"The Arrest & Death of Nathaniel Jones"

[Michelle]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
We have non lethal restraining technology and as a nation of overweight people we should probably consider the problem. However, I sense a belief that he deserved to die for being a "Fat Bastard" from people on this site and he should probably be killed for resisting arrest in the most racialy charged city in America. I can feel the love
Sean

No no no. I don't believe anyone here said he "deserved to die" for being obese (or for any other reason for that matter)... I believe what was said here is that it was definitely contributory and shouldn't come as a surprise, and his death, for reasons listed, does not, in some people's opinions (mine included) constitute "excessive use of force" or police brutality. I still question the whole gray area that he was "killed". I look at it more as if He died. There's a difference. A big one.

My father died at age 62 of a heart attack during an asthma attack. He was overweight, ate crap food, was sedentary, had high blood pressure, drank too much, had the beginnings of emphasema AND smoked two packs of cigarettes a day. It was actually his asthma inhaler that put his heart over the top and sent him into arrythmia (sp?) and he didn't come out. Should we have sued the maker of the asthma inhaler? Uh, no. He treated his body like crap, even knowing he had all these problems. He died. It has nothing to do with "feeling the love" TOD. It has to do with common sense, the consequences of our actions and accountability. I feel bad he died. But there's no reason to try and make it something it's not. If he was white or hispanic or samoan, or it happened in Des Moine, Iowa would anyone even know about this news story? Prolly not. Because you said so yourself....its a racially charged city that's already got a bone to pick.

Respectfully,
Michelle

 

[Karazenpo]

Wow, I'm the one who started this topic but hey, at least everyone is being civil in expressing their opinions. Myself, being a police officer is very interested in hearing everyone's viewpoints whether you agree with me or not.

Quote from Pacificshore:
Hey, unless you walk in a pair of Cop boots, and know what it takes, keep your opinions based on the facts at hand, and not what should have or have not been done by the Police. Granted there are a few bad apples out there, but there are far MANY good hard working cops out their doing a job not many are cut out to do.

I have to most definitely go with that. How many passing judgement can honestly say and give documentation that they have been in similar situations? It's like me passing judgement on a combat veteran in our military, sorry, but I will take a back seat to him/her, he's been there, I haven't! Now, as far as the cops looking 'sloppy' in the use of the baton, as an instructor's instructor in the use of the police baton please let me address this. First of all, police are given limited training in all aspects of defensive tactics & officer survival in most states due to budget constraints. That is, unfortunately, a fact! Secondly, I hope no one on this forum actually thinks they are going to look as good in the dojo or a demonstration as they would on the street. I don't mean this to agitate anyone but I have to definitely speak out on this. I don't care how hard you train, who you are or how great your ability is, you are not going to look like Jeff Speakmen in The Perfect Weapon, as a matter of fact, Jeff Speakmen, in all due respect, won't look like Jeff Speakmen in the Perfect Weapon in similar street confrontations as in the movies. I'm sure many excellent martial artists reading this can testify to the fact that martial arts as 'applied' in real life encounters is only a shadow of how the practitioner looks in the dojo. The problem I see is many do not want to admit that, even to themselves. They keep up this charade that they can't back up. I know guys like this in the arts who have backed down and basically cowered out when they really should have made a stand (win, lose or draw), in my opinion, just for this reason. They were afraid to break this ridiculous superman 'mystique'. That is why I totally respect where I train, there's no 'smoke & mirrors'. Remember William Cheung when some guy 'crashed' his seminar? (great Wing Chun man, I really mean that, he's very talented). It was caught on tape. Didn't look like 'sticky hands' to me, looked more like Vince McMahon's WWE Thursday Night "Smackdown", true? I think Hollywood created this impossible myth and some try to live up to it. Also making fun of the officers' physical condition, older officers from what I could tell, is like telling the woman in a rape case that she deserved it from either how she was dressed or her affairs with other lovers. Sorry, but it most definitely comes off that way. Let's not blame Mr. Jones for his actions, let's blame the cops, it's their fault he assaulted them with no provocation!

OuLobo: You have been very professional and polite in your posts even when I may disagree with you at times. You also will reflect on what you have wrote and sometimes feel you may have expressed yourself in the wrong light. I've done that too and I also respect that of you but I have to say this and please take it with a smile. I've been in a cop since October 1977 and we are so 'sick & tired' of hearing the "I pay your salary line!", LOL.
OuLobo, c'ome on now, I do enjoy your posts but you can do better than that one! That statement's been around as long as Elliot Ness!, lol. You have to admit that one! Respectfully & Sincerely, "Joe"

 

[Karazenpo]

OUlobo quoted me respectfully but disagreed on this:

With respect, Karazenpo stated "Cops are not trained to fight fair, they are not trained to fight by the 'Queensbury Rules', they are trained to fight to WIN. A municipality or state spends tax dollars to train and equip officers to win, not lose."

OUlobo, you won't believe where I got that statement from. Back in the early 80's I was in court sitting in on someone elses' arrest where the baton was used in a use of force situation in which the defense attorney challenged the injuries sustained by his client. That statement that I used in my post came from the sitting judge hearing the case!!!!!!!!! Not from a cop! Honestly, I'll never forget it, my kind of judge! Great debate, OUlobo! Respectfully, Joe

PS: I knew the parties involved personally, that's why I sat in on it. They told me later that the cop was totally justified in the use of the baton but it was their job to try to beat the case. Go figure!

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by Karazenpo

OuLobo: You have been very professional and polite in your posts even when I may disagree with you at times. You also will reflect on what you have wrote and sometimes feel you may have expressed yourself in the wrong light. I've done that too and I also respect that of you but I have to say this and please take it with a smile. I've been in a cop since October 1977 and we are so 'sick & tired' of hearing the "I pay your salary line!", LOL.
OuLobo, c'ome on now, I do enjoy your posts but you can do better than that one! That statement's been around as long as Elliot Ness!, lol. You have to admit that one! Respectfully & Sincerely, "Joe"

Well I'm glad people can understand when temper and quick typing get the best of me. Now on to business. I know the "I pay your salary" thing is overused and cliche', but I think that some officers seem to forget that they are employed by the citizens, albeit mabey not directly, and that they are employed to protect them, among other duties. I know this isn't the police department's only job, but it is part of their duties. Remember if they get put up on charges, it's the people of that community that will be on the jury. Its their opinions that will determine guilt and possibly punishment. As for Mr. Jones, like most of the forum members here, I regret his death and I don't blame the officers, but my personal opinion is that the beating he recieved was excessive.

I'm glad this discussion was kept from degrading to name calling and threats. I'm happy to see there are still some on the forum that can propegate a debate intelligently and with respect to other's opinions and viewpoints.

 

[Karazenpo]

Thanks Oulobo, an excellent response and challenging so here goes. I viewed the entire tape, the police told the suspect in a clear and authoritive manner to put his hands behind him 16 times. All baton blows were definitely, from what I can see and what investigators have so far said, to non-lethal areas. OC and the like do not usually have much if any appreciable effect on people like that. We had a very similiar case just outside my jurisdiction , the cops unloaded all their OC and the guy just fought even harder. He was obese and later died of a heart attack. What would you suggest? I've seen guys impervious to stun guns. As a matter of fact one of my Police Defensive Tactics instructors could take a full hit from one and keep functioning. He demonstrated it right in front of us. This guy was not only on PCP and cocaine but was an EDP and 350+ pounds, please give this more thought but if that's what you think I will respect that. Also, realize, these things happen fast and you really don't have time to plan but everyone has all the time in the world to judge after it has happened, just like in sports, armchair managing. You must understand, when the police arrive the ball is in the suspect's court. In other words the cops attempt to contain him and hold off until more backup
arrives but the cops do not have the final word on this. The suspect does because if the suspect starts to leave while in this belligerant manner the police must stop him from doing so as he presents a clear & present danger to the public. The cops can't run away or decide to back off and let him go. He's under arrest and that's the bottom line. If we start doing that no one will obey the police in these situations. Civillians have the option of running away from this guy and calling 911. Once all the cops get there who do they call? Ghostbusters? ,lol. We had a joke on that when a brother officer's wife woke him up in the middle of the night. She heard a noise downstairs and told her husband. He said 'call the cops', she said 'you are the cops'! Respectfully, Joe

PS: Please critique my post and after taking all my points into consideration give an alternative. I will be open and honest if I feel, as a police officer, that your points are valid and I tell you.

 

[OULobo]

I still think that it was possible to step back and let him have his fit. The guy might have had strong legs, but he's lifting 350lbs with them. Human legs aren't designed to handle stresses and loads like that, no matter how strong they are. I haven't met a person over 280lbs that can get up in less than 10 seconds. Even NFL football players that size don't hop up from a pile up and they are rigorously trained and in grand condition. This guy isn't going to run off and create a significant public nuiceance in his condition. He barely made it out of the White Castle before he passes out the first time, he had narcolepsy, he had a heart condition, not to mention a first round of bruises that sent him to the ground. Screaming at a man to comply while you are hammering away at his body isn't a realistic way to force his acceptance of your orders. I will concede that there is a level of adrenaline and unpredictablility that has to be taken into account. I know, and thank god, that LEOs aren't robots that are immune to fear, anger and bad decisions, but they should be better prepared and trained in better ways to handle things like this and they need the utmost ability to control their emotions, specifically anger. These officers wouldn't have known if he was complying or trying to shield his ribs from their blows anyway.

I think the officers acted approprietly until Mr. Jones was on the ground. As for another option, I know that "less-than-lethals" aren't cure-alls, but applying an (un)healthy dose of OC or mace to Mr. Jones' face would disorient and partially impare him. Then let him huff and puff his way the roughly 10 steps, okay 20 steps since he was hopped up, that he could walk before he keels over from exhaustion and pain, or in this case, a disabillity that most people his size have. Effectively nutralized without further beating or risk of Mr. Jones get a hold of a police weapon. This may be wishful thinking, but I think it is realistic in application and I have seen other instances where suspects hopped up on whatever have been contained and later apprehended without being beaten. I my opinion even a standoff would have been better than a beating, that consequently led to a death.

Another issue to address is the "boogie man" that some drugs have become. I don't condone drug abuse and I know I'm going to take some flack for this, but PCP is an unpredictable drug. Unpredictible means you don't know what he's going to do. Yes, there are examples where the users become endorphine fueled halucinating nutjobs, but there is a good chance that only effect of the drug on the user is that he will stare at a wall and rock back and forth or have a horrible craving for greasy onion covered miniature hamburgers. People have heard horror stories and seen afterschool movies where"good kids" hurl themselves out windows, but these are extreme examples. Not every kid that gets picked on shoots up the school and not every PCP user becomes violent and aggressive. Knowing that he was on drugs after the fact doesn't justify anything as the officers couldn't know about his habits or condition before or during the confrontation.

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello OUlobo, being a police training officer since April of 1985 I've reviewed many cases on the use of force. Police officers who strike out of anger usually continue to do so even though its over and the suspect has been totally neutralized. These cops 'came right down' when the suspect was neutralized and showed no signs of hostility or anger what-so-ever, just relief and then concern when he wasn't breathing.

As far as his leg strength goes, did you see him on the surviellance video at Whitecastle? One radio talk show host, Laura Ingram, described him as doing an aerobics class and included in this was squats-deep knee bends slowly going up and down. He was impressive for an obese man. I saw that tape too on the Fox channel. He was moving pretty good for a big man. I've seen pro wrestlers that big get up pretty quick in their shows and some of them are as obese as him.

Again, sir, it's the individual state and munipality that dictates how much training an officer gets and its all about dollars and cents. Sure, there are some officers like myself that train on their own but hey, martial arts isn't for everyone. The minimal training standards are mandated by each state and some of these people aren't even law enforcement who call the shots. Many who make these decisions live in suburban America and never got in a fight in their life. They don't have a clue, so until this changes, we're stuck with the programs we have. What I have noticed, OUlobo, is that they don't really care, they set up 'minimum standards' as a form of 'C.Y.A.' , Cover Your ***, that way if something goes down they let themselves off the hook by saying, hey, those cops had training, they were certified, don't blame us! You should see how some of these certifications are done, they're ridiculous but no one cares, it's a all CYA! Respectfully, Joe

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by OULobo
I still think that it was possible to step back and let him have his fit. The guy might have had strong legs, but he's lifting 350lbs with them. Human legs aren't designed to handle stresses and loads like that, no matter how strong they are. I haven't met a person over 280lbs that can get up in less than 10 seconds. Even NFL football players that size don't hop up from a pile up and they are rigorously trained and in grand condition.
. . .

Hi OULobo et al,

I was 284 this morning, And I know I can get up faster than 10 seconds. My BMI is 33+ which means I am Obese, yes. Yet, I carry it quite well. So, I would argue that many people in the weight catagory have problems. Not all, and not those who practice and or workout. Add in the fact that if people are on pain killers and ego enhancers (* i.e. believe they are immortal *) this makes the big guy even more dangerous. Now all he has to do is grab you or fall on you and you are seriously hurt.

As to walking away. What would the police do, if this guy charged a civilian and this civilian got hurt. The Police would be sued.

Believe me, I know Police Brutality, and it does happen. Yet, I also have handled and helped handle people on drugs. If a person gets beat just because this is wrong. If a person attacks a police officer, he has no resepct for the law, and this means that this police officer is nothing more than another person to the bad guy.

As to positional Asphyxiation, where a large person can stop breathing in certain positions including on their stomache and with their arms behind them, is not a common 100% known issue. Police officers are not insects and Police Agencies are not hives. This is to say that what one police officer knows, does not mean that another officer knows this. the training and emphasis from their local or state could be completely different.


Now to the conditions of this guy. He would have died soon anyway. Heck, he might have been on a bender because he was told he was going to die. It is sad that he did die, and I would not have wished him to be dead.

Yet, here is a question, let us suppose he attacked you instead of a police officer. And let us say you push/attack/defend against him and he goes down. Now let us say while on his knees his Nnarcolepsy kicks in and he falls forward onto his stomache. His lower brain kicks in tell him to start to breath, yet he cannot because of his position. Now you were smart and ran away from this altercation. You call 911. The police show up and he is dead. Now they find the exact same things in his body. Yet, you are now under investigation for homocide, since you touched him. Would you like to have been the person walking out that ended up touching him last before he died of his body condition?

Good discussions

 

[Karazenpo]

Excellent post Rich and I, too, know their are bad police officers just like any other profession. Police brutality does exist as sure as domestic violence does but the vast majority of men don't beat their wives or girlfriends either. So, I do agree with you wholeheartedly. Cops are just a cross section of the population. As far as a bad cops goes I'd be the first to want them prosecuted. It gives good cops a bad name because we all basically wear the ame uniform. I really don't think these guys did anything wrong. You know what to look for? There attitudes after the guy immediately stopped. They did not punish him, there was no vengence, hell, I didn't hear a cop swear. The other thing is these guys initially knew they were being filmed, why would they bite their nose to spite their face? They were in a fight for their lives and they knew it! I saw nothing but relief when they finally subdued him. Then concern and immediate medical treatment. Just my take on it! Sincerely, Joe

 

[OULobo]

Well, stop the presses y'all. You have come damn close to convincing me that nothing is wrong here. As fo the instance of personally being attacked on the street by Mr. Jones during his bender; first, I generally avoid people like him (passed out in front of a White Castle; second, I'm not a LEO and should not be held to their standard of conduct and action; third, I wouldn't run if the guy is on the ground, I wouldn't attack, I would observe and if he wasn't moving possibly apply emergency attention my self; finally, I don't see my self in danger at all if the situation panned out as you said. The forensics will show that is was asphixiation and not strangulation that caused his death. I'm not responsible if be can't rise on his own. There is still the issue of self-defense and the issue of proving he didn't fall on his own (epithilials on his clothes would be hard to find if even there and the coroner may not even choose to look). There was a case locally recently where a bar fight occured and a man got punched and fell. When he fell he hit the curb and died of a brain hemorrage. A jury found the striker not guilty of his death. However that didn't absolve him of the possiblilty of a civil suit, because he admitted to assault.

 

[Karazenpo]

I would like to also say this. If we keep this type of pressure on our police forces of being constantly browbeaten for decisions and reactions they make in seconds in dangerous situations because they will be fired or incarcerated then I'll tell you what will happen and it's already happening to some. They will UNDERREACT or even FAIL to REACT. They will HESITATE and as the late Ed Parker said, "He who hesitates, mediates, in a horizontal postion". An overreaction can get the suspect killed but an under reaction can get the officer(s) or innocent civillians killed. I realize we have to keep everyone in line and have checks and balances on our officers but we cannot make them paranoid and afraid to do their job because if this happens we'd all better go live in a closet, a locked closet at that! Respectfully, Joe

 

[TonyM.]

In the tape I was watching the bald headed goof was jamming the end of his nightstick repeatedly at selected sensitive targets with extreme force and from the expression on his face, hostility. I would say that he was deliberately trying to permanitely maim or kill the suspect. I would call this murder. As a former correctional officer with plenty of experience in subdueing violent residents without a nightstick I have to say that Iam sickened and extremely tired of this behavior. Something needs to be done about the police problem in this country. It's been out of contol for as long as I can remember, and thats not including the graft, strongarm protection, drug sales, juvenile rape and falsifying evidence problems that seem to be everywhere.

 

[Michelle]

Originally posted by TonyM.
In the tape I was watching the bald headed goof was jamming the end of his nightstick repeatedly at selected sensitive targets with extreme force and from the expression on his face, hostility. I would say that he was deliberately trying to permanitely maim or kill the suspect.

The coroner's report directly contradicts that.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Of course, it's always possible that this guy was an idiot--looked like it to me--AND the two officers handled him badly...noit because they hit him, but because they hit him poorly.

I'd still like to know what the jabs were for...looked a little Abner Djaillou to me...but don't get me wrong, sure looked like the cops needs to whomp that guy.

 

[arnisador]

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