The Commercial System

[Touch Of Death]

So are closed door systems, in fact I'd say they are better at making people feel they are learning something super.

As for the schools, you asked for examples, would you prefer I list schools that you've not heard of? Don't see what good that would do to be honest. Point is the same, a good instructor can teach good material and make a living doing so. Takes a combination of not just teaching, but also business skills.

This commercial vs "secret" is a faulty split, but if that's what you are after check out the back of a martial arts magazine. "Secret style only I know because I awas the only one worthy and learnt it in a secret room with no witnesses" is a fairly widely used marketing scheme, usually associated with frauds.

Secretive and fraudulent do not need to go together.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not even close. There are a half dozen TKD schools within a 1/2 mile radius of our school. there's a karate class that uses the same facility on different days of the week. There's a Red Dragon School across the street. etc. etc. all of whom have larger enrollments and charge more money.

Sorry; close and affordable.
sean

 

[Danjo]

So are closed door systems, in fact I'd say they are better at making people feel they are learning something super.

As for the schools, you asked for examples, would you prefer I list schools that you've not heard of? Don't see what good that would do to be honest. Point is the same, a good instructor can teach good material and make a living doing so. Takes a combination of not just teaching, but also business skills.

This commercial vs "secret" is a faulty split, but if that's what you are after check out the back of a martial arts magazine. "Secret style only I know because I awas the only one worthy and learnt it in a secret room with no witnesses" is a fairly widely used marketing scheme, usually associated with frauds.

If they're advertising in Black Belt, I doubt they're really that exclusive.

 

[Danjo]

Sorry; close and affordable.
sean

Well, most of those that enroll(85-95%) drop out after watching their first sparring session or Kiai drill. They see that we do our techniques with contact and that the instructor or his assistants actually correct form and technique instead of allowing it to be sloppy and they simply leave and join something else. They don't even wait for the end of the six week session, they see the things I mentioned etc. and just never come back. Tough to make a living that way.

 

[Andrew Green]

If they're advertising in Black Belt, I doubt they're really that exclusive.

Nope, it's a matter of marketing language.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, most of those that enroll(85-95%) drop out after watching their first sparring session or Kiai drill. They see that we do our techniques with contact and that the instructor or his assistants actually correct form and technique instead of allowing it to be sloppy and they simply leave and join something else. They don't even wait for the end of the six week session, they see the things I mentioned etc. and just never come back. Tough to make a living that way.

Are you sure it's because you make contact? Pretty much everyone that walks into my class comes in fully expecting contact, and would probably walk out if we started doing no contact stuff.

Although a kiai drill, depending on what that means, would likely get me to leave a school.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, most of those that enroll(85-95%) drop out after watching their first sparring session or Kiai drill. They see that we do our techniques with contact and that the instructor or his assistants actually correct form and technique instead of allowing it to be sloppy and they simply leave and join something else. They don't even wait for the end of the six week session, they see the things I mentioned etc. and just never come back. Tough to make a living that way.

"Kimo" has similar stories of Soldiers quiting after the first lesson in Hawaii.
Sean

 

[Danjo]

Are you sure it's because you make contact? Pretty much everyone that walks into my class comes in fully expecting contact, and would probably walk out if we started doing no contact stuff.

Although a kiai drill, depending on what that means, would likely get me to leave a school.

It's where you stand in a horse stance while the entire class takes turns punching you in the stomach.

So now we're talking about your school? Ok, what do you teach and are you able to support yourself at it?

 

[KempoGuy06]

what is the main question whether tailoring the system is good or bad? or if tailoring the system is considered watering it down?

B

 

[Andrew Green]

Nope, but my business skills suck. Tried it, did so for about 4-years, made some big mistakes business wise and decided I was better off not being self-employed. Holidays where non-existant and never having a free evening where not fun.

So unless there is a sudden demand for martial arts durring regular working hours, I don't think I'd want too ever go back to that.

And your drill would definately loose me as a student, not because its hard, but because I don't think that sort of training has any benefit, nor is it any fun. If you want to hit me, then glove up and spar.

 

[MJS]

Well, Kajukenbo isn't the same art as EPAK (commercial or otherwise) so it's not a matter of it being watered down or not. Sijo Emperado was Prof. Chow's first black belt and broke off to group with four others to form the original nucleus of Kajukenbo in 1950 before Ed Parker even got to the mainland in 1953. Ed Parker's personal Kenpo isn't the original Kenpo Karate that he first taught either if I remember Doc's earlier posts correctly, but rather his development of Kenpo resulting from many influences and his own personal innovations over the years. It just wasn't readily packaged and sold.

Hey Dan! Thanks for the reply. Yes, I see what you're saying. I was just using Kaju as an example, along with the other two. If you notice, there always seems to be this 'difference' between EPAK and say the SL4 that Doc teaches. I was just curious to see if there was that 'difference' amongst the various Kaju schools. In other words, GM Harper and Prof. Bishop both teach the original method correct? If thats the case, are they both teaching the same or would one fall into the 'commercial or motion' description that we often see with Parker material?

 

[MJS]

Generally speaking, I don't feel that "Tailoring" is a weakness. Are there physical corrections that can and should be made at times---ABSOLUTELY! But, here, I refer to the term generally. I feel that it's something that is unavoidable. As the art becomes more and more one's own, through practice and experiences, certain tailorings are made intentionally, or unintentionally. We all have certain preferences, likes, dislikes, ertc.... I would also say, that tailoring has gone on since the very first practitoner, and will always continue to do so. Even Mr. Parker, Emperado. etc.. tailored what they were taught to fit them more. I would rather call it "shortcuts", instead of tailoring.

Well, this is the same line of thinking that I was using. Teach everyone the same techniques, the same way, however, allow for 'tailoring', 'shortcuts' or whatever other words we want to use, so we can adapt the moves for the various height, reach advantages/disadvantages, etc that everyone has. I mean, can it be expected that a 5'7, 110lb female and a 6'5, 220lb male are going to move the same, have the same reach, etc.? I'd think that some changes would have to be made.

 

[MJS]

Well the idea that some "do original, nothing left out kenpo," is incorrect as well. There isn't anything left out of Parker's commercial art that you'll find in Tracy's or other Parker Lineage's. kenpo wasn't developed to that extent that some think. Parker chose to allow students and teachers alike to express the material more conceptually though re-arrangement concepts and personal tailoring. Others chose to count every variation as a different entity or technique. Same thing. All martial arts engage in tailoring at some point. What made the commercial system unique is it put tailoring in the hands of students. Traditional arts mandate a strict study of basics and develops specific skills and knowledge, allowing the student to reach a significant level of competence, (usually well beyond black belt) before beginning a personal tailoring process based on a now substantial knowledge base. Therefore a student knows what is reasonable tailoring, and what tailoring is not acceptable. Tailoring for unsupported knowledge personal preferences alone just dilutes the process of the unskilled, but it allows for quick promotions and satisfies students desires and therefore student retention. In the business students are empowered to create a feeling of satisfaction with the product, through a measure of participation in their personal development.

Thanks Doc, for another wel-thought out reply. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I safe to interpret the above as, tailoring is ok, but it would be better if the students were not the sole ones responsible for it, but instead the instructors?

Out of curiosity, how do you address the 'tailoring' idea at your school? Do you adjust the tech. for the person or are all of the students, regardless of physical differences, applying the moves in the same way?

What Parker did do is remove the "Control Manipulations" from the strict structure of the motion based structure, because it was not user friendly. It required a measure of pain, learning to fall, and it required a knowledgeable hands on teacher for every aspect. Something the business couldn't support, as the bulk of mature students didn't want to "wrestle." There is a reason most manipulation schools are in clubs and gyms and are only semi-commercial. The numbers are low. He also, after making reference to "nerve strikes" in his first book, removed all references in subsequent writings, as being too dangerous for commercial applications in schools full of, and dominated by teenage adolescents and children.

I'm going to assume that SL4 still contains the control manipulations? I'm wondering if they still could have been kept and required of every teacher, however, the teacher would only teach them to adults, rather than kids. Its a shame that it was removed, as it seems to me that it is a very important aspect of the arts. Did the Tracys have this and do they carry this concept on?

But Parker was very clever. Although he removed these things, he always hinted at their existence through the material. In fact 75% of the named techniques in his commercial system require significant manipulations, even though most teach them without that consideration. "Twisted Twig" is an attack of a wrist-flex and throw. "Entangled wing" is another variation as well on the theme. All of these things can be taught at the knowledge level of the teacher. Of course that means some variations are better than others that address the material realistically over a "move first" mentality found in defending against punches. It also means on one level, you have to spend as much time learning the attacks as the defenses. You have to learn a wrist-flex throw attack, to learn how to defend against it with a training partner.

Agreed. Kind of hard to defend against something if someone doesnt even know how to apply the initial attack.

The notion that all the material is commercial is not true. The Kenpo material based on "motion" was specifically designed, created, and built from the ground up to be a commercial business model based on a dance studio concept. There are those however who do not teach it "commercially and choose to teach for the sheer enjoyment for little reward. However, the material is still commercially based in the Ed parker business of self defense studio proliferation, and therefore is a commercial system.

There are some that suggest that the declaration of being "non-commercial" is itself a business ploy and sales technique. The test for this is when someone says they are non-commercial, check to see if they advertise their school locations, and whether or not the school is open to the public and invites and accepts everyone who may stumble upon it. Of course they could still be teaching commercial material. However if the material is not based on the commercial version of Kenpo, and is not open to the public, and is unconcerned about numbers and only the quality of the product, it's a good bet they are indeed non-commercial. It isn't hard to tell when someone is in the "business" and when they're not. Call them up and ask their hours and how much it costs. If you can't find them or get them on the phone, they probably aren't fishing for business.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Danjo]

And your drill would definately loose me as a student, not because its hard, but because I don't think that sort of training has any benefit, nor is it any fun. If you want to hit me, then glove up and spar.

Oke Doke.

 

[MJS]

Now, why, if someone is looking for effective self defense, would someone want to 'water down' so to speak, the material?

So..at this time, I'd like to open this up for discussion. I'd like to hear from all of the Kenpo arts, ie: Parker, Tracy, Kaju, so don't be shy...please post your comments.

Mike[/quote
To comment on why water down...I think first we have to ask is this done for a specific reason. 1) Is this a self-defense course? If so what is the objective? A 6-8 week program that is geared at giving the customer an understanding of basic self-defense...is a watered down program by design and as such is fine...From what I've heard reported from most of the Ken/mpo systems is each founder tends to increase the the requirements....
From my own experience I seen more material added... but I've also seen things watered down from a blood and guts respect...
We're not really teaching for the same reasons that the early Instructors did...survival techniques....Today's client is looking for the "health club" something that most can discuss over martini's...I think if you told them that broken bones are inevitable most would never sign up....So is watering down something done...I guess it must be....
How many instructors today put their students through the same physical requirements that they went through themselves??? I'm sure there are still the Blood, Sweat & Tears classes out there but by the large part...most are doing what they have to remain profitable....
IMO...

And that, IMHO, is sad. If someone wants the health club feel, let them join a gym. I have other methods of getting in shape, so while the arts to provide a good cardio workout and the chance to make friends, that is not my sole purpose for training. My goals are SD. In essence the serious minded SD student suffers in the long run, because the demand for 'tea time' is greater.

Sure, if the classes resulted in bruises and extreme contact every time, chances are you may face a lawsuit and enrollment would drop. But, while a change in the contact from the old days to current is necessary, people should still get what they pay for. If you're advertising effective SD, then part of that package is contact. IMO, better to prep the SD minded person in the dojo, where mistakes can be made and corrected, rather than if they need to call upon their material, they are in for a surprise.

 

[MJS]

Again, I've seen schools that do all of that as their sales gimic. They won't call it that, but that's what it is. A way to attract students based on getting them to believe they are joining something "special." We'll call it the "Secret clubhouse" marketing method. Working off the belief that people want to join the "secret club" and instilling a sense of superiority to all the non-members.

In many cases this is almost a dangerous, cult like form of recruitment.

Its interesting because I've had some of my very best sessions in a garage or backyard, conducted by people who have knowledge and skill, that I've met thru the martial art circles, yet they don't advertise, but you're walking out of there knowing that what you're learning works. No gimmicks, no BS, just so good old fashion kick *** training.

 

[MJS]

Well, most of those that enroll(85-95%) drop out after watching their first sparring session or Kiai drill. They see that we do our techniques with contact and that the instructor or his assistants actually correct form and technique instead of allowing it to be sloppy and they simply leave and join something else. They don't even wait for the end of the six week session, they see the things I mentioned etc. and just never come back. Tough to make a living that way.

And that is the way it should be IMO. I just don't understand why people would want to join a school and expect no contact.

 

[Andrew Green]

Its interesting because I've had some of my very best sessions in a garage or backyard, conducted by people who have knowledge and skill, that I've met thru the martial art circles, yet they don't advertise, but you're walking out of there knowing that what you're learning works. No gimmicks, no BS, just so good old fashion kick *** training.

Me too

Of course it's never claimed as non-commercial or special in any way, just training. What makes those sessions great is the friendly / laid back atmosphere and the openness.

 

[MJS]

Are you sure it's because you make contact? Pretty much everyone that walks into my class comes in fully expecting contact, and would probably walk out if we started doing no contact stuff.

They walk in because they already know and accept the fact that what you're teaching, ie BJJ, sub grappling, involves contact. A good portion of people that I have seen are timid flowers, grossed out at the thought of anything violent. I've gone over some grappling in classes that I used to teach. Amazing at the number of uncomfortable people. I guess those types assume that they will never have to get in close contact and touch anyone and will be capable of throwing someone across the room with their mind.

Although a kiai drill, depending on what that means, would likely get me to leave a school.

Don't worry Andrew, I don't think you'll see any LARPing at a Kajukenbo school.

 

[MJS]

And your drill would definately loose me as a student, not because its hard, but because I don't think that sort of training has any benefit, nor is it any fun. If you want to hit me, then glove up and spar.

I'd say its more conditioning than anything else. This is done without any protective gear. Interestingly enough, I watched in full today, the Fight Quest Kyokushin Karate episode. I saw that same type of drill/conditioning and those guys are certainly no stranger to contact. I also found it interesting to hear two MMA guys repeatedly comment that the training was tough and kicking their ***.