The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[Xue Sheng]

Maybe we look at movement a little different

Some "general" methods of training
understanding there is overlap...as needed..

Technique-Based Movement:
Focus: Specific, repetitive movements.
Training: Drills and practice of precise forms and sequences.
Examples: Karate blocks, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guard passes, Northern Praying Mantis strikes.

Principle-Based Movement:
Focus: Adhering to overarching principles that guide movements.
Training: Emphasis on concepts like balance, flow, blending, and controlling space.
Examples: Tai Chi’s focus on Qi, Aikido’s blending, Wing Chun’s centerline control.

For the most part, my practice is principle-based.
The movements are not practiced for what they can do, but for what they enable one to do within the context of the guiding principles of one’s style. Over time, there is no distinction between it, and oneself.

my practice:
"Empirical based taiji practice theory and usage
Reflecting the teachings of Master Zhang Youngliang,
and other noted masters of taiji."

This may or may not be important depending on ones training focus.
mine is taiji others like KF Wang, for example might have a different focus not caring so much about
style specific principles only what the movements themselves give to his practice.

I'll be honest, I am not sure what you are trying to say there.

But in Taijiquan, if done correctly, IMO, it is next to impossible to answer the question, what would a Taiji person do if I do 'A'..... from a taijiquan perspective it all depends on the force/energy/strength being used by the aggressor. Not all punches, even though they can be catagorized as a straight punch, a jab, uppercut, or hook, are the same. Therefore the response/defense is not the same.

 

[windwalker099]

I'll be honest, I am not sure what you are trying to say there.

But in Taijiquan, if done correctly, IMO, it is next to impossible to answer the question, what would a Taiji person do if I do 'A'..... from a taijiquan perspective it all depends on the force/energy/strength being used by the aggressor. Not all punches, even though they can be catagorized as a straight punch, a jab, uppercut, or hook, are the same. Therefore the response/defense is not the same.

You got it

For me, "correctly" means adhering to the principles of the system being studied. Within Taiji, there are variations by noted teachers who explain their movements using the same principles, each being "correct" for their style.

One way to understand this is through the lens of principle-based movement. For example, the silk reeling principle can be seen in movement, with some exercises explicitly designed to develop this quality.

Another perspective, technique-based movement, with demonstrations of silk reeling using different movements.

People prioritize different aspects based on their outlook
Asking about techniques, why this or that is not done, or missing.

While others focused on principles, understanding the why something is not done or practiced, it does not
reflect the principles their practice's are based on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For the most part, my practice is principle-based.
The movements are not practiced for what they can do, but for what they enable one to do within the context of the guiding principles of one’s style. Over time, there is no distinction between it, and oneself.

Could you share your personal experience by using Taiji principles to deal with:

- straight punches (such as jab, cross),
- circular punches (such as hook, back fist, overhand),
- straight kick (such as front kick, side kick),
- circular kicks (such as crescent kick, hook kick)?

I really like to see the difference between using Taiji principles vs. using other MA principles (such as white crane).

This can show the difference between your principle-based training vs. the technique-based training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

People prioritize different aspects based on their outlook
Asking about techniques, why this or that is not done, or missing.

While others focused on principles, understanding the why something is not done or practiced, it does not
reflect the principles their practice's are based on.

So, how do a Taiji guy deal with circular dragging? Can you find any solution in principles? I don't think you can. IMO, you can only find solution in strategy. But if those strategies are used in all MA systems, you won't be able to call it Taiji only strategy.

IMO, the principle-based training is too abstract to be realistic. MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock. The only master key that can open all locks is to "remain safe distance". But that's not Taiji only principle/strategy.

 

[windwalker099]

I really like to see the difference between using Taiji principles vs. using other MA principles (such as white crane).

This can show the difference between your principle-based training vs. the technique-based training

Feel you’re confused.
Tibetan White crane is also principal based. . One of the things I liked about the style.

N-mantis is technique based . One of many things I didn’t like about it.

As for distinctions .

You talk about grabbing, a technique
In taiji we talk about sticking, a principle

Most people know what grabbing means and how to do it.

Can you talk about what sticking means and how to do it?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You talk about grabbing a technique
In taiji we talk about sticking a principle

Most people know what grabbing means and how to do it.

Can you talk about what sticking means and how to do it?

Why do I want to use sticking if I can grab? When my opponent tries to break my wrist grips, I already move my hands to control his elbow joints. I'm always 1 step ahead of him.



In SC, sticking requires grabbing too.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In SC, sticking requires grabbing too.

There is grabbing in Taijiquan, because there is Qinna

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is grabbing in Taijiquan, because there is Qinna

There are 2 different kinds of Taiji people on earth.

- The 1st kind people are like you and I who believes Taiji has kick, punch, lock, throw.
- The 2nd kind people may think Taiji is just "push". All other stuff are low level skills.

Nobody wants to talk about Taiji kick. Why?

 

[windwalker099]

There is grabbing in Taijiquan, because there is Qinna

There is grabbing in your taiji practice ?
Does "Qinna" require grabbing ?

He talks about "before touch"

 

[windwalker099]

Why do I want to use sticking if I can grab? When my opponent tries to break my wrist grips, I already move my hands to control his elbow joints. I'm always 1 step ahead of him.

In practical application, there is no time for someone to readjust, as suggested.
During the practice of grabbing and issuing, time is given to prevent injury and to allow one to feel what is happening

As shown

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is grabbing in your taiji practice ?
Does "Qinna" require grabbing ?

The answer is yes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In practical application, there is no time for someone to readjust, as suggested.
During the practice of grabbing and issuing, time is given to prevent injury and to allow one to feel what is happening

As shown

I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post.

1. My right-hand grab on your left wrist.
2. You left arm try to break my grab.
3. I move my right hand to your left elbow joint.

The reason that I do 1 is because I want to do 3 (0.01 - 0.02). 1 is only a set up. If you treat my set up as my real intention, am I 1 step ahead of you?

 

[windwalker099]

Like this teacher's work

I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post.

It's ok..

our experience's seem to be very different

Kung Fu Wang: The reason that I do 1 is because I want to do 3 (0.01 - 0.02). 1 is only a set up. If you treat my set up as my real intention, am I 1 step ahead of you?

Look at the clip and see what the teacher is saying and doing..

But when you use it, not after touch, before touch

 

[Xue Sheng]

There is grabbing in your taiji practice ?
Does "Qinna" require grabbing ?

He talks about "before touch"

lets not get into semantics please. Tung Ying Chieh was a fan of Qinna, and my shifu had the best qinna I have ever experienced

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are 2 different kinds of Taiji people on earth.

- The 1st kind people are like you and I who believes Taiji has kick, punch, lock, throw.
- The 2nd kind people may think Taiji is just "push". All other stuff are low level skills.

Nobody wants to talk about Taiji kick. Why?

There are kicks in taijiquan, heck they are in the form in Yang, Chen, Wu, and Sun. Only other thing I can say is I was trained in Traditional Yang, per my shifu I am 6th generation. Per Yang family, I don't do Yang style, per me. I don't do Yang style anymore

My Chen also was either from Chen Zhenglei, or one of his students. Currently working with a gentleman who has trained with Chen Xiaowang and Chen Xiaoxing

The way my teachers taught is how it works for me

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tung Hu Ling, son of Tung Ying Chieh

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like this Taiji application a lot.

 

[windwalker099]

My Chen also was either from Chen Zhenglei, or one of his students. Currently working with a gentleman who has trained with Chen Xiaowang and Chen Xiaoxing

You practice both styles Chen, and Tung ?

 

[Xue Sheng]

You practice both styles Chen, and Tung ?

No I trained both Yang and Chen. My Shifu did not call it Tung style he called in Yang Style as did his shifu. There was a Tung Ying Chieh form but it was one of the 2 fast forms

I trained a lot more Yang then Chen. Chen I only did the 18, Loajia Yilu, silk reeling, and push hands. Yang I did everything my shifu taught. The only thing I did not finish was the pole, started, never finished. I also did some Wu and a dash of Sun, still do a short (non-traditional) Sun form

Have Xingyiquan too, even a bit of Bagua, and dabbled in a few other things to. Been at CMA for a bit over 33 years (30 included Yang), been training martial arts for over 50 years

 

[Appledog]

But in Taijiquan, if done correctly, IMO, it is next to impossible to answer the question, what would a Taiji person do if I do 'A'..... from a taijiquan perspective it all depends on the force/energy/strength being used by the aggressor. Not all punches, even though they can be catagorized as a straight punch, a jab, uppercut, or hook, are the same. Therefore the response/defense is not the same.

It is very hard for me to use my Taijiquan, because I only use it when I least expected it. And when I use it, not even I know what I will be doing. Often, I do not even know what I am doing while I am doing it. However, I experience something strange -- Almost like a weightless motion, or a void of motion, and instead the entire universe bends around my body to snap into the correct position. I often say it is like two magnets snapping together but thats not the right analogy somehow. Therefore, as I have experienced, you can only ever teach people who have the correct morality and the correct intention. Because it is solely based on the intention and morality that the action will be destructive or not. If you allow your mind to wander while training and a wayward thought or a devilish thought appears, you will hurt someone.