Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Yep, they are built like sprinters. The muscles that you see will naturally develop that way as they are used for running. Once a person understands what's needed then they can lift weights according to what improves the function of sprinting. If you want a sprinter's body then do a bunch of sprints for 3 to 6 years.Olympic sprinters.......
View attachment 28129
These guys aren't fighters though. Their speed worries are pretty simple compared to a combat athlete. They literally have one direction to worry about, and they just go.Olympic sprinters.......
View attachment 28129
Well, I think we established muscle mass doesn't mean it's fast muscle mass.
Right?
Then let's just do that. The statement that muscle mass does not equal fast twitch muscle mass is 100% true and correct. This is a well established fact.Wrong.
The thing is, as I've been saying, you don't get big like that without a combination of very unusual genetics, fanatic, specialized training, and (almost always) steroids. In the case of the chicken leg dude, it's just the super specialized training, with maybe some freakish genetics on top. So, it's close to irrelevant to tell martial artists who don't have those funky genetics and don't juice that weight lifting will make you slow, inflexible, or muscle bound. If you tell them they need to do well balanced, full body, strength training then there's essentially no risk they'll turn out this way.View attachment 28127
My thoughts on body building and muscles. Build muscle according to function of the activity. Failure to do so may cause a decrease in performance. By the way, I'm not sure if that picture has been edited, but I've seen people like this in real life.
View attachment 28128
Does anyone really think that the muscles in his legs will make him a faster or slower runner?
Muscles get in the way. You can get stronger without getting bigger.
Maybe this guy is the exception? Probably not
Full video.
Maybe this?
Sure, it's true that muscle mass is not 100% fast twitch fiber, but as I said in another post, that's mostly irrelevant on the individual level. You've got the genes that you were born with and we haven't gotten gene therapy anywhere near a point where that's going to change any time soon. You can have more or less muscle, and your training can have a small impact on fiber type distribution, but for the most part that's where things sit on an individual level. Even if you're genetically predisposed to have a higher than average ratio of slow twitch fibers your type I fibers will still be stronger if you lift weights, as will your type IIa & b fibers, and weight training may shift some of your type IIa fibers to type IIb. Barring unlikely extremes, more muscle, gained from a quality, full body, balanced, weight lifting program is very unlikely to make you slower, unless you have very unusual genes.Then let's just do that. The statement that muscle mass does not equal fast twitch muscle mass is 100% true and correct. This is a well established fact.
Most muscles contain a mixture of both, but the percent of each varies and can be changed somewhat by training. There are some muscle groups, such as those in the back that maintain posture, which are almost entirely slow twitch muscle. And some, such as those that control eye movement, that are almost entirely fast twitch.
Not with the guy I knew in college. He only worked out the upper part of the body lol. I still see the same thing in the gym today. People get super focus and sometimes that puts them on a singular track. It always amazes me. That's my normal gym entertainment. There's one guy who is big, he must be about 6'5". My first thought is usually "Man that guy is big." My second thought "I wonder if I could beat him in the fight." lol go figure. Out of all of the people there it's the biggest one that I want to throw fist with. The MMA guy however is my same size. He hits hard. My thoughts about that is "I don't want to get hit full force with those punches." My second thought is "Train harder" lol.In the case of the chicken leg dude, it's just the super specialized training, with maybe some freakish genetics on top
The reason why I post pictures of body builders is because there seems to be an assumption that more muscle = better performance and that's not true. Blindly increasing size without understanding the muscles involved in the function is just a waste of time in terms of martial arts and any physical activity.The thing is, as I've been saying, you don't get big like that without a combination of very unusual genetics, fanatic, specialized training, and (almost always) steroids.
I agree with this as strength training (from how I understand it ) is different then body building (muscle building) where the focus is often on trying to get the muscles bigger. Strength training often focuses on function, which is why I prefer strength training over body building. Strength training can be done with or without weights. Body building? well not so much.If you tell them they need to do well balanced, full body, strength training then there's essentially no risk they'll turn out this way.
The OP has red flags that make me think that he's focused on getting bigger. Here's what I see from the OP:You're pointing at a thing (getting enormously muscular) that isn't what the OP was talking about and that isn't what the vast majority of people doing martial arts have any interest in, and saying that it's likely to happen.
Not with the guy I knew in college. He only worked out the upper part of the body lol.
I'm just now getting to this, and much of what I'm about to say may have already been said by others. I'll try to keep my thoughts organized, but it's late and I'm tired, and that's when my brain has the least cohesive chain of thinking.Hi. I am writing an article on the attitudes towards physical strength in martial arts, and would like to get your perspective on this issue (if it is an issue, I personally feel that it is) in martial arts, since you're all much more experienced than me. Every since I started training, I saw that there were many students and professors alike that seemed to have a sort of chip on their shoulders when it came to physical strength. I specifically noticed this in traditional martial arts; while my professors in Jiujitsu seemed to have an issue with strong people, my professors in more modern arts and combat sports seemed to lean towards it. This issue was most prevalent during my fleeting time in Shorinji Kempo, and it was one of the main reasons I quit.
People there seemed to have this sense of superiority towards me because I spend a lot of time working out at the gym and lifting weights, and many jokes and mockery and criticism by both students and senseis aside at people who spend their time training at the gym. Much of it came from the idea that using strength to fight was brutish and perhaps even a little uneducated or simply stupid. Although modern combat sports and martial arts tend to supplement (and in some cases even rely on) strength training for their techniques, this is not to say that they are bereft of such attitudes. I have come across one or two individuals that have this mentality of superiority in my BJJ gym too, and there is even the running joke amongst the online BJJ community where calling someone strong is an insult in a way, as they have no technique worthy of a compliment.
Personally however, I dislike this mentality a lot. I would even go as far as to argue that strength is a technique too - I wasn't born with my strength, and I worked a very long time to get to the level I am in terms of weightlifting today. If it just so happens that it helps me against my opponent, of course I'll use it. I think it is very important to incorporate strength training, whether traditional iron-body type stuff, or modern muscular hypertrophy and development. What are your thoughts on this?
I don't think the premise was that martial arts has a distaste, but that a lot of martial artists (especially instructors or promoters) do.You initial premise - that MA has a "distaste" for strength is not just wrong, it's completely ridiculous.
OK, I'll grant that. Since MA isn't a living thing, it can't have a taste, distaste, preference, or anything of the sort. I did think the context made the intent of the statement clear.I don't think the premise was that martial arts has a distaste, but that a lot of martial artists (especially instructors or promoters) do.
I guess I think limiting your training to upper body only is super specialized (or perhaps more accurately, hyper-focused) training. In general, most people who just work the upper body are trying to achieve an aesthetic that appeals to them. They aren't interested in functional strength, or if they are, it takes a big back seat to their desire to achieve a particular look. They probably also want to do as little work as possible to get that look. Those who say otherwise are either fooling themselves of tragically ignorant.Not with the guy I knew in college. He only worked out the upper part of the body lol. I still see the same thing in the gym today. People get super focus and sometimes that puts them on a singular track. It always amazes me.
I find it to be more common that someone will be told not to weight lift because it will make them slow, than it is for them to be told, "Hey, you need to do follow a good, full body training protocol so that you get the best results for your martial arts". A poor weight lifting routine isn't as efficient as a good one but it's unlikely to produce big and slow, unless the person is genetically unusual and probably juicing to boot. I think it far more likely that someone needs to be told to get good sleep, take enough rest days to recover, and eat enough quality food, than that they need to be told they're going to get too big. Too big just doesn't happen to people who aren't bodybuilders and it doesn't happen for a lot of people who really want and try to be bodybuilders.The reason why I post pictures of body builders is because there seems to be an assumption that more muscle = better performance and that's not true. Blindly increasing size without understanding the muscles involved in the function is just a waste of time in terms of martial arts and any physical activity.
Yeah, there's a lot of lore and myth on this front, but in general, body builders are usually focused on appearance goals rather than functional goals. A lot of them over train, a lot of them hyper focus on things they think will make them look "better". As I keep saying (and I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse), even those who train like body builders don't tend to get all that big, the ones who do are just super obvious, because they stand out, because most people don't get that big. (Horse puree time now) No matter what your training protocol, the average person, even the slightly unusual person, won't get bodybuilder big, even if they train just like a Mr. Olympia, including the steroids.I agree with this as strength training (from how I understand it ) is different then body building (muscle building) where the focus is often on trying to get the muscles bigger. Strength training often focuses on function, which is why I prefer strength training over body building. Strength training can be done with or without weights. Body building? well not so much.
You may be right about this but I'm not going to try to tease out whether he's just driven to succeed, if he's got a case of bigorexia, or something else. I'm not qualified to make that call or do anything about it.The OP has red flags that make me think that he's focused on getting bigger.
There are a lot of benefits to bigger for fighting, up to a point, depending on your goals. As you say, weight classes can make it somewhat irrelevant, unless you are going to be fighting in the top weight class regardless.So what is real issue for the OP? Being bigger? or being stronger? I honestly think being Bigger is what he wants.
1. Every martial artists and fighter that I know want to be stronger. That has never been an issue.
2. Some people think being stronger means being bigger which is where the discussion is now.
LOLThese guys aren't fighters though. Their speed worries are pretty simple compared to a combat athlete. They literally have one direction to worry about, and they just go.
In MMA, you need to be able to move in any direction, at any time, fast. And you don't need a huge amount of muscle to KO somebody, just enough force. On the ground, it's a different story: oxygen wins.
So...there does seem to be a trade off, or something, between musculature and combat effectiveness. Let's face it, most great MMA guys are not supermen in the body building department. They're regular guys, some tone, some not, but the key to winning (to me at least) always seems to be their speed not their force.
Is that all? Do you have anything of substance to add?
Isn't everything physics?
Well, I think we established muscle mass doesn't mean it's fast muscle mass.
Right?
Genuine question, not meant to nitpick spelling but just curious. In America it's spelled Kinesiology, and spelling it kenesiology looks really weird to me. Was that a typo, or is the word spelled differently in Australia?No.
In this specific case it is kenesiology.
I've encountered this attitude before both in real life and online, even occasionally on this forum. I won't say it's super common, but it definitely does exist.OK, I'll grant that. Since MA isn't a living thing, it can't have a taste, distaste, preference, or anything of the sort. I did think the context made the intent of the statement clear.
However, this changes nothing. The premise is ridiculous. I am quite confident that no meaningful number of competent practitioners, instructors, or promoters, can be found who will seriously say they don't think strength is good.
If further clarification is needed, just let me know.