The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[_Simon_]

Firstly... you Taijiquan guys are freakin' awesome. And bonkers. But in a really good way! I learn alot from reading your discussions, and I very much hope to practice Taijiquan one day. I feel it would benefit my karate practice deeply.

It is very hard for me to use my Taijiquan, because I only use it when I least expected it. And when I use it, not even I know what I will be doing. Often, I do not even know what I am doing while I am doing it. However, I experience something strange -- Almost like a weightless motion, or a void of motion, and instead the entire universe bends around my body to snap into the correct position. I often say it is like two magnets snapping together but thats not the right analogy somehow.

I've experienced similar things when doing karate forms... what do you suppose are the preconditions for this sort of experience? I feel like it's something that can't ever be forced... but being in a certain space of receptivity, attentiveness and listening in your own being... like you can only provide the groundwork of appropriate conditions and then something just... opens up. Of its own. Of course, it helps that I'm not practicing solely for utilitarian/practical purposes, but have very much an inquiring, contemplative mind I guess.

 

[Appledog]

what do you suppose are the preconditions for this sort of experience?

Ishi no ue ni sannen~

 

[Badhabits]

It is very hard for me to use my Taijiquan, because I only use it when I least expected it. And when I use it, not even I know what I will be doing. Often, I do not even know what I am doing while I am doing it. However, I experience something strange -- Almost like a weightless motion, or a void of motion, and instead the entire universe bends around my body to snap into the correct position. I often say it is like two magnets snapping together but thats not the right analogy somehow. Therefore, as I have experienced, you can only ever teach people who have the correct morality and the correct intention. Because it is solely based on the intention and morality that the action will be destructive or not. If you allow your mind to wander while training and a wayward thought or a devilish thought appears, you will hurt someone.

What's wrong with the devilish thought? Isn't the point to hurt someone?
Is the first part of what you said because you've internalized your art? If you've internalized it, then will your body react to a non threat, or only react on its own when there is a real threat?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is very hard for me to use my Taijiquan, because I only use it when I least expected it. And when I use it, not even I know what I will be doing. Often, I do not even know what I am doing while I am doing it.

Is it strange that we don't hear anyone who talks about how to use his Taiji skill in sparring. Why?

 

[Appledog]

Is it strange that we don't hear anyone who talks about how to use his Taiji skill in sparring. Why?

I don't know, that isn't my experience. You said you trained taiji since you were 7. What is your experience using taiji skill in sparring?

By the way I really like the 'red phoenix enters nest' video you posted earlier. If I could train just one technique for the rest of my life that would be a canidate!

 

[Appledog]

What's wrong with the devilish thought? Isn't the point to hurt someone?

Not while you are training. It is forbidden to hurt your training partner during push hands.

Is the first part of what you said because you've internalized your art? If you've internalized it, then will your body react to a non threat, or only react on its own when there is a real threat?

It's because I didn't train enough or because I didn't have enough experience. If I trained more often I think I could do it more often.

Don't forget that taiji comes directly from "shaolin" style martial arts. Most kinds of pure shaolin style are good foundations for taijiquan. However, if you feel taiji is your bag, at a certain point you should focus on it and not on other things. For me, I like aikido because its supposed to be an art where you dont hurt your opponent as much. I prefer to be peaceful, for daoist and buddhist kind of philosophy.

 

[Same Trick]

What's wrong with the devilish thought? Isn't the point to hurt someone?

“True warriors are fierce because their training is fierce.”

- Miyamoto Musashi

 

[windwalker099]

It is very hard for me to use my Taijiquan, because I only use it when I least expected it. And when I use it, not even I know what I will be doing. Often, I do not even know what I am doing while I am doing it.

Is it strange that we don't hear anyone who talks about how to use his Taiji skill in sparring. Why?

Maybe because the focus for many is different.

Appledog: And when I use it

It's not clear what this means
Use it for what, how, why, ect....

In the 70s, many talked about how CMA (Chinese Martial Arts) practitioners never used what they practiced in the ring or in sparring. Whatever they did looked the same as any other method, with most labeling it "kickboxing," a disservice to those who were kick boxers.

In most cases, clearly not at the level of a kick boxer, nor representative of what they trained.

During that time, many instructors within CMA hosting events wanted to find a way to ensure those entering the ring competitions actually practiced CMA.

One of my own focuses was attempting to rectify this with everyone I met. Tibetan White Crane is rather unique in this aspect, as its footwork and long-arm techniques are quite distinctive. In this, I felt I was quite successful, although the competition aspects weren't something I had enough interest in to train for, preferring to be a sparring partner for some who did.

For Taiji, what is it known for?
What would be some of the signature movements or tactics identifying it as such?
Is it important for it to be so?

In push hands, the thread topic, some talked about the level and type, feeling it was not representative of push hands as they practice it.

As some know, within push hands practice, there is fixed step, moving step, and free hand.
The first two are training methods, while the last, "free hand," is often what most use.

Unfortunately, in many cases, practitioners have not gone through the fixed step and moving step trainings, which, depending on style, can be quite extensive, involving many different types of hand and footwork patterns.

This might account for the level and type of push hands commonly seen and used by students, and the differences between it and what teachers show and use in demos.

Push hands, once a bridge to (散手, sǎn shǒu) "free fighting" or "free hand," has, through its promotion as a competition, become for many an end unto itself.

Some practitioners, feeling they have acquired some skill, sometimes publicly engage with those not doing push hands.
Feeling its the same

The results, often displayed on YouTube, frequently presented as commentary on Taiji as a martial practice.

 

[windwalker099]

have no idea what you guys are doing in the photo

He was not able to use his force, even directly against my body.
This, a way to demonstrate and allow another to feel and test an idea in use.

"太极推手中的精髓功夫---松沉劲。The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu -- Slack strength。"

The video talks about it, going through different examples using it, and not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know, that isn't my experience. You said you trained taiji since you were 7. What is your experience using taiji skill in sparring?

By the way I really like the 'red phoenix enters nest' video you posted earlier. If I could train just one technique for the rest of my life that would be a canidate!

By using Taiji in sparring, not much on the strategy level. I like to attack first and force my opponent to respond to my attack so I can deal with their respond.

I like the body chase arm method used in "brush knee twist step" - finger tips touch first, drop palm, and put body into it. This method works pretty well with my light jab. When my fist can touch my opponent's body, I then put my body into it. This method also works pretty good with my rhino guard and double hooks. I can relax and use speed to let my arm to contact my opponent's arm. I then put my body into it to bounce my opponent's arm away (to clear away my attacking path).

I also like that drill. I like all drills that has fast footwork (unfortunately, Taiji is not famous in footwork).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Maybe because the focus for many is different.

I can only speak for myself. I won't train anything that I can't use in the ring or on the mat. So, when I talk about Taiji, I like to talk about "Taiji for combat". I don't like to talk about "Taiji for health".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I prefer to be peaceful,

Peace can only be reached within the cannon range. Any country that has no nuclear bomb, has no right to talk about world peace.

 

[windwalker099]

I can only speak for myself. I won't train anything that I can't use in the ring or on the mat. So, when I talk about Taiji, I like to talk about "Taiji for combat". I don't like to talk about "Taiji for health".

Don’t know what training for health means,
My posts based on understanding different aspects of usage by others, whether I agree with it or not

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Don’t know what training for health means,

Train for health means that person has no interest in application. My 1st Taiji teacher was a person like that (when I was 7). He was a monk. But one time he ate a turtle.

 

[Appledog]

Maybe because the focus for many is different.

It is.

During that time, many instructors within CMA hosting events wanted to find a way to ensure those entering the ring competitions actually practiced CMA.

Just ask who their teacher is. If they cannot get an endorsement from a teacher, they probably don't really know any CMA. There are special cases. This is how it was when I was judging in the USAWKF. We pulled one guy aside and Master Look asked me directly, "what do you think about this guy's skill?" I said, "I don't know, he's not making any mistakes," and he said "that's right." We asked him who his teacher was and as it turned out he was doing taiji for 15 or 20 years but had entered the beginner Taiji forms division. We had to kick him out of the division. I can't remember if he was allowed to join the advanced division.

Unfortunately, in many cases, practitioners have not gone through the fixed step and moving step trainings, which, depending on style, can be quite extensive, involving many different types of hand and footwork patterns.

I can spend 3 or 4 classes just teaching people how to punch. Beginners commit a litany of mistakes, from punching with thumbs in odd positions, to punching with bend wrists, all sorts of mistakes. It takes a long time, just to learn how to punch.

This might account for the level and type of push hands commonly seen and used by students, and the differences between it and what teachers show and use in demos.

No it's something else.

Push hands, once a bridge to (散手, sǎn shǒu) "free fighting" or "free hand," has, through its promotion as a competition, become for many an end unto itself.

Push hands can cover a very wide range of things, and like sticky hands, can be expanded slightly to cover most sparring, IMO anyways.

Um, so, this is a difficult conversation to have because I've mentioned to you the reason why the skills shown and the skills trained differ, a few times.. but you don't seem to want to talk about it. That is fair, there are things I don't feel comfortable talking about online either. In this case though I lay the blame squarely on the student. Most students have no idea what they need to do in order to pick up what the teacher is showing. In some respects I don't think it is possible for this generation to really learn martial arts. You would need someone who is very special, who wants it very much.

As a teacher you will have to know what to look for. You have to be in the right place at the right time. Hiding in the dojo will not work anymore. It is important to promote visibility. That is one important thing I am doing, which anyone could do.

 

[Appledog]

Train for health means that person has no interest in application. My 1st Taiji teacher was a person like that (when I was 7). He was a monk. But one time he ate a turtle.

I like this story. If you really want to know about tai chi, I would say, go back to the monk. I would like to meet this monk. He sounds like a very friendly person. Of course, this is probably impossible

 

[windwalker099]

Um, so, this is a difficult conversation to have because I've mentioned to you the reason why the skills shown and the skills trained differ, a few times.. but you don't seem to want to talk about it

Actually it's not..

It's easy with those with the same experiences, like KF Wang.
Even if we don't agree at times....

The OP video explained it quite clearly, the why and what..offering commentary expressing a viewpoint.

Train for health means that person has no interest in application. My 1st Taiji teacher was a person like that (when I was 7). He was a monk. But one time he ate a turtle.

My writing can sometimes be unclear.

When I said, "Don’t know what training for health means," I meant that health is not my focus.

While health benefits may occur indirectly, they are not the main goal of the practice.
For those seeking Taiji for health, I always recommend they learn from others who specialize in that area.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I would like to meet this monk. He sounds like a very friendly person. Of course, this is probably impossible

That was 70 years ago when I was in my 3rd grade.

 

[Buka]

“True warriors are fierce because their training is fierce.”

- Miyamoto Musashi

Straight fact right there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's wrong with the devilish thought? Isn't the point to hurt someone?

My long fist teacher was a peaceful person (he passed away at age of 97). He always liked to talk about Wude - MA morality. One day I asked him why he trained iron palm. His respond was to hurt his enemy. The term "peaceful person" had different meaning for me after that day.

This is iron palm training. You can tell this is not "training for health".

When I swing my Guan Dao and try to cut my opponent's head off in training, will you believe that I'm a peaceful person?