The Essence of your kung fu

VPT said:
Are you, by any chance, talking about the stuff that Doo Wai teaches?
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No. Woo Ching is a respected head master of a Tibetan White Crane school in Boston, I believe at least one of his teachers was Chan Hok Fu. He was from a small village near Luofu. He recited a history of the villagers mixing many methods, including Pak Mei with Tibetan White Crane. One of his students (senior instructor) has a blog where he tells of the story, I also have heard the same thing from my shifu, I have no reason to doubt the validity. If I'm not mistaken, the late Lama Pai master Chan Tai San also studied Pak Mei under CLC. Not hard to believe that a small village would patch together a method based on different arts they learned. Some oral legends of Tibetan Crane mention Emei.
 
I'm not familiar with Woo Ching, but Doo Wai also teaches something under the name of "Omei Bak Mei". I don't believe in any of his stuff for a second.

I also doubt any existence of "village Bak Mei" in Huizhou area. CLC did study with a guy called Lam Hap in Huizhou as well as Lei Ga Boxing, but as I stated above, according to my current knowledge he only came up with his invention of "Bak Mei" in Guangzhou (by the late 1920s) where he had made name for himself along with his cousin by marriage Lam Yiu Gwai, with whom he had studied under Lam Hap.

I don't believe he taught Bak Mei to anyone in Luofu area in Huizhou, neither have I heard of any of his students (mainly Tsang Wai Bok and Ha Hon Hung) having taught anyone who'd went there.
 
VPT said:
I'm not familiar with Woo Ching, but Doo Wai also teaches something under the name of "Omei Bak Mei". I don't believe in any of his stuff for a second.

I also doubt any existence of "village Bak Mei" in Huizhou area. CLC did study with a guy called Lam Hap in Huizhou as well as Lei Ga Boxing, but as I stated above, according to my current knowledge he only came up with his invention of "Bak Mei" in Guangzhou (by the late 1920s) where he had made name for himself along with his cousin by marriage Lam Yiu Gwai, with whom he had studied under Lam Hap.

I don't believe he taught Bak Mei to anyone in Luofu area in Huizhou, neither have I heard of any of his students (mainly Tsang Wai Bok and Ha Hon Hung) having taught anyone who'd went there.
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IDK, but There are many Lama Pai, Hop Gar & Tibetan Crane individuals that have studied Pak Mei or Yongchun (my branch is a village system with roots in Yongchun). I have no reason to believe that anyone is lying about having learned a little Bai Mei or anything else and mixing it with their crane. The Tibetan arts have their own storied fighting tradition & don't need to piggyback off if anyone else's achievements. Its not my lineage so I can't really validate anything, but also have no reason to disbelieve it.

As far as Emei Crane, many charlatans have used that name when describing their created versions of white crane. As I stated, historically, Emei is associated with the crane legend, and Lions Roar (Tibetan Crane, Hop Gar & Lama Pai) is the only crane method with a legitimate claim to that area. Also there is an Emei version of Bai Mei (based on ape), said to be different to what CLC created, it could be this method that the villagers mixed with their Pak Hok Pai, I really don't know TBH.
 
Nobody Important said:
IDK, but There are many Lama Pai, Hop Gar & Tibetan Crane individuals that have studied Pak Mei or Yongchun (my branch is a village system with roots in Yongchun). I have no reason to believe that anyone is lying about having learned a little Bai Mei or anything else and mixing it with their crane. The Tibetan arts have their own storied fighting tradition & don't need to piggyback off if anyone else's achievements. Its not my lineage so I can't really validate anything, but also have no reason to disbelieve it.

As far as Emei Crane, many charlatans have used that name when describing their created versions of white crane. As I stated, historically, Emei is associated with the crane legend, and Lions Roar (Tibetan Crane, Hop Gar & Lama Pai) is the only crane method with a legitimate claim to that area. Also there is an Emei version of Bai Mei (based on ape), said to be different to what CLC created, it could be this method that the villagers mixed with their Pak Hok Pai, I really don't know TBH.
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Bak Mei Rule of Thumb #1: If someone says their Bak Mei is not related to CLC, they are not speaking the truth. :)

I am not by any means discarding some Pak Hok people learning Bak Mei at some point; I know next to nothing about Pak Hok and it's one of those styles that baffle me yet seem to be very popular in the States and it's very plausible that someone would have learned something at some point from someone (inside the broader CLC lineage). However, I am more aware of the actual history of Bak Mei behind the oral legends and based on that I'm just being sceptic in a healthy manner.
 
VPT said:
Bak Mei Rule of Thumb #1: If someone says their Bak Mei is not related to CLC, they are not speaking the truth. :)

I am not by any means discarding some Pak Hok people learning Bak Mei at some point; I know next to nothing about Pak Hok and it's one of those styles that baffle me yet seem to be very popular in the States and it's very plausible that someone would have learned something at some point from someone (inside the broader CLC lineage). However, I am more aware of the actual history of Bak Mei behind the oral legends and based on that I'm just being sceptic in a healthy manner.
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Agree, CLC is the founder of the method referred to as Bai Mei today.

The Emei Bai Mei legend is much older and is a completely different art, not Hakka, long fist, based on a white ape, & said to be the foundation of the modern Emei martial arts. Different art, same name, and most likely doesnt exist as a seperate style today, having been completely absorbed by the modern Emei system. There is a theory that it was a varient of old Tongbei and the inspiration for the ape techniques in Tibetan White Crane. I don't know enough about it to make an educated decision for or against.

Just trying to show that Emei Crane is a valid system, actually just a rarely used description for village variations of Pak Hok Pai like Woo Ching's version (though they don't refer to themselves as Emei Crane AFAIK, other groups call them that). Can't speak for any other groups using it to describe or validate their crane style. IMO if it isn't Pak Hok Pai related, it probably isn't legitimately from Emei region and a relatively new creation.
 
Documentary on Emei martial arts.


Search Youtube, plenty of legit Emei style videos plus others calling themselves Emei. The arts coming from Emei have a northern flavor, Szechuan & Yunan village methods are a little crude but still have a predominate northern flair. If it looks Fujian and is calling itself Emei, it probably isn't.
 
Nobody Important said:
Omei Crane is legit. Just another name for Tibetan White Crane, generally in reference to village versions which are mixed with another art like Pak Mei, Wing Chun etc. Woo Ching's version would technically be considered an Omei derivitive. As a term it became popular with the Shaolin Do people who attached the label to their "version" of white crane and the history of crane being developed in the west, it definitely isn't the same.
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That is interesting. I never saw Omei crane in connection to Shaolin-do, but I ran into it connected to Green Dragon Studios, under sifu John Allen, I believe they call it "Wu Mei crane". Many many years ago I had one of their instructional videos from one of their "Wu Mei white crane" forms, I believe they called it "little crane fist" or something. Since I began study of Tibetan white crane much later than when I had that video, I can say in hindsight that it is little or nothing like our Tibetan material. Stylistically it is very different, does not have any resemblance to any of our forms that I am familiar with, and the fundamental principles and practices were missing from the video, and in fact were never even mentioned.

The Shaolin-do is something that i also trained for a while, and their crane material done at the under belt levels was also definitely not the Tibetan material. In hindsight it also seemed significantly different from the Green Dragon stuff. I don't know if they do additional material at higher levels, which i never saw...

So if Green Dragon's material is representative of Omei, then in my opinion it is not Tibetan Crane, or it has been altered so significantly as to have become something else. Same goes for the Shaolin-do material, as far as I saw it.
 
Flying Crane said:
That is interesting. I never saw Omei crane in connection to Shaolin-do, but I ran into it connected to Green Dragon Studios, under sifu John Allen, I believe they call it "Wu Mei crane". Many many years ago I had one of their instructional videos from one of their "Wu Mei white crane" forms, I believe they called it "little crane fist" or something. Since I began study of Tibetan white crane much later than when I had that video, I can say in hindsight that it is little or nothing like our Tibetan material. Stylistically it is very different, does not have any resemblance to any of our forms that I am familiar with, and the fundamental principles and practices were missing from the video, and in fact were never even mentioned.

The Shaolin-do is something that i also trained for a while, and their crane material done at the under belt levels was also definitely not the Tibetan material. In hindsight it also seemed significantly different from the Green Dragon stuff. I don't know if they do additional material at higher levels, which i never saw...

So if Green Dragon's material is representative of Omei, then in my opinion it is not Tibetan Crane, or it has been altered so significantly as to have become something else. Same goes for the Shaolin-do material, as far as I saw it.
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Agree, the only crane system with any legitimate claim to Emei is Tibetan Crane. Many White Crane legends talk about crane originating in the West. I think many individuals used this to promote their newly developed crane methods as old, and associated their "origins" with Emei figuring nobody would question the validity as information on Emei is scarce. Emei is heavily influenced by northern CMA' s, when I see short bridge & narrow stance crane styles claiming Emei heritage it throws up a red flag.
 
Nobody Important said:
Agree, the only crane system with any legitimate claim to Emei is Tibetan Crane. Many White Crane legends talk about crane originating in the West. I think many individuals used this to promote their newly developed crane methods as old, and associated their "origins" with Emei figuring nobody would question the validity as information on Emei is scarce. Emei is heavily influenced by northern CMA' s, when I see short bridge & narrow stance crane styles claiming Emei heritage it throws up a red flag.
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I guess I don't understand what claim on Ermei the Tibetan system may make? I've never heard it in any of the history related by my sifu.
 
Flying Crane said:
Based on that article, I would say that if there is an Omei crane system, it is their own thing and not a derivative from the Tibetan system.
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There are no stand alone crane systems with Emei heritage other than Pak Hok Pai, and that is tenuous at best, having resided at Emei and not developed there. Again, many used Emei & crane legends to promote newly created crane systems like what Green Dragon & Shaolin Do promoted, they have no legitimate claim to Emei.
 
Flying Crane said:
I guess I don't understand what claim on Ermei the Tibetan system may make? I've never heard it in any of the history related by my sifu.
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Emei temple used to be part of Tibet, the whole of Szechuan & Yunan provinces were part of Tibet up until 1950s. Some legends of Lion's Roar state that the system was brought to Emei before Sing Lung traveled south in late 1800s. Sing Lung's teacher Jickbowloktow was said to have resided there. Mizong Lamaism is popular in that region.
 
Nobody Important said:
There are no stand alone crane systems with Emei heritage other than Pak Hok Pai, and that is tenuous at best, having resided at Emei and not developed there. Again, many used Emei & crane legends to promote newly created crane systems like what Green Dragon & Shaolin Do promoted, they have no legitimate claim to Emei.
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Ok, I'm still trying to understand the Ermei connection with Pak Hok. It has just never come up in what I've heard. Are you saying that some proponent of the Bak Hok system resided at Ermei for some time? I don't know how well documented the early generations of Bak Hok are, it is my understanding that there is a gap of a few hundred years between the origins of the system, and it's arrival in southern China. I suppose people in those early generations could have ended up in many places, and the early versions of the system would have looked quite different from the current state of the curriculum. These things do tend to evolve and develop and change over time.

Additionally, I don't know if the method was ever called "White Crane/Bak Hok" by the earlier generations. It is my understanding that it was Lama Pai until rather recently, it got the name Hop Ga after coming to China, and the Bak Hok branch didn't split until the 1950s or so.
 
Nobody Important said:
Emei temple used to be part of Tibet, the whole of Szechuan & Yunan provinces were part of Tibet up until 1950s. Some legends of Lion's Roar state that the system was brought to Emei before Sing Lung traveled south in late 1800s. Sing Lung's teacher Jickbowloktow was said to have resided there. Mizong Lamaism is popular in that region.
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Ah, ok, interesting stuff. I don't know intimate details of a lot of the history, just the main storyline.
 
Flying Crane said:
Ok, I'm still trying to understand the Ermei connection with Pak Hok. It has just never come up in what I've heard. Are you saying that some proponent of the Bak Hok system resided at Ermei for some time? I don't know how well documented the early generations of Bak Hok are, it is my understanding that there is a gap of a few hundred years between the origins of the system, and it's arrival in southern China. I suppose people in those early generations could have ended up in many places, and the early versions of the system would have looked quite different from the current state of the curriculum. These things do tend to evolve and develop and change over time.

Additionally, I don't know if the method was ever called "White Crane/Bak Hok" by the earlier generations. It is my understanding that it was Lama Pai until rather recently, it got the name Hop Ga after coming to China, and the Bak Hok branch didn't split until the 1950s or so.
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Sing Lung was 1 of 5 disciples of Jickbowlocktow. There is an obscure branch out of Germany (I think, met the fellow years ago) descended from Jickbowloktow not through Sing Lung. Their material is similar to Woo Ching's, different but recognizable, than the main stream Ng Siu Chung system out of Hong Kong. Myself, one of the branches I studied came from a training brother of Ng Siu Chung by the name of Ng Chien Ho, another lesser known student of Wong Lam Hoi. Forms are very different in choreography than Ng Siu Chung. Most in Pak Hok are only familiar with the material coming from Ng Siu Chung and the "4 Fu's" (Chan Hok Fu, Luk Chi Fu, Kwong Boon Fu & another I can't seem to remember, lol). There's an awesome lineage chart out of the Philippines that lists a majority of Lion's Roar practitioners (Lama Pai, Pak Hok Pai, Hop Gar). It shows who learned from who and who passed material on. There are some gaps, but not many for modern age of the art. Prior to Sing Lung is known, but not public, I think because there is some contention and ethnic pride involved, but the line from Adatuo to Sing Lung is recorded without gaps.
 
DaveB said:
I'll do my best.

I was told that though it's called Tiger-crane it's really crane with elements of tiger style.

So the crane is light and mobile, keeping away from the opponents force and striking with precision. It uses the waist to deflect and power strikes, it sticks and throws its energy rather than thrusts.

The tiger roots its self and actively rips away the opponent's defence. It smashes and once in contact siezes and controls.

Not a concise explanation but I think that sums up the style... Does it seem familiar?
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By Tiger-crane do you mean Hung Ga? (I know Hung Ga is sometimes called this.) If so, the essence of Hung Ga is contained in the principles described by the 12 bridge hands. Not 12 techniques, but rather 12 concepts upon which Hung Ga is built.
 
There was discussion about this earlier in a different thread. It's actually a Fujian style, basically crane mixed with tiger or vice versa. Not Hung Ga.

 
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