann Coulter)

He is considered to be one of the most important economists and political philosophers of the twentieth century, winning the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 1974. Along with his mentor Ludwig von Mises, he was an important contributor to the Austrian school of political economy.[SUP][1][/SUP] Hayek's account of how changing prices communicate information which enable individuals to coordinate their plans is widely regarded as an important achievement in economics.[SUP][2][/SUP] Hayek also produced significant work in the fields of systems thinking, jurisprudence, neuroscience and the history of ideas.

At the University of Vienna, he earned doctorates in law and political science in 1921 and 1923 respectively, and he also studied philosophy, psychology, and economics. For a short time, when the University of Vienna closed, Hayek studied in Constantin von Monakow's Institute of Brain Anatomy, where Hayek spent much of his time staining brain cells. Hayek's time in Monakow's lab, and his deep interest in the work of Ernst Mach, inspired Hayek's first intellectual project, eventually published as The Sensory Order (1952). It located connective learning at the physical and neurological levels, rejecting the "sense data" associationism[SUP][clarification needed][/SUP] of the empiricists and logical positivists. Hayek presented his work to the private seminar he had created with Herbert Furth called the Geistkreis.[SUP][11][/SUP]
During his years at the U. of Vienna Carl Menger's work on the explanatory strategy of social science and Friedrich von Wieser's commanding presence in the classroom left a lasting influence on Hayek.[SUP][12][/SUP] Upon the completion of his University exams, Hayek was hired by Ludwig von Mises on the recommendation of Wieser as a specialist for the Austrian government working on the legal and economic details of the Treaty of Saint Germain.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] Between 1923 and 1924 Hayek worked as a research assistant to Prof. Jeremiah Jenks of New York University, compiling macroeconomic data on the American economy and the operations of the U.S. Federal Reserve.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]

http://www.brookesnews.com/091910hayeknazis.html

[h=2]Nazism is Socialism*
[/h]

Friedrich August
von Hayek
BrookesNews.Com
Monday 19 October 2009

Published in the spring of 1933

The persecution of the Marxists, and
of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National
"Socialism" is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final
fruit of the anti-liberal tendencies which have been steadily gaining ground in
Germany since the later part of the Bismarckian era, and which led the majority
of the German intelligentsia first to "socialism of the chair" and later to
Marxism in its social-democratic or communist form.
One of the main reasons why the
socialist character of National Socialism has been quite generally unrecognized,
is, no doubt, its alliance with the nationalist groups which represent the great
industries and the great landowners. But this merely proves that these groups
too, as they have since learnt to their bitter disappointment, have, at least
partly, been mistaken as to the nature of the movement. But only partly
because, and this is the most characteristic feature of modern Germany, many
capitalists are themselves strongly influenced by socialistic ideas, and have
not sufficient belief in capitalism to defend it with a clear conscience.

The neat thing about Hayek is that he was alive at the time the German National Socialists were coming to power, something you think is an important feature Tez.

 

[billc]

Next:
A slight departure in that this Ph.D. is not an economist or political scientist but he does some really nice work in the area of socialism and right-left issues.

My full name is Dr. John Joseph RAY (JR for short). I was born of Australian
pioneer stock in 1943 at Innisfail in the State of Queensland in Australia. I
was, in other words, born in the Tropics, like my parents and all of my
grandparents before me. After an early education at Innisfail State Rural School
and Cairns State High School, I taught myself for matriculation. I took my B.A.
in Psychology from the University of Queensland in Brisbane. I then moved to
Sydney (in New South Wales, Australia) and took my M.A. in psychology from the
University of Sydney in 1969 and my Ph.D. in Behavioural Sciences from Macquarie
University in 1974.

http://knol.google.com/k/hitler-was-a-socialist#

HITLER WAS A SOCIALIST



John J. Ray (M.A.; Ph.D

So let that be an introduction to the idea that Hitler not only called himself a
socialist but that he WAS in fact a socialist by the standards of his day. Ideas
that are now condemned as Rightist were in Hitler's day perfectly normal ideas
among Leftists. And if Friedrich Engels was not a Leftist, I do not know who
would be.

But the most spectacular aspect of Nazism was surely its
antisemitism. And that had a grounding in Marx himself. The following
passage is from Marx but it could just as well have been from Hitler:

 

[Tez3]

Are you sure you are citing Hayek in support of what you believe?
http://www.liberal-vision.org/liber...ust-hayek-1899-1992-the-road-to-serfdom-1944/

 

[billc]

From your article Tez:

National Socialism in Germany after 1933 intensified that process, destroying all individual rights in Germany.

 

[billc]

Next:

Thomas Sowell:

Thomas Sowell (born June 30, 1930) is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author. A National Humanities Medal winner, he advocates laissez-faire economics and writes from a libertarian perspective. He is currently a Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University


graduating magna cum laude from Harvard University (1958), Thomas Sowell went on to receive his master's in economics from Columbia University (1959) and a doctorate in economics from the University of Chicago (1968).
In the early '60s, Sowell held jobs as an economist with the Department of Labor and AT&T. But his real interest was in teaching and scholarship. In 1965, at Cornell University, Sowell began the first of many professorships. Thomas Sowell's other teaching assignments include Rutgers University, Amherst College, Brandeis University and the University of California at Los Angeles, where he taught in the early '70s and also from 1984 to 1989.
Thomas Sowell has published a large volume of writing. His dozen books, as well as numerous articles and essays, cover a wide range of topics, from classic economic theory to judicial activism, from civil rights to choosing the right college. Moreover, much of his writing is considered ground-breaking -- work that will outlive the great majority of scholarship done today.
Though Thomas Sowell had been a regular contributor to newspapers in the late '70s and early '80s, he did not begin his career as a newspaper columnist until 1984. George F. Will's writing, says Sowell, proved to him that someone could say something of substance in so short a space (750 words). And besides, writing for the general public enables him to address the heart of issues without the smoke and mirrors that so often accompany academic writing.
In 1990, he won the prestigious Francis Boyer Award, presented by The American Enterprise Institute. Currently Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute in Stanford, Calif.
... read less

If you want to see his views, unfortunately you will have to read his chapters in "Intellectuals and Society,":

http://www.amazon.com/Intellectuals...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318370288&sr=1-1

[h=1]Intellectuals and Society [Hardcover][/h]Thomas Sowell




Thomas Sowell (Author)

› Visit Amazon's
Thomas Sowell Page

Find all the books, read about the
author, and more.

See search
results for this author

Are you an author? Learn
about Author Central

(Author)

My copy is on my kindle.

 

[billc]

Have to go for now...

 

[Tez3]

From your article Tez:

??? and that means what?

Ah of course, that means they can't possibly be right wing because they are goody goodies aren't they, they'd never destroy individual rights would they.


Tez walks slowly and carefully away from this thread as a sense of unreality sets in. The kettle boils and she makes a pot of tea. Taking her cup and saucer through to the sitting room, she sinks gratefully into the big leather armchair. She shakes her head sadly, there's none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Sukerkin]

Hmm...Sukerkin, I like the qualifications that you put on the way I can support my thoughts on socialism.

I didn't mean it that way, BillC, I was just after winnowing out the non-reputable sources so as not to waste our combined time. I was also giving you the opportunity to do so off the record as I said I really am not going to get publicly involved in this nonsense but I am interested in why you think in the fashion that you do.

I do like to play an even hand when I can and won't disdain good argument or dismiss things out of hand just because they don't fit some inviolable world-picture; I am proud of the fact that John considers me 'good people' and would sit down and drink with me even if I am a wishy-washy Liberal almost directly because of that attitude - the only time my responses harden is when ideology control peoples brains rather than reason (or if they don't have a good reason why they let ideology control them).

 

[Tez3]

Next:

Friedrich Augustus Hayek: (Also not Ann Coulter)




http://www.brookesnews.com/091910hayeknazis.html





The neat thing about Hayek is that he was alive at the time the German National Socialists were coming to power, something you think is an important feature Tez.

No I don't. He's also a liberal or didn't you notice? doesn't say the Nazis are socialists though.

 

[billc]

Did you read this:

The persecution of the Marxists, and
of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National
"Socialism" is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final
fruit of the anti-liberal tendencies which have been steadily gaining ground in
Germany since the later part of the Bismarckian era, and which led the majority
of the German intelligentsia first to "socialism of the chair" and later to
Marxism in its social-democratic or communist form.

From the article I cited by Hayek.

 

[billc]

Tez,

 

[Tez3]

Stop insulting other peoples intelligence. Basing your opinions on cherry picking phrases from people you think are right wing doesn't mean you are correct. Insulting people is the last resort of a person who knows he hasn't the wherewithal to make a reasoned argument ...on his own.

 

[Blade96]

Actually, I never use Ann Coulter to argue that the nazis and fascists were a type of socialism. I'm sure Ann would agree, but I use Ph.D.s in economics and political science to support my argument.

Don't fool yerself into thinking just because they got a phd means they must be right. Remember Shirley Phelps-Roper also has a dree and is a lawyer. But what do you think of her??