The aikido thing

[Gerry Seymour]

Fair enough and people can discuss whatever they want.

The problem is this: when people with little or no aikido background discuss how to improve aikido, what they are really discussing is how to make it into what they already do. Underneath it all, the BJJ guy wants to turn it into a variety of BJJ, the Kyokushin guy wants to turn it into a variant of Kyokushin, etc.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but if the opinion is uninformed, the opinion is worthless.

That is what most folks will do - that, or something they wish existed that isn't really Aikido. The latter is probably more of what I end up doing, even though I have more grasp of (Ueshiba's) Aikido than most would. That still highlights what people think Aikido is and what they wish it would be (to suit them better). Might never change Aikido, but it can be useful when thinking about what folks like in their training.

There would be some who would like to see Aikido go quite the opposite direction - more away from any kind of combat effectiveness, and more into the study of ki, philosophy, and character development. I think that's a lot of what happened with Tohei's Aikido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do your guys think that "leg skill" can enhance the Aikido system?

Not in and of itself - it wouldn't fit well if it were simply cobbled on. But doing the work to blend it in - adjusting entry and finding how to fit leg sweeps, etc. with Aikido's core movement - would be a useful exercise toward rediscovering the combat roots of the art.

 

[drop bear]

Not in and of itself - it wouldn't fit well if it were simply cobbled on. But doing the work to blend it in - adjusting entry and finding how to fit leg sweeps, etc. with Aikido's core movement - would be a useful exercise toward rediscovering the combat roots of the art.

I am stunned Aikido doesn't already do leg sweeps though. It just seems so Aikidoy

 

[Martial D]

I am stunned Aikido doesn't already do leg sweeps though. It just seems so Aikidoy

I'm not. Leg sweeps work.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not. Leg sweeps work.

Yeah. But Aikido don't do them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok, but you are suggesting it ought to proceed with things that are more akin to Shuai Chiao and less typical of aikido.

Shuai Chiao is not the only style that has foot sweep. Judo, Karate, long fist, preying mantis, ... all have foot sweep. To suggest to add foot sweep into Aikido is not trying to say which style is better but to say, "Why is foot sweep not used in Aikido?"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am stunned Aikido doesn't already do leg sweeps though. It just seems so Aikidoy

I’m not sure why they aren’t in there. Maybe they just don’t work close enough for those to be a fit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I’m not sure why they aren’t in there. Maybe they just don’t work close enough for those to be a fit.

A: Why didn't you use hook punch, upper cut, roundhouse kick, foot sweep in your sparring?
B: Those are not in my MA system.
A: Why do you allow your MA system to set such restriction on you?
B: ???

 

[Flying Crane]

Shuai Chiao is not the only style that has foot sweep. Judo, Karate, long fist, preying mantis, ... all have foot sweep. To suggest to add foot sweep into Aikido is not trying to say which style is better but to say, "Why is foot sweep not used in Aikido?"

You like foot sweep, from your other training; that makes sense. How much experience do you have with aikido? There may be a good reason they do not use foot sweep (if that is even true, which I do not know).

Whether you realize it or not, or simply do not wish to admit it, you think that the way to “fix” aikido is to make it like the system you do. That is not fixing aikido, that is just doing Shuai Chiao. If you like Shuai Chiao, then just do Shuai Chiao and don’t worry about “fixing” aikido.

Seriously, how much more cowbell do you think it needs?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A: Why didn't you use hook punch, upper cut, roundhouse kick, foot sweep in your sparring?
B: Those are not in my MA system.
A: Why do you allow your MA system to set such restriction on you?
B: ???

You’ve moved from discussing a system to a single person.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You’ve moved from discussing a system to a single person.

That person can be the Aikido system.

 

[drop bear]

I’m not sure why they aren’t in there. Maybe they just don’t work close enough for those to be a fit.

It even seems to fit in the whole Aikido ethos.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah. But Aikido don't do them.

Exactly

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not. Leg sweeps work.

Ice cold.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That person can be the Aikido system.

I disagree. What one person does/doesn't do is not a way of defining the system. There are things I do that are not part of the NGA system. If I went and studied BJJ, I'd certainly still have in my bag a bunch of stuff not from BJJ - that doesn't suddenly make them BJJ (though if they work in that context, the folks around me will probably absorb them into BJJ).

 

[Yokozuna514]

If I went and studied BJJ, I'd certainly still have in my bag a bunch of stuff not from BJJ - that doesn't suddenly make them BJJ (though if they work in that context, the folks around me will probably absorb them into BJJ).

Off the topic a little but I found this statement interesting. I come from the school of thought that if I am training in something new, I need to 'empty my cup' to be able to comprehend what is being taught to me. If I come in to the training with the perspective that I can use what I have learned from somewhere else, I may miss the subtleties of the lessons given. Not to say we can be separated from our past experiences but I believe one of the challenges of picking up a new understanding of an MA is to immerse oneself in the lessons and to NOT allow past experiences to colour them until such time as you have mastered the basics.

 

[Martial D]

Off the topic a little but I found this statement interesting. I come from the school of thought that if I am training in something new, I need to 'empty my cup' to be able to comprehend what is being taught to me. If I come in to the training with the perspective that I can use what I have learned from somewhere else, I may miss the subtleties of the lessons given. Not to say we can be separated from our past experiences but I believe one of the challenges of picking up a new understanding of an MA is to immerse oneself in the lessons and to NOT allow past experiences to colour them until such time as you have mastered the basics.

BJJ is different in it's philosophical core than most systems though.

Most systems are a proprietary set of interconnected techniques and the (sometimes) strategies to use them.

BJJ is just an objective, or series of objectives. Get it to the ground, get superior position, get a submission. The best bjj techniques, or rather, the most effective bjj, is one that uses the most effective techniques. The origin and history of them isn't too important.

 

[Yokozuna514]

BJJ is different in it's philosophical core than most systems though.

Most systems are a proprietary set of interconnected techniques and the (sometimes) strategies to use them.

BJJ is just an objective, or series of objectives. Get it to the ground, get superior position, get a submission. The best bjj techniques, or rather, the most effective bjj, is one that uses the most effective techniques. The origin and history of them isn't too important.

I'm not quite sure we are talking about the same thing. I only meant to say, that I feel it is best to go into a MA with no preconceived notions from other systems you have trained in.

I'm not certain if BJJ is any more different in its philosophical core than most systems. Never thought of it in those terms. On the surface, I would think every system can be described equally by stating they have an objective or series of objectives. I would also tend to agree that the origin and history isn't important but then again, I think I am missing the context of this statement so I'm not 100% sure if I agree or disagree with this final thought.

 

[Hanzou]

Bjj is a very eclectic system. Essentially if it works, and fits within Bjj's general objectives, it will be adopted. For example, if Aikido had some wrist locks that would make established positions stronger or weaker, Bjj would absorb it and make it its own.

Just like what happened with leg locks about 10 years ago. For whatever reason though, Wrist Locks never really caught fire in Bjj circles like leg locks did.

 

[Martial D]

I'm not quite sure we are talking about the same thing. I only meant to say, that I feel it is best to go into a MA with no preconceived notions from other systems you have trained in.

I'm not certain if BJJ is any more different in its philosophical core than most systems. Never thought of it in those terms. On the surface, I would think every system can be described equally by stating they have an objective or series of objectives. I would also tend to agree that the origin and history isn't important but then again, I think I am missing the context of this statement so I'm not 100% sure if I agree or disagree with this final thought.

Oh no, I get you alright. I agree with the point of using an empty cup to learn new techniques.

My point is that with bjj that isn't as important. If you have other stuff that works in a roll, it's helpful to bring it with you.