The Existance of Chi

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I think there are those saying Chi does not exist.

Claiming that chi might or might not exist is different from saying that something doesn't exist.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Thats not neccesarily true. Does sound exist? How about light? We cannot control them. We can contain them, or create them, or even use them to do work, but we can't control it. What about energy? It exists, yet we cant control it.

We have developed a greater ability to control all of the phenomenon you mentioned above because of our ability to describe them in detail. This is the basis behind the science of physics. Yet, why do we not read about chi in a physics book? This is the difference between chi and other phenomenon normally studied with science.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Chi is able to be sensed, counted, measured, and even controled. I'm not sure of your point.

People claim to sense chi. They claim to be able to control it. They claim to be able to describe it. An accupuncture text is very detailed in this respect. I refuse to believe that we cannot understand this using science, though. In fact, I think that coupling our current understanding of chi with scientific knowledge of the subject will only benifit us in the end. So, if you have any sources that show how chi can be quantified and expressed scientifically, I would greatly appreciate it if you would post them for all of us to see.

Upnorthkyosa

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Claiming that chi might or might not exist is different from saying that something doesn't exist.

I don't think that is what was said. Lets rule it out. If I asked,
Is there anyone here who would be brave enough to post that they do not believe that chi exists? I think we would see quite a few posts, dont you?

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
We have developed a greater ability to control all of the phenomenon you mentioned above because of our ability to describe them in detail. This is the basis behind the science of physics. Yet, why do we not read about chi in a physics book? This is the difference between chi and other phenomenon normally studied with science.

I think our ability to describe any of the above phenomonon is not quite what you think it is. Also, I do read about chi in printed material. I think you are only trying to see chi accepted by physics, when its biological in nature. You have to accept other sources as well. In every biological text I have read, I see material about chi. Your expecting something unreal. Chi is a combination of many biological elements, not something that stands on its own. You dont read about air in chemistry, but you read about the components of air, Nitrogen, Oxygen, ect.

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
People claim to sense chi. They claim to be able to control it. They claim to be able to describe it. An accupuncture text is very detailed in this respect. I refuse to believe that we cannot understand this using science, though. In fact, I think that coupling our current understanding of chi with scientific knowledge of the subject will only benifit us in the end. So, if you have any sources that show how chi can be quantified and expressed scientifically, I would greatly appreciate it if you would post them for all of us to see.

In order to change that statement from "people" claim to sense it, I suggest meeting with a skilled taiji practitioner who understand how to generate chi in theire hits, and let them hit you. You might then understand and be able to claim you sensed it as well. I agree that we can understand it using science, but not as long as people refuse to accept any type of scientific data which points towards the existence of chi. I think the problem is the refusal to accept any source which points to chi. The power in a hit or kick, the ability to practice chi gung and control disease. No one will accept that chi had anything to do with this. It is yet still unexplainable without the presentation of chi, but that doesn't seem to be a problem, they just refuse to accept that chi had anything to do with it. With this mentality, it will be very hard to study chi scientifically.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I don't think that is what was said. Lets rule it out. If I asked,
Is there anyone here who would be brave enough to post that they do not believe that chi exists? I think we would see quite a few posts, dont you?

Yes, anyone want to make that claim?

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I think our ability to describe any of the above phenomonon is not quite what you think it is. Also, I do read about chi in printed material. I think you are only trying to see chi accepted by physics, when its biological in nature.

Biology is physics based. The forces that run through our bodies obey the laws of physics. Chi should also obey the laws of physics unless it is truly something new that we don't understand. Here is an interesting thought that just popped in...scientists cannot explain the expanion of the universe without invoking a quantity of "dark energy." Since chi is in everything, perhaps "that" is the "dark energy." Pure psuedoscience and conjecture, I know, yet interesting to ponder. It's too bad I can think of no way to test this...

Originally posted by 7starmantis
You have to accept other sources as well. In every biological text I have read, I see material about chi. Your expecting something unreal. Chi is a combination of many biological elements, not something that stands on its own. You dont read about air in chemistry, but you read about the components of air, Nitrogen, Oxygen, ect.

Any sources that you can provide other then accupuncture texts would be greatly appreciated. I have heard that chi has been studied in the medical field, yet I can find nothing beyond peoples stories that it has been studied. I would like something more.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
In order to change that statement from "people" claim to sense it, I suggest meeting with a skilled taiji practitioner who understand how to generate chi in theire hits, and let them hit you. You might then understand and be able to claim you sensed it as well.

I have gone through a few really bad tai chi instructors who had nothing but charlatenry to show. My current instructor is of direct liniage to Chen Men Ching and I have been thrown across the room I have experienced something during correctly performed chigung. I am reluctant to call this chi because I can think of other biological means that could have caused what I felt. My instructor says "whether or not you call it chi matters little. Chi is."

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I agree that we can understand it using science, but not as long as people refuse to accept any type of scientific data which points towards the existence of chi. I think the problem is the refusal to accept any source which points to chi. The power in a hit or kick, the ability to practice chi gung and control disease. No one will accept that chi had anything to do with this. It is yet still unexplainable without the presentation of chi, but that doesn't seem to be a problem, they just refuse to accept that chi had anything to do with it. With this mentality, it will be very hard to study chi scientifically.

I think there are a lot of open minded scientists who are willing to look at data. I have heard stories that chi has been studied scientifically and am looking for confirmation of this.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Biology is physics based. The forces that run through our bodies obey the laws of physics. Chi should also obey the laws of physics unless it is truly something new that we don't understand. Here is an interesting thought that just popped in...scientists cannot explain the expanion of the universe without invoking a quantity of "dark energy." Since chi is in everything, perhaps "that" is the "dark energy." Pure psuedoscience and conjecture, I know, yet interesting to ponder. It's too bad I can think of no way to test this...

If Biology is Physics based then I would also say that Physics is Chemistry Based, and Chemistry is Biology based, and I would offer that it goes in both directions, to truly understand the concepts. I also would say that you cannot understand any of it with out Mathematics, even to make a logical statement.

So, if it fails to be described by Newtonian Physics it does not exist? Wait, we have Einsteinian and Nuclear Physics, which discusses atomic and sub-atomic particles and where the "Law of Cnservation of Mass" fails as some mass is converted into Energy

In places where the human mind has developed a concept it can explain and reproduce, it has a hard time believing in the existance of an idea. Yet, some dreamers used science an physics to determine that Pluto was actually out there. The existance of new elements, just from previous understandings.

So, when there is something we do not understand, yet can repeat, we like to come up with or derive new explanations to better understand. Even if you cannot repeat it, you can describe the theroy in some form of description, some form of mathematical description.

A long time ago the world was flat and everyone knew it. The Sun revolved around the Earth, and everyone knew it. As time progressed and understanding and more data collected, these ideas were laid aside as incorrect expressions of phenomanons we were trying to describe.

Just some ramblings, no real point other than, there might be an explanation in the future or we might not see one.

 

[Cruentus]

The question remains: Who here believes that CHI does NOT exist?

 

[Ninway J]

*looks around*

*hears crickets chirping*

 

[chbaehr]

Well, I for one do not believe CHI exists.

I believe that "CHI" is used to describe many things, from generating force in a punch or block to delivering pain relief in Accupucture. I believe that SOMETHING is happening, but that it all can be attributed to a single "life-force" called CHI is a bit of a stretch.

I am willing to accept a spiritual explanation regarding CHI, but the people explaining CHI to me ultimatly cause it to have a component in the physical world; it can throw someone across a room, it can break the 7th brick from the top in a stack of 10 bricks without damaging the other bricks, it can alleviate pain, etc.

Once the claim is made that CHI can have a physical effect on something, then it follows that we should be able to measure it, and be able to use scientific methods to study it.

When believers in "CHI" are asked about scientific study of "CHI", more times than not the reply is a story supporting the "CHI" cause, not actual scientific study.

I believe that we are entitled to a more concrete, detailed explanation regarding "CHI" than simply 'It exists, shut up and pratice", and the person making the claims should be the one supplying the answer.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by chbaehr
Well, I for one do not believe CHI exists.

I believe that "CHI" is used to describe many things, from generating force in a punch or block to delivering pain relief in Accupucture. I believe that SOMETHING is happening, but that it all can be attributed to a single "life-force" called CHI is a bit of a stretch.

I am willing to accept a spiritual explanation regarding CHI, but the people explaining CHI to me ultimatly cause it to have a component in the physical world; it can throw someone across a room, it can break the 7th brick from the top in a stack of 10 bricks without damaging the other bricks, it can alleviate pain, etc.

Once the claim is made that CHI can have a physical effect on something, then it follows that we should be able to measure it, and be able to use scientific methods to study it.

When believers in "CHI" are asked about scientific study of "CHI", more times than not the reply is a story supporting the "CHI" cause, not actual scientific study.

I believe that we are entitled to a more concrete, detailed explanation regarding "CHI" than simply 'It exists, shut up and pratice", and the person making the claims should be the one supplying the answer.

I think that we might agree, but that we might use different ways of explaining?

Let me see if I understand: You don't believe that Chi exists as a single "life force". You believe that many people attribute different things to "chi," such as simple physics or leverage, that could have alternative "real world" explainations. You do agree that there is a measurable energy at work in something like Acupuncture (even if we are unable to measure it yet), but you don't attribute it to a mystical "life force."

If the above is what you are saying, then I agree. I explain it differently, though (almost oppositely) in that I say that I DO believe in "Chi" because that seems to be the energy that drives eastern medicine. Yet, I don't believe that its a singular, "ultimate and Mystical" force that some people describe. I do believe that if it can affect the physical matter around us, then it is measurable (even if we haven't figured out how to measure it yet). I also agree that many people attribute certian "feats" to Chi, when there could be many alternative explainations.

So, even though I say that I believe that Chi exists, it would seem as if we agree. Am I wrong?

PAUL

 

[wingchunner]

Hello:

As an instructor, I have been asked many times what chi is. I've heard it simply explained that it is the air we breathe in to some mystical force.

I don't think that it is anything mystical.

I believe it is more than an electrical energy, more than part of the body's magnetic field, more than breathe, more than just the physics of a persons body, more than a persons intent, spirit or energy, more than tension or relaxing a muscle or groups of muscles, and more than the blood flowing to or away from a certain area. I believe it is aspects of each of these... at times more in one area than others depending on the situation, or even the technique or position in practice.

I believe the term chi has been overused by some to sound like someone knows what they're talking about when they don't, or they don't have any other way of explaining what is going on.

I can feel my chi. I can sense the flow of chi in others. It is difficult to explain or define, but with experience I believe it can be recognized, and refined. Some of my students can sense it as well. At times I use it as a guide to determine if a students technique is correctly done. There really isn't any simple way to describe what is happening in words. But, time and experience can clarify what it is.

I don't know if this helps or if you find this babble.
Normally, in my classes we don't really speak of chi, rather, we use the term energy. This tends to de-mystify what is going on.

Marty

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by chbaehr
Well, I for one do not believe CHI exists.

I believe that "CHI" is used to describe many things, from generating force in a punch or block to delivering pain relief in Accupucture. I believe that SOMETHING is happening, but that it all can be attributed to a single "life-force" called CHI is a bit of a stretch.

I am willing to accept a spiritual explanation regarding CHI, but the people explaining CHI to me ultimatly cause it to have a component in the physical world; it can throw someone across a room, it can break the 7th brick from the top in a stack of 10 bricks without damaging the other bricks, it can alleviate pain, etc.

Once the claim is made that CHI can have a physical effect on something, then it follows that we should be able to measure it, and be able to use scientific methods to study it.

When believers in "CHI" are asked about scientific study of "CHI", more times than not the reply is a story supporting the "CHI" cause, not actual scientific study.

I believe that we are entitled to a more concrete, detailed explanation regarding "CHI" than simply 'It exists, shut up and pratice", and the person making the claims should be the one supplying the answer.

chbaehr,

Welcome To Martial Talk.

If you have any questions or issue with the forum feel free to contact ay of the staff.

Also, feel free to post any of you questions in the appropriate forum for people to respond too.

Enjoy your stay here at Martial Talk.

Rich Parsons
MT Assistant Administrator

 

[Ninway J]

wingchunner, I agree. Very good.

I think Laozi states it well:

The five colors blind the eye.
The five tones deafen the ear.
The five flavors dull the taste.
Racing and hunting madden the mind.
Precious things lead one astray.

Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees.
He lets go of that and chooses this.

- Tao 12 -


Also a quote by scholar Jacob Needleman:

"Modern Anglo-American philosophy's tendency to reject metaphysics stems largely from our culture's loss of the art and science of real 'seeing.'"


I, myself, believe in an intangible force. However, I don't see it as mysterious or "mystical" by most people's definitions. I see it as natural and part of this universe in which we live.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by chbaehr
I believe that SOMETHING is happening, but that it all can be attributed to a single "life-force" called CHI is a bit of a stretch.

So what exactly do you attribute this SOMETHING to?

If something is happening why do you believe it doesn't exist? Maybe chi is the SOMETHING that is happening. In that case, why be so strongly against the existence of chi, but maybe just against the "mystical" unkown aspects people attribute many things to.

7sm

 

[someguy]

Define Chi before you fight over its existance.
Also does it matter if it exists or not. If you gain results does the explaination of how something works matter when you know how to gain results?

 

[Ninway J]

Originally posted by someguy
Define Chi before you fight over its existance.
Also does it matter if it exists or not. If you gain results does the explaination of how something works matter when you know how to gain results?

As far as defining chi, I think the above post by wingchunner says a lot.

Whether it matters if it exists or not is probably up to the individual. Obviously, here it matters, or else we wouldn't be here discussing it.

For those of us that believe in chi and have cultivated it enough to gain results, obviously it doesn't matter to us if we can't explain how it works.

 

[pete]

A Modern Definition of Qi
by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

It is important that you know about the progress that has been made by modern science in the study of Qi. This will keep you from getting stuck in the ancient concepts and level of understanding.

In ancient China, people had very little knowledge of electricity. They only knew from acupuncture that when a needle was inserted into the acupuncture cavities, some kind of energy other than heat was produced which often caused a shocking or a tickling sensation. It was not until the last few decades, when the Chinese people were more acquainted with electromagnetic science, that they began to recognize that this energy circulating in the body, which they called Qi, might be the same thing as what today's science calls "bioelectricity."

We must look at what modern Western science has discovered about bioelectromagnetic energy. Many bioelectricity related reports have been published, and frequently the results are closely related to what is experienced in Chinese Qigong training and medical science. For example, during the electrophysiological research of the 1960's, several investigators discovered that bones are piezoelectric; that is, when they are stressed, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy in the form of electric current. This might explain one of the practices of Marrow Washing Qigong in which the stress on the bones and muscles is increased in certain ways to increase the Qi circulation.

It is understood now that the human body is constructed of many different electrically conductive materials, and that it forms a living electromagnetic field and circuit. Electromagnetic energy is continuously being generated in the human body through the biochemical reaction in food and air assimilation, and circulated by the electromotive forces (EMF) generated within the body.

In addition, you are constantly being affected by external electromagnetic fields such as that of the earth, or the electrical fields generated by clouds. When you practice Chinese medicine or Qigong, you need to be aware of these outside factors and take them into account.

Countless experiments have been conducted in China, Japan, and other countries to study how external magnetic or electrical fields can affect and adjust the body's Qi field. Many acupuncturists use magnets and electricity in their treatments. They attach a magnet to the skin over a cavity and leave it there for a period of time. The magnetic field gradually affects the Qi circulation in that channel. Alternatively, they insert needles into cavities and then run an electric current through the needle to reach the Qi channels directly. Although many researchers have claimed a degree of success in their experiments, none has been able to publish any detailed and convincing proof of the results, or give a good explanation of the theory behind the experiment. As with many other attempts to explain the How and Why of acupuncture, conclu?sive proof is elusive, and many unanswered questions remain. Of course, this theory is quite new, and it will take more study and research before it is verified and completely understood.

Much of the research on the body's electrical field relates to acupuncture. For example, Dr. Robert O. Becker, author of The Body Electric, reports that the conductivity of the skin is much higher at acupuncture cav?ities, and that it is now possible to locate them precisely by measuring the skin's conductivity. Many of these reports prove that the acupuncture which has been done in China for thousands of years is reasonable and scientific.

Although the link between the theory of "the Body Electric" and the Chinese theory of Qi is becoming more accepted and better proven, there are still many questions to be answered. For example, how can the mind lead Qi (electricity)? How actually does the mind generate an EMF (electromotive force) to circulate the electricity in the body? How is the human electromagnetic field affected by the multitude of other electric fields which surround us, such as radio wiring or electrical appliances? How can we readjust our electromagnetic fields and survive in outer space or on other planets where the magnetic field is completely different from the earth's? You can see that the future of Qigong and bioelectric science is a challenging and exciting one. It is about time that we started to use modern technology to understand the inner energy world which has been for the most part ignored by Western society.

This article is a direct translation of text from the book ¡§Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style¡¨ by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. YMAA 1999

 

[Cruentus]

Cool. So Chi is Bioelectromagnetic energy. Neato! Does anybody have any references on studies that have been done regarding this energy? I would love to read about them.

:asian:

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Qi has been translated as many things. Air, energy, etc. If it is either of the former, how can you deny its existence? Surely both exist, else we would be non-existence, and in the case of the latter, certain laws of physics, engineering and other disciplines surely would not exist.

Dr. Yang being an engineer is very succint, and less prone to superstitions. Bio-energy has been fairly well documented, and in fact, is almost a prerequisite because one of the criteria that determines life is movement. If you run a google search, I'm sure you can find a plethora of both good and bad information, which should help illustrate both sides of the coin.

I am, as one might imagine, a firm believer in Qi; however, I don't think it is something mystical or the like. I think it is simply a natural byproduct of the living process, from interactions within the cells themselves, with the mitchondria as a possible source. Though I will say that there is oftentimes more to the situation than meets the eye. Things today that we take for granted, 100 years ago, or more, were inconceivable. What will the future bring?

 

[Ninway J]

Is it safe to say that the ancient Chinese people believed that Qi is within all living things? If so, that would include plants and trees. Do plants and trees have bioelectricity? If not, isn't Qi more than bioelectricity?

Dr. Yang defines Qi so that we do not get stuck in the ancient concepts and levels of understanding. So how do we know that his definition and the ancient definition of Qi is the same?

I'd like to think I have a pretty good understanding of Qi because I've done the work and achieved results, probably like many others here. To me, I don't need to have it defined. I think the people who don't understand need to have it defined for them. After all...

"defining things limits them"

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Ninway J
Is it safe to say that the ancient Chinese people believed that Qi is within all living things? If so, that would include plants and trees. Do plants and trees have bioelectricity? If not, isn't Qi more than bioelectricity?

All living things that we know of, have bioelectricity in some form. Bioelectricity can be caused by chemical reactions that carry information or it can be caused by nerve conduction on static impulses. This does not explain how, according to the classics, rocks would have chi. Perhaps they are mistaken and they don't. There seems to be a lot of religion mixed up in this concept and I believe that if we stripped away the mysticism, our understand would increase exponentially.

Originally posted by Ninway J
"defining things limits them"

Defining a concept sets it free. It allows humans to manipulate it. If chi was completely undefined, we would have no understanding of how it works or how to use it. As it stand now, I believe that chi is partially defined, which accounts for our partial understanding of what it can and cannot do.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Defining a concept sets it free. It allows humans to manipulate it. If chi was completely undefined, we would have no understanding of how it works or how to use it. As it stand now, I believe that chi is partially defined, which accounts for our partial understanding of what it can and cannot do.

And all things that humans cannot define, understand, or manipulate do not exist right? That way we are in complete control of our environment. Writing off something because you don't understand it or cannot define it is unwise.

7sm