I think im going to have to stop strength training

[Buka]

What I think most people misunderstand about strength training is - an instructor has to know how to teach somebody how they can utilize their strength within their Martial Art framework. Not everybody can.

Strength is good, speed is good. Timing, patience and not giving a damn about who or what you're fighting is better.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Technique overcomes brute force.

Whether you can use your

- head lock to tap out your opponent in the ground game depends on how strong your head lock is.
- leg twist to hurt your opponent's knee joint depends on how strong your leg twist is.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hey there @JowGaWolf, I know you and I tend to go around and around on this subject when it comes up and I know I express my opinions pretty bluntly on the topic.

My wife is more blunt than you so I honestly don't think you are blunt. You just speak your mind straight forward.

So, what muscles can't be trained with machine weights that are needed for horse stance?

The only way for me to honestly answer this question is to simply show you what I do when I train my horse stance. This way you can see what types of movement I do

Why do you think you need to be in the same structure in order to strengthen the same muscles? What part of taking a muscle through its full range of anatomically appropriate movement (or something close to it - certainly a range that encompasses the entirety of the range in which a horse stance takes place) is lacking from a strength building perspective?

Because it's not just one muscle that plays a part in how I train the horse stance. I offer this challenge to anyone interested in knowing what the difference is. The challenge can be for a month and at the end of the month we can see if the weight lifting with the legs can perform the same as my horse stance work out. The only rule is that those who believe that weight lifting on the legs is a good substitute cannot train horse stance for a month and I cannot train my legs with weights for a month.

Here's the challenge.
If you believe that doing weight lifting training can be a substitute for horse stance training, then your legs can only consist of lifting weights to make your legs stronger. I will only do horse stance training and not train my legs with weights. This includes weighted squats of any type. After a month those who only train with weights can see if they can do my training. If you are correct about muscle development then you should be able to either keep up or out perform me because weights would allow you to build more strength than me just using my body weight. Any takers? Anyone interested in getting this question answered?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I do say that it's faster, safer, and more efficient to do a quality weight lifting routine and that there's a cap to how strong someone can practically get without using weights or some form of significant and increasable resistance.

I don't know about faster, safer, and more efficient. Efficient is something of context. So is safer.

If that's the case, and they really like their methods and/or really dislike lifting weights, then that's great, but it's still a more round about approach, can be more subject to greater risk of injury, and shouldn't be represented as the best approach.

There is always risk in movement. I tore my calf muscle while jumping rope, .

 

[MetalBoar]

The only way for me to honestly answer this question is to simply show you what I do when I train my horse stance. This way you can see what types of movement I do

If you can put up a video that explains your views on this I'd be interested in seeing it. If it needs to be in person, I might be in Atlanta (I think that's where you are?) in the late summer this year.

Here's the challenge.
If you believe that doing weight lifting training can be a substitute for horse stance training, then your legs can only consist of lifting weights to make your legs stronger. I will only do horse stance training and not train my legs with weights. This includes weighted squats of any type. After a month those who only train with weights can see if they can do my training. If you are correct about muscle development then you should be able to either keep up or out perform me because weights would allow you to build more strength than me just using my body weight. Any takers? Anyone interested in getting this question answered?

I'm all up for this sort of thing, but we should structure it so that we get useful data.

As I said in an earlier post, practical application of strength is the combination of strength and skill. If we were to test this we'd need to pick a physical activity that neither of us has developed skill with yet and then I would train skill and strength for that activity separately and you'd train them in a combined fashion. We'd really need it to be more than 30 days for it to be particularly meaningful, even pretty basic motor skills can take several weeks to achieve basic proficiency. We should also track how long we each spend on our training as one of my main arguments is that strength training is more efficient. For example, at present I spend less than 30 minutes a week doing weight lifting and that's been largely true for more than a decade.

Ideally we should try to recruit at least 198 other people so we can have an A group of 100 doing it my way and a B group of 100 doing it yours. Citizen science is on the rise and the Time Mold Slime Mold folks got over 200 people to sign up to eat nothing but potatoes for 4 weeks (and document the whole thing), so maybe we could too.

I'm all in if we can get some people together!

 

[MetalBoar]

I don't know about faster, safer, and more efficient. Efficient is something of context. So is safer.


There is always risk in movement. I tore my calf muscle while jumping rope, .

Sure, definitions and context are important. I mean that a well designed strength training program takes less than 30 minutes a week (if the person being trained has the grit for it). All other time can be spent directly on skill development. Unless someone is so short on time that they only have those 30 minutes in total, that generally means that both strength gains and skill gains happen at a faster rate (both in terms of time spent and time elapsed) than if the activities are combined.

There is risk and then there's risk. I think we'd all agree that rugby is riskier than tennis and that tennis is riskier than walking. The statistics show that weight lifting is safer than just about any other sport, and that includes things like competitive weight lifting where there is a greater temptation to engage in risky behavior to gain advantage. Punching with weights in your hands or on your arms is riskier than punching empty handed, all other things being equal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For example, at present I spend less than 30 minutes a week doing weight lifting and that's been largely true for more than a decade.

This is too short for me. Even for my own weight lifting training. Muscle can work longer as it gets stronger and I'll be restricting that growth by limiting myself in that way. The minimum that I would need is 30 minutes a day and that includes the necessary rest periods during exercise to allow muscle recovery.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I mean that a well designed strength training program takes less than 30 minutes a week

P90x is a well designed strength program that takes a hour a day. They have a 30 minute a day program but it's extreme. I don't see how 4 minutes a day would be considered good training time. An hour a day is good. 30 minutes a day is doable. If you need more than a day to recover from pushing weight then just factor that in. If my workout has a faster recovery time then I should be able to use that benefit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All other time can be spent directly on skill development. Unless someone is so short on time that they only have those 30 minutes in total, that generally means that both strength gains and skill gains happen at a faster rate (both in terms of time spent and time elapsed) than if the activities are combined.

This is also a problem for me because my skills training and strength training are integrated. I train skills and strength with the same motion. If I do my forms then strength is trained within the forms. If I train footwork then strength is trained with the movement of my footwork.

At the moment I have a sore throat that I'm nursing. But once I'm well I can show you some universal techniques and how I train them. It will be things like jabs , kicks, and footwork. You can try them if you like so you can feel where the strength part comes in.

 

[MetalBoar]

This is too short for me. Even for my own weight lifting training. Muscle can work longer as it gets stronger and I'll be restricting that growth by limiting myself in that way. The minimum that I would need is 30 minutes a day and that includes the necessary rest periods during exercise to allow muscle recovery.

You can work harder or you can work longer. The research generally indicates that both produce results if you're using a good protocol, though there are some benefits to working with higher relative resistance that might not be realized by all high volume programs.

For stimulating strength gains there is no need for multiple sets or sessions in a day if you train with sufficient intensity the first time. The "sufficient intensity" is the key piece of that statement and is also why I say you can only train this little (and get good results) if you have the grit for it. I don't have the grit for volume training, and some people don't have the grit to push themselves as close to their limit as is needed to train the way I do. This isn't a judgment statement, it's more a matter of personal preference, as long as someone has the grit to do one of the various things that works they're succeeding in my book.

 

[MetalBoar]

P90x is a well designed strength program that takes a hour a day. They have a 30 minute a day program but it's extreme. I don't see how 4 minutes a day would be considered good training time. An hour a day is good. 30 minutes a day is doable. If you need more than a day to recover from pushing weight then just factor that in. If my workout has a faster recovery time then I should be able to use that benefit.

I don't do 4 minutes a day, I do one full body, extremely high intensity, strength training workout once a week that's less than 30 minutes. The rest of the week I do MA drills and/or light body weight stuff to keep myself mobile. I don't consider any of that to be strength training, but some people might.

Edit to add: I also meant to say that P90x is a combination of strength and cardio (and maybe flexibility too?). Cardio is a whole other discussion, but trying to do all of it together definitely increases your time requirements a lot.

 

[MetalBoar]

This is also a problem for me because my skills training and strength training are integrated. I train skills and strength with the same motion. If I do my forms then strength is trained within the forms. If I train footwork then strength is trained with the movement of my footwork.

At the moment I have a sore throat that I'm nursing. But once I'm well I can show you some universal techniques and how I train them. It will be things like jabs , kicks, and footwork. You can try them if you like so you can feel where the strength part comes in.

That would be great, I'd love to see them! I don't think I can say a lot more of value without having a more clear example of what you're doing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That would be great, I'd love to see them! I don't think I can say a lot more of value without having a more clear example of what you're doing.

I think the strength training that JowGaWolf is talking about and what you are talking about are 2 different things.

This is what I call "strength training". The purpose is to develop a certain strength that is needed in MA.

 

[MetalBoar]

I think the strength training that JowGaWolf is talking about and what you are talking about are 2 different things.

This is what I call "strength training". The purpose is to develop a certain strength that is needed in MA.



View attachment 29564

Thanks for sharing this video!

So, for me, I'd call this a drill if it's useful for doing solo training of that movement/technique (which I assume it is). It's a drill that's probably going to increase strength to some degree, and depending on an individual's baseline strength, it might increase their strength a lot, but there's an upper limit to what can be achieved without losing some, or all, of its skill building characteristics and/or at the expense of significantly increased time. In order for it to be effective for strength training in the medium/long run, or for individuals who come to it with an already high level of strength, you need to be able to increase the muscular effort involved if you're going to stimulate an adaptive response. Even if that's as simple as sliding Olympic weight plates down the pole, at some point you will likely have to increase the resistance to a point where this no longer serves the skill development portion of this movement as well as the lower resistance did.

Since I don't see any muscles being trained by this movement that can't be trained with machine or free weights, I would prefer to focus on the drill/skill development aspect, with the ideal weight for that purpose, rather than try to chase a higher weight or a high volume to try to maintain a sufficient stimulus to promote strength gains. I can train all of those muscles with a very small time commitment using standard strength training movements, so I don't see the benefit to diluting either my strength training, nor my skill development, by trying to combine the two - I lift weights as the primary means of strength development and do drills to improve skills, even if those drills might have some relatively small impact in improving my strength.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Whether you can use your

- head lock to tap out your opponent in the ground game depends on how strong your head lock is.
- leg twist to hurt your opponent's knee joint depends on how strong your leg twist is.

I'm going to have to disagree with this.

A properly applied twisting leg lock requires very little strength to inflict serious damage. There's a reason why 154 pound Genki Sudo was able to defeat 378 pound Butterbean with a heel hook (twisting leg lock). I doubt that he could have managed any other submission given the size and strength disparity.

As far as headlocks - you're not going to make any competent ground grappler tap just by squeezing the head. In order to make the headlock into a real submission, you have to use it as the basis for a neck crank, chest compression, or choke. Strength definitely helps with all of those, but technique matters just as much.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As far as headlocks - you're not going to make any competent ground grappler tap just by squeezing the head.

Yep. I agree. Just from experience there have been things where I tried to muscle through a technique even when I knew I had the technique wrong. I thought that if I just squeeze harder then that will make up for the bad lock that I had. The only thing that happened was the technique failed and I got tired, then my sparring partner slid out of the head lock. Good technique is a strength multiplier. This is why I tell student to be gentle when learning how to apply wrist locks. It doesn't take much strength to lock the wrist when the technique is correct. It doesn't take much to destroy the joint when the technique is good.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Technique is the 50%. Ability is the other 50%. Technique is how to achieve a certain stage. Ability is how to finish after that stage has been achieved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I thought that if I just squeeze harder then that will make up for the bad lock that I had. The only thing that happened was the technique failed and I got tired, then my sparring partner slid out of the head lock.

Of course you need to have a good head lock position first. You can head lock on your opponent's

1. neck,
2. jaw,
3. forehead (best position).

IMO, 1 < 2 < 3.

Try and see if you can do this.

 

[Alan0354]

So schedule is crazy. I'm lucky to squeeze in my martial arts solo training and classes, but with the addition of strength training recently its getting to be too much. I Like the results I have got, but it's literally a battle for time. Some days I have to decide between the two because I don't have time for both. Strength training is good but its a supplement to my training, my art means more to me and I don't feel right chosing between it and lifting on some days. The art matters way more to me. I have gotten good gains from the strength work and I hope I get to keep them, but I'm only gonna have the time to train kali and not do my supplemental strength stuff. Is it possible to gain strength through just my kali training? We do alot of stick work, but no calisthenics or anything like that. But in order to continue to keep moving forward in my skills I have to get rid of the lifting. So for now just pure technical training.

Strength training is VERY IMPORTANT for MA. I would cut down a little on MA and put the time in strength.