Tenents of Taekwondo

[SahBumNimRush]

1. Courtesy (Ye Lu)- To be polite to one another and show respect
2. Integrity (Yom Chi)- Honesty- knowing right from wrong and doing right
3. Perseverance (In Nae)- Never give up
4. Self-control (Guk Gi)- To control your emotions, physical abilities and actions
5. Indomitable spirit (Baekjul Boolgool)- Unable to be tamed or conquered

As has been noted by moderator and member alike, there have been some rather heated discussions here in the TKD section as well as around the board. Perhaps that is just the nature of things in this type of venue, but it doesn't necessarrily need to be that way. I would like to think that all of us are passionate about a like-minded pursuit i.e. the martial arts. I would also like to thing that we can all get along and even in disagreement we can be respectful and separate the individual from the issue. And even in disagreement we can build up and edify one another. I think we are all capable of doing that with a little effort. Perhaps this can be the section of the board that is the most polite, even when we disagree. Is this not the first, and perhaps the most important of the five tenents?

Often times we post, thinking it is a pretty good post (and sometimes a 'gotcha' post) but the proper tone doesn't quite come across as intended. Sometimes we hit the 'submit' a minute before we should perhaps with a knee-jerk response. Perhaps we don't try as hard to edify as we do to tear down. Perhaps we can be better than that? Particularly with so many instructors on the board that should take the position of leading by example.

With this in mind, perhaps those that agree can chime in with a demonstration of their commitment to 'be polite to one another and show respect'. I will make this committment. And I will go one step further, if I've pissed someone off then let's discuss it calmly with mutual respect and an eye towards resolution. Post here, sent me a pm or email me. I'm accessible and available. Better to seek a friend than make an enemy.

Who else can get on board with this proposal?

While I do my best to follow these, there is no tangible reward for doing so and can be very difficult to abide by. Therefore, one must follow these for its own merit. I do not judge those who do not, but I do agree this board may be more productive and civilized if everyone followed it a bit more closely.. .

 

[Gemini]

While I do my best to follow these, there is no tangible reward for doing so and can be very difficult to abide by. Therefore, one must follow these for its own merit. I do not judge those who do not, but I do agree this board may be more productive and civilized if everyone followed it a bit more closely.. .

I do my best to avoid "Talking trash to the garbage around you" (as described by Beck), but sometimes become guilty of it myself. I figure as long as I continue to try to hold myself accountable, I don't beat myself up to bad. Just try to do better moving forward. After all these years, I've recently found the Ignore button to be a useful tool in that regard. Lead us not into temptation...

 

[StudentCarl]

While I do my best to follow these, there is no tangible reward for doing so...

Sir, with respect, I find very tangible reward:
Greater mastery of the five tenets helps a person prevent, avoid, or prevail in conflict.

• Being courteous reduces needless emotion and friction between people.
• Living with integrity roots your position in truth, reducing challenges and making defense easier.
• Training with perseverance builds skill and resilience.
• Mastering self-control helps you keep your head when others lose theirs.
• Having indomitable spirit drives you onward when others give in to fear and doubt.

(from my black belt essay)

 

[granfire]

Sir, with respect, I find very tangible reward:
Greater mastery of the five tenets helps a person prevent, avoid, or prevail in conflict.

• Being courteous reduces needless emotion and friction between people.
• Living with integrity roots your position in truth, reducing challenges and making defense easier.
• Training with perseverance builds skill and resilience.
• Mastering self-control helps you keep your head when others lose theirs.
• Having indomitable spirit drives you onward when others give in to fear and doubt.

(from my black belt essay)

Well, it's not tangible, but certainly the better way to go through life.

Currently you don't get rich by playing nice and by the rules.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Sir, with respect, I find very tangible reward:
Greater mastery of the five tenets helps a person prevent, avoid, or prevail in conflict.

• Being courteous reduces needless emotion and friction between people.
• Living with integrity roots your position in truth, reducing challenges and making defense easier.
• Training with perseverance builds skill and resilience.
• Mastering self-control helps you keep your head when others lose theirs.
• Having indomitable spirit drives you onward when others give in to fear and doubt.

(from my black belt essay)

While I agree with the benefits these tenets provide, these, as granfire stated are not tangible benefits. These tenets are, at the very least in part, rooted in Confucian ideals.

"Behind Confucius' pursuit of the ideal moral character lies the unspoken, and therefore, unquestioned, assumption that the only purpose a man can have and also the only worthwhile thing a man can do is to become as good a man as possible. This is something that has to be pursued for its own sake and with complete indifference to success or failure." ~ The Anelects of Confucius

Unlike capitalist models or religous teachings, living the tenets of taekwondo, as well as Confucian ideals, is not a path that is focused on rewards either in this world or in the next.

 

[shesulsa]

I find it curious some people experience no tangible reward for good behavior. Do you not achieve a sense of self-satisfaction, a feeling of self-worth, self-honor (for through these things we learn to give these in turn to others) an overall sense of well-being, of a camaraderie with others that in turn grows the intentions of ... budo, if you will?

Peace? The sense of being a good person? The acceptance of wisdom from seeing deeper and acting better?

Really? These are not tangible rewards for most? Are we so jaded, so insensitive, so conditioned, so competitive? Must we have the sense of power-over or a rank or a certificate from a world organization or the last word to feel appropriately rewarded?!?

*sigh*

I must do some T'ai Chi ....

 

[StudentCarl]

I suppose the tangible reward is a matter of interpretation, as it is often the avoidance or calm resolution of a situation that could have been worse. If you block with your arm, you feel the force that you stopped--so it's tangible. If you use good footwork and your opponent hits only air, you've done better. When you take the high road you don't know how nasty the low road might have become.

I believe that living by the tenets is as much self-defense as technique is. I wish I had my Sun-tzu handy for a tasty quote, as he believed the same. If nothing else, I think better health through lower stress level is tangible.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I would like to clarify that I see immense benefit in the tenets of Taekwondo, and I am somewhat playing devils advocate here.

IF the reward of living a moral life was recognized by all to be so great, we would not have people like we do in Washington, people like we do on Wall Street, people like we do in our prisons (*note this is a broad sweeping generalization, and I understand there are those in these positions who do follow a moral code on some level).

But these professions/situations/consequences draw people to these positions for tangible reasons, i.e. wealth. By tangible I am referring to material, palpable rewards. I understand that there are definitions of tangible put meaning on immaterial things, but for this case it is not what I am referring to.

For example:
Tangible Benefit: - It is a benefit to a person or organization which can be felt and touched. It is a real benefit which is straight forward. Ex: Saving money Intangible Benefit: - It is an indirect benefit which can't be felt or touched. Ex: Saving time

Society appears to be more and more driven by material motivators, and less and less by moral motivators. IMO, this is yet another reason why traditional martial arts are so very important to our society.


​

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I find it curious some people experience no tangible reward for good behavior. Do you not achieve a sense of self-satisfaction, a feeling of self-worth, self-honor (for through these things we learn to give these in turn to others) an overall sense of well-being, of a camaraderie with others that in turn grows the intentions of ... budo, if you will?

Peace? The sense of being a good person? The acceptance of wisdom from seeing deeper and acting better?

Again, these are not material rewards of moral behavior/actions.

Really? These are not tangible rewards for most? Are we so jaded, so insensitive, so conditioned, so competitive? Must we have the sense of power-over or a rank or a certificate from a world organization or the last word to feel appropriately rewarded?!?

This is essentially what I was attempting to highlight, albeit in the context of motivations outside of martial arts. I put a very high value on the moral culture of Taekwondo, but in playing devils advocate, I am attempting to gain some insight into why, we as martial artists are differently motivated than others (again, broad sweeping generalization, I know.. .)

 

[StudentCarl]

Currently you don't get rich by playing nice and by the rules.

It's an interesting belief that the path to riches is at other peoples' expense and by breaking rules. I'm curious whether you really believe that, or whether you mean that pushovers and conformists seldom get ahead. I don't think you have to be rude or mean-spirited and a cheat to get rich (if that's the goal).

I don't think being courteous means you can not be assertive or direct. I also think it's possible to excel within the rules (if they are reasonable), though not always by taking the well-traveled path.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It's an interesting belief that the path to riches is at other peoples' expense and by breaking rules. I'm curious whether you really believe that, or whether you mean that pushovers and conformists seldom get ahead. I don't think you have to be rude or mean-spirited and a cheat to get rich (if that's the goal).

I don't think being courteous means you can not be assertive or direct. I also think it's possible to excel within the rules (if they are reasonable), though not always by taking the well-traveled path.

Donald Trump is a perfect example (note the sarcasm)!

In all seriousness, I agree with you, but it boils down to focus. Is your focus on becoming "rich," or is your focus on being the best moral person you can be. Your focus dictates which goal takes the back seat to the other.

 

[StudentCarl]

I would like to clarify that I see immense benefit in the tenets of Taekwondo, and I am somewhat playing devils advocate here.

IF the reward of living a moral life was recognized by all to be so great, we would not have people like we do in Washington, people like we do on Wall Street, people like we do in our prisons (*note this is a broad sweeping generalization, and I understand there are those in these positions who do follow a moral code on some level).

But these professions/situations/consequences draw people to these positions for tangible reasons, i.e. wealth. By tangible I am referring to material, palpable rewards. I understand that there are definitions of tangible put meaning on immaterial things, but for this case it is not what I am referring to.

For example:
Tangible Benefit: - It is a benefit to a person or organization which can be felt and touched. It is a real benefit which is straight forward. Ex: Saving money Intangible Benefit: - It is an indirect benefit which can't be felt or touched. Ex: Saving time

Society appears to be more and more driven by material motivators, and less and less by moral motivators. IMO, this is yet another reason why traditional martial arts are so very important to our society.


​

I understand your point and agree in general. I think these values are taught by example, and we need all the positive role models possible. I think modern and traditional martial arts and sports have much to offer depending on the nature of the leader and the instruction. I think the person matters more than the content.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I think the person matters more than the content.

To a large extent, I agree. I've seen many instructors pervert the meanings of the tenets and moral teachings of the martial arts (either through not fully understanding the meaning of content, or consciously "adding their own interpretation"). This can and often does a good deal of harm to the development of the students/athletes.

This extends beyond just the moral character to include techniques.

 

[StudentCarl]

Donald Trump is a perfect example (note the sarcasm)!

In all seriousness, I agree with you, but it boils down to focus. Is your focus on becoming "rich," or is your focus on being the best moral person you can be. Your focus dictates which goal takes the back seat to the other.

I stayed away from commenting on whether riches should be the goal because I think it is possible to be both courteous and competitive without conflict between the two. I believe that moral people get ahead in the long run because those who are not eventually soil their own nest. As for Trump, being brash and loud is a valid strategy (Sun-Tzu, Musashi), as is being respectful and courteous.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I stayed away from commenting on whether riches should be the goal because I think it is possible to be both courteous and competitive without conflict between the two. I believe that moral people get ahead in the long run because those who are not eventually soil their own nest. As for Trump, being brash and loud is a valid strategy (Sun-Tzu, Musashi), as is being respectful and courteous.

Tactics are one thing and motivation is another. You can be brash and loud, while following the tenets of TKD, but you have to be very conscious of courtesy and self-control, so it's tricky. However, if greed is your motivation, you may be willing to perform bend or break the moral code to achieve your goal, which The Donald obviously is willing to do. Is he smart? Certainly. Is he successful? Certainly. Is he motivated by moral character? I doubt it.

I'd like to note that I certainly do not strictly live by the "code." But it does influence my actions on a daily basis. After all, there is the Ideal and then there is the Practical.

 

[StudentCarl]

I'd like to note that I certainly do not strictly live by the "code." But it does influence my actions on a daily basis. After all, there is the Ideal and then there is the Practical.

I can't claim to live it strictly either. I do my best to avoid putting myself in situations where getting a result requires compromising my values. If what's 'practical' is opposed to such fundamental ideals, either I screwed up or am being attacked in some way.

Thank you for the interesting conversation sir.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

1. Courtesy (Ye Lu)- To be polite to one another and show respect
2. Integrity (Yom Chi)- Honesty- knowing right from wrong and doing right
3. Perseverance (In Nae)- Never give up
4. Self-control (Guk Gi)- To control your emotions, physical abilities and actions
5. Indomitable spirit (Baekjul Boolgool)- Unable to be tamed or conquered

As has been noted by moderator and member alike, there have been some rather heated discussions here in the TKD section as well as around the board. Perhaps that is just the nature of things in this type of venue, but it doesn't necessarrily need to be that way. I would like to think that all of us are passionate about a like-minded pursuit i.e. the martial arts. I would also like to thing that we can all get along and even in disagreement we can be respectful and separate the individual from the issue. And even in disagreement we can build up and edify one another. I think we are all capable of doing that with a little effort. Perhaps this can be the section of the board that is the most polite, even when we disagree. Is this not the first, and perhaps the most important of the five tenents?

Often times we post, thinking it is a pretty good post (and sometimes a 'gotcha' post) but the proper tone doesn't quite come across as intended. Sometimes we hit the 'submit' a minute before we should perhaps with a knee-jerk response. Perhaps we don't try as hard to edify as we do to tear down. Perhaps we can be better than that? Particularly with so many instructors on the board that should take the position of leading by example.

With this in mind, perhaps those that agree can chime in with a demonstration of their commitment to 'be polite to one another and show respect'. I will make this committment. And I will go one step further, if I've pissed someone off then let's discuss it calmly with mutual respect and an eye towards resolution. Post here, sent me a pm or email me. I'm accessible and available. Better to seek a friend than make an enemy.

Who else can get on board with this proposal?

Been on board with this for far longer than I have been on this board. Happy to support the effort.

To those of you who immediately got defensive and insinuated that you had reason not be on board, citing perceived wrongs relating to your organization or organizational leader/founder, take this a fresh beginning and stop looking for a fight or looking for insult in every post by those of different orgs.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Whoops

Thanks for catching that!

While we're on that subject of Taekwondo's tenants, I hear that Courtesy, Integrity and Self Control have been filing complaints about Indomitable Spirit's noise level, though perseverance has refrained from doing so, perfering to persevere inspite of it all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You ran an arguement on an internet forum past your attourney??? Hope you didn't have to actually pay for that.

As far as PM's go, unless there is some pressing reason to the contrary (such as both parties agreeing), private messages should generally remain private. I have had correspondence with Glenn, Twin Fist, Master Stoker, and others on MT. While such correspondence has been largely positive, or at least not negative, I do not share any of it with the public. If attourneys are involved, then all the more reason to not air the details publicly.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I would not call it an arguement at all. I would say a misunderstanding. My legal representation is for my profession, as such, running a question by them doesn't cost me anything. Actually, most of any legal service I would need is already covered. In keeping with the 'courtesy to all' scope of the thread I figured if this was important enough for Master Cole to contact me then it was important enough to check into. If I've misunderstood what he has posted then a simple clarification is all that is needed and I will be the first to thank him for it. That way future misunderstandings can be avoided and a real effort for mutual respect can be made. Master Cole strikes me as the sort of fellow that is passionate about what he does. He also strikes me as someone that can accept a hand in friendship with an eye towards a fresh start between us (or anyone here that has an 'issue' with anyone else).

This is why I indicated some things he has done that I don't appreciate. I could hold a grudge or whatever, but better to simply ask, 'why did you post this? Was it really necessary? Did you really mean this?" And if I've posted something he doesn't like or needs a clarification on then lets discuss it with an eye towards a polite resolution. This is a win-win and a way to lead by example.