British police arrest women for asking for their badge numbers June 23rd, 2009

[Tez3]

Judging situations from reports in the media is pretty pointless, I'll wait for the independent ( from the police that is) police complaints commision's report to come out.
The police here aren't government officials, they don't work for the government nor is their oath to the government.They may have good reasons for how they behaved, they may not, I'd like to hear their story before condemning them.
People arrested here do have the right to be silent.
"You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence"

 

[seasoned]

Judging situations from reports in the media is pretty pointless, I'll wait for the independent ( from the police that is) police complaints commision's report to come out.
The police here aren't government officials, they don't work for the government nor is their oath to the government.They may have good reasons for how they behaved, they may not, I'd like to hear their story before condemning them.
People arrested here do have the right to be silent.
"You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence"

Here, we make law enforcement jump through hoops, to hang that badge on. It is, in many cases, where news media and the citizenry, take much at face value, and discredit those same officers.

 

[arnisador]

J
The police here aren't government officials, they don't work for the government nor is their oath to the government.

OK...now I'm lost. They're not govt. employees, then? Do you mean that they're not national police?

 

[Tez3]

OK...now I'm lost. They're not govt. employees, then? Do you mean that they're not national police?

They come under the Home Office but their oath of alligience like the armed forces and the judiciary is to the Queen.

"I, of do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law."

Each county/area has a police force, all under the Home Office but independant of each other, we also have the Transport Police, the Parks Police and the Civil Nuclear Police and the Ministry of Defence police (yay!). We don't have a national police service as such.
The police forces in England and Wales come under the same laws, Scotland has it's own law as does Northern Ireland. The Isle of Man has it's own police and legal system under their own government as does the Channel Islands who's laws are more akin to the French than English.

 

[Deaf Smith]

So of the Queen orders the police to throw anyone she dislikes into prison they would obey? Can she order them to throw terrorist into Gitmo?

I mean if they plege alligience to the Queen, kind of like a Ceasar, well that's that.

Here the police, ALL police, and military, pledge to protect the Constitiution (well we hope they mean it.)

I find it strange the UK's 'Home Office' isn't part of the government. If it's not part of your government, who pays for it? How do the employees get their jobs? If it's the Queen, who is she accountable to?

Deaf

 

[Archangel M]

Eh...thats all a matter of semantics. Law Enforcement always represents a governmental authority of some sort or another

 

[Tez3]

So of the Queen orders the police to throw anyone she dislikes into prison they would obey? Can she order them to throw terrorist into Gitmo?

I mean if they plege alligience to the Queen, kind of like a Ceasar, well that's that.

Here the police, ALL police, and military, pledge to protect the Constitiution (well we hope they mean it.)

I find it strange the UK's 'Home Office' isn't part of the government. If it's not part of your government, who pays for it? How do the employees get their jobs? If it's the Queen, who is she accountable to?

Deaf

I have actually explained this on another thread.
The Home Office has a government minister in charge, I didn't say it wasn't part of the government. The work is done by the Civil Service who yes is also technically employed by the Crown. The government is Her Majesty's government as the Opposition is her Majesty's Opposition.
The tax payer pays for it of course, as pointed out we are subjects of the Crown.

The government balances the Queen, the Queen balances the government. She can't throw people into prison, the courts wouldn't allow it even though they are her courts, the government can't throw people into prison as your government has done because again the courts wouldn't allow it and if the Queen were to step in we'd have a huge constititional crisis which everyone will do anything to avoid however that doesn't mean to say if something came up she wouldn't interfere just because she hasn't done before. The Queen is known to advise Prime Ministers (who's title isn't Prime Minister it's actually First Lord of the Treasury, PM is an affectation) after all she has had a lot more experience than many of them.

Checks and balances! we have a nicely balanced system here which enables our democracy to carry on, yes we have glitches but on the whole the system works, it has evolved over a couple of thousand years and is actually very sophisicated.
As I said the police of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands come under their own governments as neither come under the UK.

 

[myusername]

Looks like that there is more to this story than I first thought! I was appalled when I first saw this video, it is clear on tape that the officer is not giving over his number and it is also relatively clear that an officer is standing on one of the ladies feet whilst denying that he is doing so.

However, with the additional info provided by Sukerkin and Tez and the possibility that this tape could have been edited the best thing to do would be to sit on the fence and wait for the complaint to be investigated before settling with my previous judgement. It just goes to show that you can't always take things at face value, I admit that politically my views are always better served by The Guardian newspaper than The Daily Mail but I do need to try and remember when reading these stories that The Guardian often has its own agenda too.

I have no problems with the police as I know a few lovely officers through my MA training. However, I have also encountered the odd arsehole as well. Which to be fair is to be expected as the police are only human, however problems of heavy handedness will come out when you have an arsehole in uniform! I wonder if we will see more of this coming to light now that we have a greater increase in mobile phone cameras!

 

[Tez3]

I read The Independant, less bias. I never read the red tops nor the Guardian or Mail.
It could well be that the coppers share some of the blame here but we'll have to wait and se what the commission says. If they are guilty it will come out and they'll most likely lose their jobs, pensions etc.

 

[Big Don]

I read The Independant, less bias. I never read the red tops nor the Guardian or Mail.

Like that great American Churchill said, we are separated by one language...
in other words, WTH are Red Tops? Not these I hope. *shudder*

 

[Tez3]

Like that great American Churchill said, we are separated by one language...
in other words, WTH are Red Tops? Not these I hope. *shudder*

Mmm Churchill's mother was American, he wasn't lol, she was one of the 'Buccaneers'
The red tops are The Sun,The Star, The News of the World. The tabloids who have their names on a red background.

 

[Big Don]

Mmm Churchill's mother was American, he wasn't lol, she was one of the 'Buccaneers'

By today's citizenship laws, and by act of congress he was an American

The red tops are The Sun,The Star, The News of the World. The tabloids who have their names on a red background.

Oh. That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Tez3]

By today's citizenship laws, and by act of congress he was an American
Oh. That makes sense. Thanks.

Fight you for him lol! He was however very much a product of the public school system and our aristocratic way of bring children up, wonder what he would have been like if he'd grown up in America?

 

[Big Don]

Fight you for him lol! He was however very much a product of the public school system and our aristocratic way of bring children up, wonder what he would have been like if he'd grown up in America?

Ooh! Good one. I wonder if he'd have been as funny.

 

[Tez3]

Ooh! Good one. I wonder if he'd have been as funny.

The way he was brought up (the aristocratic way ie abandoned to nannies and boarding schools) certainly teaches resilance and the value of a sense of humour!
You know he was a Liberal as well as a Tory? Liberal as in the time honoured British way.

 

[Big Don]

The way he was brought up (the aristocratic way ie abandoned to nannies and boarding schools) certainly teaches resilance and the value of a sense of humour!
You know he was a Liberal as well as a Tory? Liberal as in the time honoured British way.

I've even read a few of his books

 

[Tez3]

Having had time to really look at the video, which has obviously been edited as bits don't follow on, I don't see beyond not telling them their numbers (which may have been their instructions) what the police have done wrong there. As I explained on another thread wherever possibly police are required to use specific methods of moving demonstrators/suspects/prisoners etc, this is why so many officers are used, that's Home Office guidelines in place.
The women claimed she was choked, she wasn't, as myusername said, it was a mastoid hold, it's been changed recently, it used to be first finger under the nose pushing up and the thumb on the mastoid bone, painful but harmless. Now it's just the hold against the mastoid to save the officers being bitten.
Taking photographs of police officers isn't illegal but I think many officers as perhaps many of you will, might prefer not to be photographed. The bobbies who patrol around London tourist spots will always oblige but understandably perhaps the Special Branch wouldn't want to have their photos taken!
Taking photos of government buildings and MOD sites has always come under the Official Secrets Act dating probably from when photography was invented! MOD sites have notices stating this fact all along their fencelines so it shouldn't be a surprise and they aren't secret.

If you go on FIT Watch's website you will see they have the numbers of the police officers so they must have been displaying them somewhere which gives a lie to the fact they weren't displaying them. They also post up
" FIT Watch can be done by anyone and can be as passive or as confrontational as you wish. "
http://fitwatch.blogspot.com/

I should point out that police surveillance including CCTV, cameras and filming has gone a long way to stop the appalling football violence we suffered here. We have also recently been suffered from violance at big conferences, not by genuine protestors but by people who come specifically to commit acts of violence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p-yiJaiHNg&feature=related

In London where the police aren't wearing riot gear and aren't protected.

Anti Nato riots in France.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_dRTcSLjQk&feature=related

One thing you may or may not be surprised about is how many photographs of the same people pop up across Europe in these situations.

 

[Big Don]

One thing you may or may not be surprised about is how many photographs of the same people pop up across Europe in these situations.

Small group of traveling troublemakers?

 

[Tez3]

Small group of traveling troublemakers?

I think it's more that they are an organised group or even an organisation. They are predominantly far left groups ( thats by yours and our definition of left) and groups dedicated to bringing down governments regardless of whether they are democratic or not, I suspect strongly that the FIT Watch people who have complained about the police here are part of them or are funded by these anarchist groups.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ers-and-what-exactly-do-they-want-674375.html


Europe has a long history of anarchist activists. Google 'European anarchists' and you'll have several pages, here's a couple.

http://www.afed.org.uk/
http://www.italiansrus.com/articles/ourpaesani/redbrigade.htm

 

[Cryozombie]

The way I see it, and I'm no loyal fan of the Po-Po myself, but...

If you poke the bear... you have to expect it to bite your hand clean off.

And this group seems to be carrying some sticks...