The Destroyer Style

I do not have any belts or certifacations. That doesn't make what I know any less valuble. If you are concerned with belt and social status. You are concerned with pride. I don't really care what people think about me at the end of the day. Living threw a life or death situation is the only thing that matters. Some people don't have a life time to learn how to defend themselves. While you worry about rank, a real person who fights in life or death situations worries about survival. Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.


Cody

So is it safe for me to read this as you have limited training in the arts that you listed, the ones that you're basing this "Destroyer Style" off of? While I myself, put rank on the back burner, and focus more on learning and improving myself, I also feel that the person who is teaching, whatever it may be, should have a solid enough background, and IMHO, a few months here and there, with nothing really solid to back it up, is not only deceiving the people you teach, but also yourself.

I mean, this would be like a white belt in Kenpo taking classes for 3 mos. and then deciding that he's learned enough, runs out and starts teaching others. I'm sorry, but with that little amount of time, he's not going to be teaching much.
 
A true sucker punch IS defendable... by using situational awareness. ;) The absolute first thing that must be taught in a self defense class is being aware of your surroundings, obeying the rule of the three stupids, putting forth an aura of not being a victim... hell, you could almost spend a year teaching that without ever getting into physical technique.

There are, quite literally, hundreds of years worth of martial arts experience bound up in the membership here at Martial Talk. You'll find that you'll have to be on top of your game to offer anything "new" here but if you are truly sincere and passionate about what you're doing most folks here will be willing to give good, honest feedback.

Correct on both parts of your post. To address the first part....if the punch was seen, but it was late, it is possible to defend, but it'll most likely be a flinch response on our part, that "Oh ****!" moment, where something like Tony Blauers Spear will come into play.

As for the second part of your post...I couldn't agree more. There're a ton of great people here, with alot of skill, and lots of good background in training. But yes, the 'new' stuff...well, alot of what I've seen isn't so much new, but same old stuff, much of which can be found in other arts, but re-packaged as if it was something new. *shrug*
 
I'm going to comment on both of these posts. Here goes....


I think its only fair to question, and I don't want to invent something, just take what is useful for (a certain kind of person from each style.)

But actually, that is what you have done.


The styles I have taken don't have any help for people who are weaker, or handicapp.

So, there are no arts that can be done by a smaller, 'weaker' person? I beg to differ. The handicap....well, depending on what it is, will depend on what that person can do anyways. If they're confined to a wheelchair, anything involving kicks is out. However, hand techs. can be modified for that purpose.


That is why I want to make this. My experience is one year in a MMA class, There I learned Jujitsu, Boxing, Mauy Thai/Kick boxing. I was under a year in Tae Kwon Do, those are all that are on record. I also learned Kung Fu, and Military tactics from a friend, who I call my uncle. He started me thinking differently when I was twelve years old. Thats why I say I have been working on it for so long. I'm not saying I am a master. I am just saying I know enough to at least give someone a way to protect themselves.

IIRC, I touched on this in another post, but I'll do it again here. I do not feel that we should have to train for 30 years before we can use our art, but....we need to have a solid foundation in order for us to base our material on. A year in the average MA class, will most likely be beginner level, maybe just touching on intermediate. You will still be limited as to what you can do and teach.



The best way to do that is to mix all these together for now.

So by mixing them all together, technically you're creating something new. I mix a Kenpo and Arnis tech. together, but I'm not running around trying to create something 'new'. Its still 2 seperate arts.


If later I learn something more useful I will add it as well. If you know of the perfect martial art I would really like to know it. I have always been taught that if you can't change and adapt in fighting you will never learn anything.

But the main difference is, people need to have a foundation first. Gotta walk before you run.



Anyone who can throw a jab can fight. All martial arts do is show them how to do it more effectively.

My wife can throw a jab. Does that mean she can step into the ring and use it effectively? Yes, the arts will refine that, but that is what I'm talking about, when I mention having a base/foundation.


Thats what I intend to do. I don't worry about critisicm though. Words can't do anything to me, I do appreciate your advice though. If any of you know any certain style that helps mostly handicapp people I would like to know of it. I have alot of people I know who could use it.

This line tells me that you really are not interested in hearing what we're saying to you. IMO, if you were, I'd think that you'd want to get some solid training first, before taking someone under your wing.

I didn't say I have the perfect fighting style, I said if there is one I would like to know what it is. It also seems to me that everyone is talking about fighting systems that take a life time to learn. Some people don't have a life time.

Krav Maga is known for its simple and effective techniques, that're quick and easy to learn. But this does not mean that you dont have to practice. Again, I too do not feel that one should have to wait 30yrs, BUT, you need to have a solid base first. What you're doing is really no different than what a 1 or 2 week womens SD class does...it teaches some basic stuff, but its highly unlikely that the women who took that class, will ever do that stuff again. If you dont continue on in your journey, then you'll most likely be limited as to how far you can go in regards to defending yourself.



They can be taught simple things like eye gouges. Knowing anything is better then knowing nothing.

And I could show my wife how to do that...BUT...if I don't keep working with her, if her foundation sucks, her stances suck, her footwork and movement suck, she can throw all the eye jabs she wants...but they'll all suck! This, IMO, is what you seem to be missing. You think that all it takes is a few simple moves. Sorry, thats not the case.


I also stated that the techniques in the video are basics. If it was something hard to do how would it benefeit anyone. They are simple and to the point. They can even be countered easily. The whole point is I want to show people something that doesn't take forever to set up. My techniques do work. The techniques you have seen are for people who are just weaker as I have said. You all seem to be more worried about laughing me off, instead of trying to point in the right direction to help people. That makes you shallow. The color of belts and social standing are useless in a real fight. The one who survies wins the prize of his life. Some of you know this. Some of you will never know. Regardless, I will do all I can to help people. While you look down and tell them what they do wrong. Some of you here care and have given me good advice. Please continue to do so. I will consider all of it as I continue to train and devolpe.

Cody

Ummm.....yes dude, I am concerned with pointing you in the right direction. I've got over 20yrs under my belt. What do you have again? There are others here, in this very thread, that have alot of knowledge as well. Whats upsetting you, is our replies. You're not hearing what YOU want, so you're getting upset. Sorry, I'm not sugar coating anything for you. I'm being honest and upfront. Sorry if you dont like that.

Again, you're worried about the quick route, yet looking at those clips, I saw no movement or footwork and if it was there, IMO, it wasn't that good. I'm assuming that you've also covered or plan on covering the 'what if' phase of a technique? You do know what this is dont you? Thats what you do when your original tech. fails and you have to adapt and do something else. This my friend is going to take a bit longer than a few classes.

My suggestion, should you choose to take it, which after reading your replies, you probably wont but I'll say it anyways....spend some quality time in an art. Get a good base, a good foundation, and go from there.
 
Okay, one more.

I didn't say I have the perfect fighting style, I said if there is one I would like to know what it is.

Yes, you have never claimed to have a "perfect" style, however, you have claimed to have a system designed with the handicapped/disabled in mind, and have yet to show anything that is actually geared towards their needs. That might be the issue you are coming across here. And as has been said (many, many, many times here and elsewhere, by myself and many others...), there is no such thing as a "perfect" system, if there was, we would all be learning it!

It also seems to me that everyone is talking about fighting systems that take a life time to learn. Some people don't have a life time.

No, what we are talking about is the fact that it takes a long time to master such an area of knowledge. I can realistically get someone completely street-effective in about 3 months, but it is going to be some of the most painful, scary, uncomfortable 3 months that person will ever go through! But I cannot get them to master a complete art in such time, that will take years at the least. But without that understanding, creating a new art will not really be possible, as you will simply not have the knowledge or understanding of the underlying principles that will be needed to create such an art.

They can be taught simple things like eye gouges. Knowing anything is better then knowing nothing.

Although an eye gouge can be physically simple, it is quite another thing to overcome the social considerations and generate the mindset required to actually use such a technique. Even in high stress environments, people can get quite squeamish. But if that is what you are looking for, and you want advise on other systems to look to, check out Richard Dmitri's Senshido, in particular their "Shredder" concept, used as a go-to concept for any close-quarters defence. Again, there's no need to go around re-inventing the wheel just because you lack the experience to know where it already is (and for the record, Richard's Shredder is little more than an application of Ninjutsu's Shako Ken, or similar from many other Japanese and Chinese arts, as well as I'm sure many many others).

With regard to your last statement there, there is a phrase which can be very well applied to martial arts study, and that is "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". In essence, having a little experience, and believing you actually know what you are doing is not good. You can do more harm than good here, by trying half-tested ideas, having a false sense of their applicability (due to a lack of understanding of the variations in different environments, which just comes from a lack of experience), and much more. And in regards to a student having a little knowledge, if they put all their faith in one technique (an eye gouge), as that is all they know, and cannot apply it, or it doesn't work, that can actually lead to more panic than if they didn't have it at all, which can put them in even more danger.

I also stated that the techniques in the video are basics. If it was something hard to do how would it benefeit anyone. They are simple and to the point. They can even be countered easily.

Basics are good (although it could be argued what alternative would you have, given your limited experience), simple and to the point is good as well. No-one is arguing those points. The argument is how are these geared towards the handicapped, as that has been your claim.

The whole point is I want to show people something that doesn't take forever to set up. My techniques do work.

Your techniques do work... for you. In the way you have them shown here. With a compliant partner. Not sure about the rest. But as for something that "doesn't take forever to set up", I'm not really sure what you are talking about. Many arts are just as direct, and require just as little set up. Within the Ninjutsu schools, many techniques are trained and taught from what we refer to as a Shizen no kamae, or Shizentai. This is a "natural posture, or natural body", and is simply you just standing there, with no pre-set posture or set-up, and many other arts do just the same thing. Again, you are trying to reinvent a wheel due to not knowing that many others have been riding around on theirs for years.

The techniques you have seen are for people who are just weaker as I have said.

You know, I didn't know where I was going to put this part, but here seems as good a place as any. I'm going to go through your clips one by one, and we'll see how they stack up against your claim here.

CLIP 1: SELF DEFENCE (Quote from the opening blurb) "This is my own fighting private style, The Destroyer Style. It is a mixture of all fighting styles I know. I have used only techniques that work. All of my techniques could permanently injure an opponent so please do not practice them unless you do them slow and cautiously. Never fight unless it is a life or death situation. Every life is valuable and should be protected...."

Well, this little blurb is quite an impressive sounding one, until you look closely an see that what you are saying is that you are experienced (not from everything else we've seen), and you are fixated on the violence (come on, you called this system for smaller, weaker people "The DESTROYER Style?"). And there are plenty of reasons to fight without it being life and death, and plenty of assaults that are not life threatening, so your definitions are fairly limited. But I think we know where that comes from.

First Technique. Jab/Knife Counter (From the clip "I would break the arm before getting the choke").

Okay, against a left jab (which is not really going to hit you), you redirect to your left with your left hand, catch the throat/face from over their left shoulder with your right hand, and take the other guy over backwards. If we are to use your description as to who you think this is going to work for, your a bit off. To begin with, your attacker is not punching to target, instead he is hitting short and off to the side (your left), allowing you to get your catch easily. He also drops his guard entirely, and just goes along with your movements after his part is done, so I see little evidence of it working at all here.

But more to the point. If we assume that there is a proper attack, then you need to work on your evasion there, and that may not be possible for a handicapped person (depending on the handicap itself). You have also done absolutely nothing to allow you to get your "choke" there. A simple hit to the ribs (under the attacking arm) would do that, and can flow in quite nicely. But the weirdest thing is if this is designed for a smaller, weaker person, then why are you taking someone forward (with the redirection), then switching them backwards without anything to get them going that way themselves? If the defender really is shorter or weaker, then this technique is flawed, and from a "this really works" standpoint, it needs work, especially if you are going to go against a knife (WAY more control of that hand needed there). But really, if you have broken the arm (against a knife), get out, there is no need to continue! That is ego, son.

Oh, yeah, and that hammerfist is weak and unnecessary. There are far better choices for this defence (still following your flow) for someone smaller or weaker.

Second Technique: Defence against a jab/right cross combination.

Against a left/right combo you have elected to stand your ground (again little evasion), and essentially wear two punches (although it helped that both were off target, and you were guarded). Between the attacks you flick out your right hand towards the attackers left shoulder (pushing him back? Jamming his shoulder? Badly targetted punch?), and kick him back with a right stomping kick. Well, that kick will require a fair amount of strength, so you are again contravening your own ideas here. As well as that, an attacker won't stay far enough back for you to use that kick, so it's a poor choice on a few levels. And you don't get anywhere near enough power into it (see how you are knocked back yourself? That's what I mean). So this one fails for smaller/weaker people, as well as as a practical technique for the street in the set-up you have here.

Third Technique: Jab/Knife Counter.

Well, you catch the attacking arm (still missing any evasion here, but the attacks aren't coming to you either), and push your knee into the back of the opponents knee to drive him down, then pull him back and stomp/kick him in the head. If we take this as a jab defence, then it is overkill, the kick to the head is you going to jail for assault. But before that you need to be able to catch the jab, and that ain't easy. If we take this as a knife assault, you really need to get much better control on the attacking arm, cause you get opened up quite badly in this demo. And again, this technique is not really well suited to weaker or disabled people, as well as being rather flawed on a few levels. The common thread of these techniques is you taking the opponent in different directions by forcing them physically. If you want this to work for smaller/weaker people, that will need to change. Spend some time (a few years at least) training in Aikido to get a better understanding of this.

CLIP 2: Sucker Punch.

Leaving behind the fact that this is not a sucker punch, let's look at it. Against a punch from a distance (which is not going to reach you, by the way), you lean back (the first evasion I've seen here), and bring your hands up to block/deflect the punch, then lean forward and hit to the face (jaw or ears?), and end with the same kick as earlier (left this time). This is actually your best one. Hitting to the ears (if you are) is a better tactic than many others you have stated, and is a good disruptor. But bear in mind the potential damage that can be done. If it's to the jaw, it needs a lot more behind it for you to have any effect, so I'm going to assume you are going for the ears. But realise that without such a compliant partner (who is leaning back before the first hit, and falling before your kick), you will simply not have the distance to perform this, let alone a smaller person having the power to have that kick as a primary tool (although hitting the ears will mean less power will be needed).

CLIP 3: Simple Hip Toss.

Well, what to say here. Frankly, the technique is okay, but not particularly well done. What leaps out at me the most, though, is your lack of concern for the safety of your partner. I do some very hard, nasty things with my training partners, but it is always safe and with concern for their wellbeing. I see none of that here, and that tells me that you have a long way to go in your maturity. But you're young, so you have time. Just stop trying to leap ahead so much, you are just going to stumble and fall.

You all seem to be more worried about laughing me off, instead of trying to point in the right direction to help people. That makes you shallow.

No, Cody, we are not laughing you off, we are pointing out that you do not have the requisite knowledge or experience to do what you are claiming, and in responce we are trying to point you in the right direction. And that direction is to a school with an experienced teacher, so you can realise that what you think you are inventing is a limited version of what is actually out there. Thinking that you know better than those here with less than a year in MMA and less than a year in TKD is far more arrogant.

The color of belts and social standing are useless in a real fight. The one who survies wins the prize of his life. Some of you know this. Some of you will never know. Regardless, I will do all I can to help people. While you look down and tell them what they do wrong. Some of you here care and have given me good advice. Please continue to do so. I will consider all of it as I continue to train and devolpe.

We've covered the belts thing on another thread, but to reiterate, belts are a way of showing experience and understanding. And again, not every fight is life and death. I believe your heart is in the right place, but if you really want to help people in this way, take the time to get the required knowledge and experience before proclaiming yourself the founder of a non-system. Learn from those who have been there, and have done that.

Cody

Finally, and this is for the Mods here, might I suggest we move this thread to the General Martial Arts section, or the General Self Defence section? I think it's only guys posting, and there is nothing I can find to make this relevant to the Women's forum.
 
I do not have any belts or certifacations. That doesn't make what I know any less valuble. If you are concerned with belt and social status. You are concerned with pride. I don't really care what people think about me at the end of the day. Living threw a life or death situation is the only thing that matters. Some people don't have a life time to learn how to defend themselves. While you worry about rank, a real person who fights in life or death situations worries about survival. Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.
Cody

Sounds like a junior Phil Elmore in the making :rolleyes:
 
Additionally, if you -do- manage to come up with something that could be considered valuable as a style, using words like 'destroyer' 'kill' 'maim' etc will make it hard for you to be taken seriously anywhere.
 
If I would have fought thirty people with any of the fighting styles I had learned or even just 2 people. I would have died, or at least been crippled up. My experience is from life.

If you fight 30 people using any style you would have ended up dead or a cripple. The only useful style in such circumstances is the 1 mile dash.

Doing something that would give 30 people a reason to beat you up is mistake number 1.
Ending up surrounded by them is mistake number 2.
That is the lesson you should have taken away from that encounter.
Not the fact that your martial arts training wasn't sufficient in that context.
 
Don't get me wrong, wanting to be better is good. The reason should be for helping others though. If we can't help other people defend themselves we are no better then the people attacking them. Even if your the best fighter in the world if that knowledge doesn't go to help others. You haven't did anything worth speaking of.
Cody

Hmm... I practise MA for me. Not for someone else. If someone else wants to be able defend himself or herself, then he or she will have to spend a serious amount of time in the dojo / boxing hall / whatever, just like I do.

The only persons whose self defense potential I will actively look after (and try to teach) are my daughters, because I care about them and because I am responsible for their upbringing. I am going to do my best to make sure they are able to take care of themselves. Everyone else is not my responsibility.
 
shameless plug.
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Probably wasted too lol as I doubt you can get the DVD in the States but hey you do it for mates lol! Ian Freeman though the MMA fighter in the film has a lot of experience of fights both competitive and in the 'street', he was a doorman in a rough area of the North East of England for a long while. He's also the one who beat Frank Mir in UFC 38, the first of the UK UFCs.
 
To be blunt, you don't have the necessary training, experience, skill level and maturity to be developing a new martial arts style. Give it a number of years of serious training and you might get there, but your not there yet. I think you've learned a few things that could work, and I can see you teaching someone who knows absolutely nothing a few things here and there who doesn't have access to a qualified teacher, but thats about it. You need to learrn far more before you are able to come up with your own system, this takes time, hard work and discipline, and a whole lot more humility in the process from you to get there. Good luck in your journey, one you have barely begun quite frankly.

To be fair, I'm not all that much more advanced than you. To be fair, I'm fully aware I'm nowhere near ready to come up with my own system.
 
(To the Moderators):

Hmm, actually, thinking about it, can we just merge this thread with "The Destroyer Style" one? We seem to be having the same discussion/argument in two places right now, and there are points being made in each that are relevant to each other...
 
If you fight 30 people using any style you would have ended up dead or a cripple. The only useful style in such circumstances is the 1 mile dash.

Doing something that would give 30 people a reason to beat you up is mistake number 1.
Ending up surrounded by them is mistake number 2.
That is the lesson you should have taken away from that encounter.
Not the fact that your martial arts training wasn't sufficient in that context.

Okay, don't be so easy on the kid, he's young, dumb, and full of delusions of grandeur. Give him 20 years and he'll see how stupid he was.
 
I didn't say I have the perfect fighting style, I said if there is one I would like to know what it is. It also seems to me that everyone is talking about fighting systems that take a life time to learn. Some people don't have a life time. They can be taught simple things like eye gouges. Knowing anything is better then knowing nothing. I also stated that the techniques in the video are basics. If it was something hard to do how would it benefeit anyone. They are simple and to the point. They can even be countered easily. The whole point is I want to show people something that doesn't take forever to set up. My techniques do work. The techniques you have seen are for people who are just weaker as I have said. You all seem to be more worried about laughing me off, instead of trying to point in the right direction to help people. That makes you shallow. The color of belts and social standing are useless in a real fight. The one who survies wins the prize of his life. Some of you know this. Some of you will never know. Regardless, I will do all I can to help people. While you look down and tell them what they do wrong. Some of you here care and have given me good advice. Please continue to do so. I will consider all of it as I continue to train and devolpe.

Cody


Simple is good, but there are other factors involved. If you don't practice a skill, no matter how simple, you lose the ability to use it under duress, if peope don't have enough time to practice the skills they learn, those skills degarade. Eye gouges are great, if you don't mind maiming someone, which is fine in a life and death situation, but not all attacks are life and death, and tehre are consequences for everyone involved.

Frankly, with your experience, and the little knowledge that you've earned, you're likely to teach people just enough to get them hurt or worse.

I could fight before I ever got into the martial arts, and I've been practicing for over 20 years, and I don't know enough to start my own style. I didn't see anything in the video that didn't require a certain amount of strength, and/or mobility, which the people you want to teach, don't have. You have good intentions, but it takes more than good intentions to create a new style.
 
Just a quick note: The thread in the Womens martial art section has been merged with this one. 2 discussions on the same topic, so they've been merged.

Ok...back to our regular scheduled program. :D
 
Thanks MJS.


Cody if you listen to what people are saying it is pretty loud and clear that nobody here feels you have the requisite background ie. training, maturity, etc. to found a style. Worse yet your lack of training may endanger anyone that you teach. For one I think you should keep training and try to get better and seek adequate instruction. Forget the Destroyer Style and try to get good at some thing. Good luck and I hope you reconsider your path in this endeavor!
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It's not only years of training required to teach. It's years of training's effect upon the body. The claims to be able to teach the disabled is quite lofty but I see no mentions of degrees in medicine, Physical Education, Kinesiology or anything of the sort. A healthy person practicing the martial arts can royally mess themselves up through repetitive action, a disabled person, even more-so. My best friend is in a wheelchair and he practices aikido so that question's already been answered.

I always use the example of Master Choi, founder of Choi Kwang Do. He was a high ranking teacher in TKD and had great tech. but after years of snapping kicks and punches it had adverse effects on his joints. He modified the movements from linear to a more circular approach, had to change entire delivery systems and then practiced these for another crap-load of years while still in TKD till he had enough time to see how these new movements would affect the body ... Then he started Choi Kwang Do formally.

A new style does not come after a couple years here or there. It comes from men who have been in a style for years, decades even.
 
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What is your overall curriculum? What basics do you teach? What are their progressions? What drills do you use to implement them?

Also, what is the overall strategy you are trying to employ? All of your techniques need to be bound in an underlying strategy so that they can flow into one another.

How do you deal with varying levels of force? A wrist grab from a co-worker at a company party does not need the same response as the same type of wrist grab from someone trying to get you into a car to rape you.

If you are dealing with handicap people, what emotional/mental strategies do you have to help with their self-esteem and not being withdrawn in some cases?

What skills do you employ for precontact and de-escalation? Fights just don't happen, how do you teach others to defuse the situation?
 
Doing something that would give 30 people a reason to beat you up is mistake number 1.


A friend of mine tried to stop a gril from being beat to death, it was over a gang issue. They injured my friends spine and the police had not yet arrived. So quite simply even if I had run with him on my back I highly doubt we would have made it far.

I do see what you all are saying, there are alot more fighting styles then I even knew existed out there. I will do my best to find some of these schools to train in. I hope you guys don't think I'm trying to say I know as much as you. If I didn't want advice I wouldn't have come here to begin with. Its just frustrating to find out I don't have alot to offer for helping people.
 
I think your heart is in the right place. If you go about learning from one style, and supplement it with your knowledge from existing arts, and train all of it in an alive manner (your compliant partner is nothing more than a breathing punching bag... so find live partners willing to train at your level/speed) then I see no reason why you wouldn't explore your own fighting philosophy.

Specifically, find statistics on disadvantaged victims. Look up what (generally) happens when a wheelchair-bound/paraplegic/etc victim gets mugged or attacked. However, I'm sure that many of those folks would probably defend themselves with something other than a hand to hand MA... Or just travel in a group of friends.

Ultimately, I think you'll rethink the Destroyer Style and scrap it as a style per se, and internalize it as your own as your move along your MA journey.

Again, get an instructor level in a real art. Then formulate your own theories from there. Think about it: the people you want to help are in need of it from a SD point of view. You would want to give them the best perspective possible, right?
 
Just my two cents here, I'm one who was and still is toying around to "create a new style", but it is more for my personal benefit, to help me think about the motions of the styles that I learned and the principles taught by them, and see if it's possible to come up with different ways to apply the same principles while still being effective. A new style is really difficult to learn, let alone to create one.

While I do teach, I currently teach Wing Chun and also Escrima, eventually I will teach the style I'm creating. but for now, the "new style" is just something to keep me entertained and exploring the martial arts while I am still learning.

Like every one is saying and will likely continue to say, we are all students to the martial arts, even after a lifetime, we'll still be students as there's always new things to gain even from the existing arts. After we all gain more experience, we'll likely find that many "missing aspects" in this or that style, may have been there, but to the untrained eye, it was not there, therefore one decided to "make a new style to fill in the missing links" I know it has been like this for me. The more I think about what was missing in Wing Chun, trying other arts to "fill in the gaps" actually i find more that Wing Chun already had it, but wasn't obvious until I learned better.

Anyway, hope you can find people's advice and experiences from MT helpful for you.
 
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