The Existance of Chi

[Cruentus]

Paul,

I would ask you to keep an open mind....

Also, Bioelectrical energy has been studied and I believe quantified. Qi just means energy. So how is it that they are exclusive. We don't know they are. Like I said, there are some superstitious people out there, but don't wholesale disregard something because we don't have data to validate it. We may simply not have a means of quantifying it yet.

I have an open mind, but I will look at things with logic and scrutiny.

Having said that, I agree with your last statement. I also believe in Qi; mainly because acupuncture and chinese medicine does work, and it is based off manipulation of these energies. Watching someone go though a brain surgury on TV while fully conscience and able to communicate, with no anesthetic other then manipulation of their Chi through accupuncture needles will make a believer out of anyone.

I just think that to blow off the idea by saying something like, "science doesn't understand Chi because science can't explain everything" is a cop out. It implies that science will never understand this "mystical power." I think that to try equate "chi" to the every different energy belief in every different culture (like implying holy spirit, Prana, and Ki are all the same thing) without providing or having evidence is uneducated and pseudo religious. I think that many people would be better off saying that they "Don't know" instead of trying to make up some convoluded theory, and I think that they could then better stick to what they do know about the subject. They would definatily seem more credable that way.

IMHO

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Paul,

We are on the same page. I just wanted to make sure you kept the door open, if you know what I mean.

You just have to watch out for the guru type who wants to teach the secrets of Qi in a weekend for a fee type of thing. Happens WAY too often.

 

[someguy]

Not everything can be explained. Not by a human anyway. Logic has limits. It can't prove or disprove God 100%. At least not yet. Maybe chi can be proved some day. Maybe not.
It is almost impossible to prove a negative. Try to disprove the existance of a unicorn they don't exist but still show me they don't. Kind of hard isn't it. Feel free to prove me wrong on that. Any of that.
Chi is it real? I don't really know.

 

[Cruentus]

Paul,

We are on the same page. I just wanted to make sure you kept the door open, if you know what I mean.

You just have to watch out for the guru type who wants to teach the secrets of Qi in a weekend for a fee type of thing. Happens WAY too often.

So, you mean to tell me I should stop selling my video on how to through fireballs from your hands? :boing2: lol

 

[Cruentus]

Not everything can be explained. Not by a human anyway. Logic has limits. It can't prove or disprove God 100%. At least not yet. Maybe chi can be proved some day. Maybe not.
It is almost impossible to prove a negative. Try to disprove the existance of a unicorn they don't exist but still show me they don't. Kind of hard isn't it. Feel free to prove me wrong on that. Any of that.
Chi is it real? I don't really know.

We are not talking abut God, though, we are talking about Chi. In theory, if there is a God that created this world, he would not be bound by space/time, or the physics of this world. Therefore, not only could we not prove or disprove God because he wouldn't be bound by our physics, but he could create phenomenom that are not bound by our physics as well (thus how "miricles" may be a possability if there is a God). btw, I believe that there is a God.

Now, with Chi, we are not talking about a phenomenom that exists outside of our reality. In Acupuncture, we can manipulate Chi. According to Eastern Theory, we can manipulate Chi also through movement, posture, and breath. Because we know that acupuncture works, we know that this energy must exist within our bodies (although we don't know if it is bound to our bodies). So we are talking not about an uncontrollable phenomenom that exists beyond are reality, we are talking about a real energy that exists within our reality that we haven't been able to explain yet. Since this is what we are talking about (and not some force outside of our physical reality), then it must be measurable and detectable by science, even if we haven't figured out a way to detect and measure it yet.

:idea:

 

[Ninway J]

I think some people here don't want chi to be defined because it'll "cheapen" it or over-simplify it for them. For those people, they are better off just practicing without knowing the HOW. It's enough for them to just know that it works. I am one of these. I am also a spiritual person.

I think I've lately realized that chi is not just one thing, but many things. We just use that one word to name all those unexplainable things that happen.

If we were to then measure chi, as mentioned in previous posts, then many different things would have to be measured. Hook up someone to those huge bio-sensor machines while they are breaking ten bricks, or receiving accupuncture. :asian:

 

[Cruentus]

I think some people here don't want chi to be defined because it'll "cheapen" it or over-simplify it for them. For those people, they are better off just practicing without knowing the HOW. It's enough for them to just know that it works. I am one of these. I am also a spiritual person.

To each his own, I guess. I can respect not wanting to define it, but remember that when you say "chi might be this" or "chi might be that" or when you try to use Chi to explain all phenomenom that you don't understand, then you ARE indeed trying to define it.

Have a good day. :asian:

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I agree with Paul. The very nature of language requires definition. Qi is an ideogram that has specific meaning.

Look at it this way: Qi is an energy form. That is what the term refers to. Energy can take a myriad of forms and according to the Laws of Thermodynamics, can neither be created nor destroyed (Third law if memory serves). For years people did not realize the effect that sunlight had on them, yet they knew it was energy. We are a species which responds to stimuli, and various types of energies. In some ways we have gross reactions such as radiation sickness, or we may have more subtle (ie not seen with the naked eye) reaction, conversion of Vitamin D is an example. But without setting forth definitions, we would have never been able to determine those results.

Defining is not going hurt spiritualism. Indeed it may help. For example, the Heart Sutra of Vatsiyayana (sp?) begines "O Sariputra, form here is emptiness, emptiness is form [...]." This is an apt description of the state of matter wherein physics has discovered that "solid mass" is mostly empty. Without definition, we would have never uncovered that.

Life and science are miraculous fascinating creatures that do not necessarily exclude a life of spirituality. In fact some of the most spiritual people I have met, are among the most educated. Dr. Yang for example is an ardent believer in Qi and Chinese mysticism. and Yet he has a PhD in Engineering. My first teacher who was an adherent of both Zen and Taoist practice, mostly Taoist, was a tenured university professor. Without definition, these people would never have made their achievements, but by the same token, they never "cheapened" or over-simplified anything. We are limited by language, and as such, we are already limited in communication.

 

[someguy]

We are not talking abut God, though, we are talking about Chi. In theory, if there is a God that created this world, he would not be bound by space/time, or the physics of this world. Therefore, not only could we not prove or disprove God because he wouldn't be bound by our physics, but he could create phenomenom that are not bound by our physics as well (thus how "miricles" may be a possability if there is a God). btw, I believe that there is a God.
:

Agreed

Now, with Chi, we are not talking about a phenomenom that exists outside of our reality. In Acupuncture, we can manipulate Chi. According to Eastern Theory, we can manipulate Chi also through movement, posture, and breath. Because we know that acupuncture works, we know that this energy must exist within our bodies (although we don't know if it is bound to our bodies). So we are talking not about an uncontrollable phenomenom that exists beyond are reality, we are talking about a real energy that exists within our reality that we haven't been able to explain yet. Since this is what we are talking about (and not some force outside of our physical reality), then it must be measurable and detectable by science, even if we haven't figured out a way to detect and measure it yet.
:idea:

NOt fully in agreement with you here though. I can say that a coin is brought down to the ground when I drop is because it is the will of my computer but that does not mean that it is true. The coin will fall to the ground but my computer doesn't tell it to. THis is a bad example but none the less an explaination of something that works does not mean the explaination is true.
I hope that made some sense.

 

[pete]

What we have here is a discussion between the Martial Artist and the Martial Scientist, where just as most artists and scientists, will not fully appreciate the other's requirements for satisfaction.

The martial artist (include me here) does not understand the laws of thermodynamics, brain surgery, or rocket science, and will likely read the equivilant of Charlie Brown's teacher from that point forward. However, we will listen to our senses and see how to apply the paint to the canvas rather than dwell on the chemical breakdown of the paint.

The scientist must seek to understand why things are the way they are, and
how things work. However, unless we are truly professional scientists dedicated to this as a lifetime pursuit with the necessary educational background, there is a danger to dabble in areas we are not qualified to understand. The scientist will not be satisfied with the same information that satisfies the artist... and vise verse.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Pete,

I am both an engineer and a martial artist. I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I find they tend to help and support one another.

 

[7starmantis]

My only problem with the argument of "we must be able to detect it and measure it if it exists", is that before we could measure gravity or any energy for that matter, said energy still existed and was able to do work. I agree that there should be some method of detecting and measuring it, but as of now we can't. And even though we can't, it is still there doing work and existing.

So that argument neither proves nor disproves anything, it is moot in the existence of chi. It does bring across a good point that chi is not spiritual or super-natural however.

7sm

 

[Ninway J]

I have some questions, and I'm curious to know your answers.

Can robots have or utilize chi?

If a robot walks up to a pile of 10 bricks and breaks all 10 at one time, is it the same as a human being doing it?

What about a robot performing a kung fu form correctly?

Or a malfunctioned robot being repaired by a robot mechanic (likened to accupuncture treatment for humans?)

 

[Max15]

I have ben doing tai chi for quite a while, and I may not know exactly what chi is however I have experienced it and I do know that something is happening in my body, it dousnt matter if it is exactly what we think it is or not. All that matters is the experience and practice. I do know that the more I am willing to experience it and the more dedication I pute toward it the more I am able to be aware of it. I still dont know exactly waht it is and I dont think anybody els knows exactly what it is either, however there are scientific studies that have ben happening that do conferm that certian things do happen which, to some extent douse prove that chi exists. I dont know for certian if it is mystical or not, I think that it is probably just some aspect of science that we are not totaly aware of yet. But none of this matters at all, all that matters is if you are willing to try it out with an open mind and maybe even a suspesntion of what you think is possible something will happen to you possibly. In the end I think all it should be looked at for know is an exprience, a positive and meaningful experience. After all if it douse exist the more that we dout it and say that it dousnt the more likely it is to fade away as superstition. Read the book the holographic univers or maybe watch the movie (What The $#@$ Do you know anyway). I dont believe everything in them but they are pretty interesting, and I think they can be tide into the belief of chi, I believe eveyone should stop douting and find out for themselves

 

[Max15]

My answere to you question Ninway is that I believe robots can do some things, however humans have certian characteristics that can not be reproduced in an artificial creation such as a robot, some things are just organic. But then again science has a long way to go. I hope that some things are unique to us as humans such as performing kung fu which is one of the things you asked but then again I dont know.

 

[chi-ca]

If you're looking for some scientific answers to the existance of Chi you might enjoy reading "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra. It's a truely fascinating look at the relationship between science and eastern philosophies. The chapter called "Emptiness and Form" discusses quantum physics and chi. Well worth the read.

 

[New boy]

I love movies especially the second movie of the original Star Wars Series. The scene where Yoda was teaching young Skywalker how to use force & to feel the force of all things including non-living objects such as stones & the X-fighter, I think, closely resembles the traditional chi theory in Dao. What do you think?

 

[Max15]

Yep I agree it very much douse share alot of simularities

 

[raedyn]

I may not know exactly what chi is however I have experienced it and I do know that something is happening in my body,

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say you have experienced something that you would describe as chi? That it fits your understanding of what chi is?

This is not meant as a criticism, but the semantics do make a difference. It's difficult for us to dicuss something abstract when we can't be sure if we are discussing the same thing! (This of, of course, is the challenge in discussing any abstract concept. At least if we are talking about something concrete - a table for instance - we can be fairly confident that we all have the same idea of what a table is).

I, too, have had experiences that I feel I can best explain by talking about ki (I am an initiate of Reiki if that means anything to you). But I can't be sure that what I experienced and call 'ki' is the same thing you experienced.

 

[lhommedieu]

A Brief History of Qi by by Yu Huan Zhang, Zhang Yu Huan, and Ken Rose (available from Amazon.com) offers an analysis of the concept of Qi from the perspective of traditional Chinese culture.

Best,

Steve Lamade