The distaste for strength in martial arts

[skribs]

None of this will help a person learn Jow Ga. This is strength building that's not suitable for Jow Ga. He's strong butnot withing the right context for Jow Ga. None of this will make Jow Ga techniques stronger. There's a reason why the best fighters don't look like this.

Why wouldn't it make his Jow Ga stronger? What would?

 

[JowGaWolf]

haven't heard anyone say that Mr. Tyson was too big or too muscular to box

His build is better suited for boxing than Jow Ga,. In Jow Ga you have to be big with your movements. Mike Tyson was an inside fighter he made a lot of use of that short range power. His shoulders look tight to me. He would have to do arm circles in order for me to see what type of flexibility he has.

He wouldn't have problems with the shuffling that Jow Ga does. I think a younger Tyson would do better in Jow Ga. He looks like he had more flexibility in those shoulders when he was in the olympics.

 

[MetalBoar]

@MetalBoar This is what I'm talking about:

Yep, I'm familiar with the type. That dude has some freaky genetics and I'd bet the entirety of my bank account he's juicing. There are thousands of guys in the bodybuilding world who'd kill to be that big and are putting in huge amounts of work, many of them taking roids, and still aren't achieving anything like his size. I'm sure if he put work in to increasing his flexibility it would be better, but with the structure his genes have given him he's not ever going to be super flexible, especially carrying that much muscle.

Between us we might have a couple of distant acquaintances who could get that big if they really worked at it and had "help". Over 20 years of very dedicated (drug free) weight lifting and I'm a twig in comparison to that guy. Essentially no one has to worry about that from weight lifting. In the modern world, computer use and a sedentary lifestyle are the things that are going to destroy their flexibility.

 

[skribs]

Yep, I'm familiar with the type. That dude has some freaky genetics and I'd bet the entirety of my bank account he's juicing. There are thousands of guys in the bodybuilding world who'd kill to be that big and are putting in huge amounts of work, many of them taking roids, and still aren't achieving anything like his size. I'm sure if he put work in to increasing his flexibility it would be better, but with the structure his genes have given him he's not ever going to be super flexible, especially carrying that much muscle.

Between us we might have a couple of distant acquaintances who could get that big if they really worked at it and had "help". Over 20 years of very dedicated (drug free) weight lifting and I'm a twig in comparison to that guy. Essentially no one has to worry about that from weight lifting. In the modern world, computer use and a sedentary lifestyle are the things that are going to destroy their flexibility.

Like I said, this is "theory" in which the application is a very select few individuals who are extreme outliers. There's always some fact behind a myth.

 

[Cynik75]

As we say in Poland: strenght * strenght = technique.

 

[Ivan]

Like what is the reason you've been telling people why you weight lift?

Well to be the “big guy”. But it certainly helps. Especially in striking as it facilitates me to dominate the space. I’m very good at cutting off rings and staying in the centre, as well as pressuring forwards. It’s not just the strength that helps but the size too - it really puts a lot of stress on some opponents and makes me seem more intimidating than I really am. Of course, much more experienced opponents might not care, but that doesn’t mean people should completely forego it.

 

[Ivan]

Strength multiplies technique. If you have only strength and no technique, then it doesn't matter how strong you are. If you have only technique and no strength, it doesn't matter how good you are. You're probably not going to win much.

With that said, being stronger does tend to lead to people cutting corners in training, often unintentionally. If you are stronger than your training partners, you can often succeed against them by using strength instead of technique. Your success reinforces that your technique is "correct", so you don't see much reason to improve it.

As an example, let's use the above formula. Strength multiplies technique. If you need an 8 in order to be successful, and you have 3 strength and 3 technique, then you have 9 technique and will succeed. If you have 5 strength, you only need 2 technique to succeed, and so you will convince yourself that your technique is good, because it succeeded, even though it is worse than the other person.

In order to fix this, one must consciously assess themselves whether they're using strength or technique, and when technique can be improved even if they already succeeded with it. Then you run into the other problem, which is adding strength back in, when you've built a habit of keeping it in reserve.

There is another aspect. I see this question on reddit every once in a while: "If a bigger/stronger person will beat a smaller/weaker person, what is the point of training martial arts?" You'll see any art that includes grappling (everything from aikido to BJJ) will claim to work on bigger, stronger opponents. The reality is that it's going to be very difficult, especially if they have any idea how to fight. But we also don't want to discourage people from training. I think there's a fine line between being realistic and turning people away.

I certainly agree with this. I find it very difficult in BJJ to not just straight up bench press my opponents off of me from side control. I like smaller and faster opponents because I can feel the “pressure” they exert through technique rather than force.

That being said, strength also opens up a lot of alleyways that wouldn’t be there if I didn’t have my level of it. For example, it helps keep me on my feet when someone is attempting to sweep me, or defend armbars and also allows me to absorb shots with my body in striking.

My reasoning in my original post in which I say that strength is a form of technique is that anyone can attain at the very least some level of it. Whether you’re a woman or an old man, there is always something you can do that will make you physically stronger and give you an advantage.

 

[Ivan]

If the person builds strength in the context that it must be used then none of this will happen. Just like everything else strength building is not a one size fits all. It must always be developed within the context that it will be used for it to be of benefit that specific activity.

I would agree to some extent but that’s not necessarily the case. I don’t need to train my biceps in a specific way to help me defend armbars, or to help lift bigger weights. Regardless of your goal, bicep curls will still get you there.

I think this only applies to muscles that are there to absorb strikes, or stabilisers. For example, I like to slam medicine balls against my ribs and stomach to get me used to tightening my core as much as I can on impact. But deadlifting will help me build a strong trunk and base and back just as much as any grappling exercises for that specific muscle group.

 

[Ivan]

I don't think there are martial artists in the weigh room saying weight training isn't important. Just like I don't think there are weight lifters in the martial arts room saying technique isn't important.

Do you guys remember that guy we had on this forum about a year ago who said his aim was to become so physically strong and big that no technique would work on him xD

 

[Ivan]

None of this will help a person learn Jow Ga. This is strength building that's not suitable for Jow Ga. He's strong butnot withing the right context for Jow Ga. None of this will make Jow Ga techniques stronger. There's a reason why the best fighters don't look like this.
View attachment 28116

Some of them do look like that, they just haven’t trained in Jow Ga. Look at Liston, Tyson, Brock Lesnar, Holyfield. Brock Lesnar specifically was bigger than Arnold I believe.

 

[Ivan]

Yep, I'm familiar with the type. That dude has some freaky genetics and I'd bet the entirety of my bank account he's juicing. There are thousands of guys in the bodybuilding world who'd kill to be that big and are putting in huge amounts of work, many of them taking roids, and still aren't achieving anything like his size.

Unfortunately, the social media and fitness industry have skewed people’s perspectives on body types that are naturally attainable and those that are not. Having done bodybuilding and powerlifting type training for 5 years, I am nowhere even close to such levels of hypertrophy, but I do not aim to be either.

 

[drop bear]

The thing is even strength sports are technique driven. You can't be a power lifter on strength alone.

So the dichotomy is that to harness strength the most effectively you have to not use it. Instead relying on good form.

 

[Unkogami]

...

About the only groups that I've never heard complain about weight lifting are grapplers (not counting Aikido) and western fencers,......

You're not going to hear that nonsense from many wrestlers.

 

[Unkogami]

.....

So the dichotomy is that to harness strength the most effectively you have to not use it. Instead relying on good form.

????????????????

How about both?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One of my friends got rejected from a fencing camp back in senior year of HS because he was "too muscular". He was a foil fencer and they apparently thought he must be a slow fencer and he wouldn't have the flexibility needed because of it. It's been a decade so don't remember specifically, but I'd be surprised if they didn't also think he was bruteforcing his techniques.

This happened before they got to the actual training portion of tryouts, just conditioning. He conditioned too well? And he was far from what any of us would consider if we thought "too big for martial arts", but most fencers don't have much muscle. The stigma is real.

 

[Unkogami]

As we say in Poland: strenght * strenght = technique.

Is that how everyone in Poland spells "strength"?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Some of them do look like that, they just haven’t trained in Jow Ga. Look at Liston, Tyson, Brock Lesnar, Holyfield. Brock Lesnar specifically was bigger than Arnold I believe.

I think you are making the assumption that they didn't develop the skill before the muscle. You seem to put muscle before the skill building and if you look at their younger pictures you will see that it was the opposite. With the exception of Arnold. You look at the end result of what they look and seem to make assumptions. That the end game was to get bigger to be a better fighter /wrestler. The guys you named were dedicated to training skills and conditioning for the sport that they were involved in. To them the focus wasn't about getting bigger. Take a look at Brock Lesnar pre WWE

You may not notice, but when you talk about your own skills, you tend to "hang your hat" on things like, I'm stronger, I hit harder, I can knock someone out. I have yet to hear you state that you out skill someone. I hit like a truck but you'll always hear me talk about technique and that I'm working on my technique or working on endurance and it seems that you often fall back to the physical strength when things don't go your way.

What I have heard a lot of from you is people beating you with skill and not muscle. Maybe it's something you should reflect on.

 

[O'Malley]

Hi. I am writing an article on the attitudes towards physical strength in martial arts, and would like to get your perspective on this issue (if it is an issue, I personally feel that it is) in martial arts, since you're all much more experienced than me. Every since I started training, I saw that there were many students and professors alike that seemed to have a sort of chip on their shoulders when it came to physical strength. I specifically noticed this in traditional martial arts; while my professors in Jiujitsu seemed to have an issue with strong people, my professors in more modern arts and combat sports seemed to lean towards it. This issue was most prevalent during my fleeting time in Shorinji Kempo, and it was one of the main reasons I quit.

People there seemed to have this sense of superiority towards me because I spend a lot of time working out at the gym and lifting weights, and many jokes and mockery and criticism by both students and senseis aside at people who spend their time training at the gym. Much of it came from the idea that using strength to fight was brutish and perhaps even a little uneducated or simply stupid. Although modern combat sports and martial arts tend to supplement (and in some cases even rely on) strength training for their techniques, this is not to say that they are bereft of such attitudes. I have come across one or two individuals that have this mentality of superiority in my BJJ gym too, and there is even the running joke amongst the online BJJ community where calling someone strong is an insult in a way, as they have no technique worthy of a compliment.

Personally however, I dislike this mentality a lot. I would even go as far as to argue that strength is a technique too - I wasn't born with my strength, and I worked a very long time to get to the level I am in terms of weightlifting today. If it just so happens that it helps me against my opponent, of course I'll use it. I think it is very important to incorporate strength training, whether traditional iron-body type stuff, or modern muscular hypertrophy and development. What are your thoughts on this?

If you beat the other guys at your BJJ gym, the smart ones will change their minds. The stupid ones will give you easy rolls to improve your technique.

 

[Cynik75]

Is that how everyone in Poland spells "strength"?

No. Only me.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Why wouldn't it make his Jow Ga stronger? What would?

I have an opinion on this.

Bigger means slower. So all that extra mass isn't very helpful if it makes you slow enough that someone else who is smaller can dance around you, checking you at will.

So there's a balance somewhere between muscle mass and speed, and sure you can train to max out your own agility, but even then, if someone is smaller but a little faster that can make all the difference, even if you're stronger. I speak from experience.

In the weight room, or in front of a mirror, speed doesn't matter. Sparring, competing, its critical.