Techniques And Conditioned Fighters

[Xue Sheng]

Oh really? Is that what always happens?

Well no.... it kind of didn't happen that way in the Cung Le's last fight against Frank Shamrock.

Cung Le broke Frank Shamrock's arm with a kick.... and I believe it was a side kick too. Frank did not parry or side step and go for a choke or a takedown.

 

[jks9199]

Well no.... it kind of didn't happen that way in the Cung Le's last fight against Frank Shamrock.

Cung Le broke Frank Shamrock's arm with a kick.... and I believe it was a side kick too. Frank did not parry or side step and go for a choke or a takedown.

Shamrock tried to block Le's round kick with his arm in a weak position, and the kick caught it right...

 

[Skpotamus]

Oh really? Is that what always happens?

Maybe this is only the result if a fighter not trained in kicking tries a side kick.

I might say that a trained kicker would impale the would-be parry/sidestepper resulting in a knockdown and stunned solar plexus. But then, I would just be making claim based on bias when in reality there are a LOT of factors which determine what really ends up happening when two fighters face off.

No it's not what always happens hence me using the word PROBABLY, but when it has happened, it's been pretty catastrophic.

See Evan Tanner vs Tito Ortiz for an example of someone throwing a sidekick, having it parryed and getting slammed unconsious.

Travis Fulton parried Jeremy Bullock's flying side kick in a mma competition and then broke his back with a slam. (funny story, Fulton agreed to not strike during the fight while his opponent could)

Mark Smith parried a step through side kick by Rich Santoro, got his back, took him down and armbarred him at a HooknShoot Rising, I beleive Santoro was a fairly high ranking Hapkidoka at the time.

Saying Frank Shamrock couldn't parry all the sidekicks from the best sidekicker in San Shou isn't saying a lot. Especially since Frank Shamrock has never been accused of having good standup skills. He did however get Le's back at one point when Le missed a spinning side kick (15 seconds in

, and got his back again when le missed a lead leg sidekick at 1:25 (shamrock sidestepped), he didn't follow up with anything, which was odd since Shamrock didnt' seem to try to take the fight to the ground at all, but he got Le's back several times) . His arm got broken because he was blocking all head height round kicks with a single forearm... or his head.

Take a look at

a shootboxing match between Jens Pulver (MMA fighter known for his standup skills) vs Dai Chang Liang. Liang throws quite a few sidekicks at pulver, most of which get parried and see pulver stepping in and countering effectively. When the sidekick does land, pulver seems completely unfazed. Liang is the 2004 Sanda World Champion btw.

Bas Rutten vs Jason Delucia, Delucia used the side kick quite a bit early in his career, then quit doing it. 7 seconds in, Delucia throws a sidekick, Rutten slaps it aside, steps in with a combo. at 1:00, Delucia throws a sidekick, it's parried and he gets a round kick to the head. At 1:07 he throws a high side kick to the head, Bas parries and steps in with a body combo.At 2:21, Rutten eats three sidekicks to the body in a row, and responds with a round kick to the head. At 3:02 Delucia tries another sidekick, that gets parried, and he takes another vicious body combo that puts him down. At 3:30, again Delucia goes to the body with a sidekick, which gets parried and he gets combo'ed on again resulting in a second knockdown.

Keep watching that fight, you get the idea...

 

[zDom]

Saying Frank Shamrock couldn't parry all the sidekicks from the best sidekicker in San Shou isn't saying a lot.

But Le is not just, IMO, "the best sidekicker in San Shou," but one of the ONLY examples of a skilled kicker I've seen in this type of sport.

Those other guys have no business trying a kick they aren't really proficient at using.

There is more to being a skilled kicker than learning the basic mechanics of a kick. A skilled kicker knows WHEN to throw it so it is effective.

Yea, there is no doubt, that unskilled kickers flinging their legs out in the general direction of their opponent are going to end up with a poor result.

Somebody who really knows how to use their feet will not just keep throwing kicks in the hopes that one will hit their opponent. They set them up — with their hands — and open up a real opportunity.

If they are committing their hands to parrying body kicks, they are leaving their heads wide open for punishing head strikes.

That is why I keep saying you aren't seeing skilled kickers in these events. They are all at the beginner level: swing your leg and hope it hits!

Skilled kickers create openings for their kicks; they link their hands with their kicks and their kicks with their hand strikes.

Hand feint + body kick. Body kick feint + hand to head strike.

Becoming a skilled kicker takes a significant time investment, however, so you just aren't going to see many in these types of events.

 

[Skpotamus]

So where are all these highly skilled side kickers and what competitions are they fighting in? MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.

If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue? Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.

 

[sgtmac_46]

So where are all these highly skilled side kickers and what competitions are they fighting in? MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.

If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue? Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.

True......though I would caution against judging the effectiveness of every technique against MMA. Though it's generally a decent thermostat of technique, there are elements that exist in the real world that do not exist in MMA, such as the general element of surprise. Two men in an MMA fight know there is going to be a fight, when it starts and when it stops.

A man on the street may use a technique on another man on the street that is extremely successful if he is unprepared for it that would not so effect someone standing across the ring waiting for the 'lets get it on' command.

So while MMA is a decent laboratory for what works and what doesn't, it is not the complete end all.


An example you might ask? Kicking another man in the testicles while he's not expecting it...then hitting him in the head with a pool cue......highly effective techniques not utilized in MMA......successful even against 'conditioned' athletes.

 

[zDom]

So where are all these highly skilled side kickers ...

There really aren't that many highly skilled side kickers, from what I've seen out there I've seen a LOT of people around here try or make a life out of martial arts. Maybe a couple thousand.

Of those, I figure about a dozen really "got it" and developed a really great sidekick (beyond the mechanics to the point that they had the timing to USE it well).

... and what competitions are they fighting in? MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.

Just because someone is a great fighter doesn't mean they want to fight in competitions. A lot of people train hard so they DON'T get beat up. Getting into a ring kind of defeats that purpose: no matter how good you are, you are GOING to get beat on at times.

As for the money, it really isn't there unless you take a long, hard path to the top. And even then, it isn't that great.

I mean, if Dana called me up today and said, "Scott, I'll give you $200,000 to get in the ring and show me what you can do" I suppose I might give it a shot. For that kind of money I could take time off of work, train to the level I'd need to be at to get in the ring, and even if I got beat on, I could pay for the medical bills and improve the quality of my life.

But he's not going to DO that. Naturally, they want fighters to prove themselves. How many fights do you have to go through before you even get to a $10,000 purse? A dozen?

And then there is the whole question of, "Do I really want to make my living beating people up and getting beat up?" And risk an injury that may take years to rehabilitate?

I spent years and years developing my kicking ability. I really don't want to get into a situation where I have somebody kicking at my knees for 15 minutes.

So I figure a lot of the guys who took the time to develop a great sidekick feel the same way about THEIR knees and, if they DO want to get into full contact, they pick a rule set that only allows kicks at the waist and above.

Cung Le is a trooper. I think you may get a couple other guys like him over the years: someone who had the talent and training to develop solid kicking AND decided they wanted to compete in full contact AND they wanted to risk letting people kick their knees.

But I'm thinking you won't get very many like him.

If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue? Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.

You may be right about this.

Or rather, there is too much of a required time investment to GET a sidekick that is highly effective.

If your goal is to get in an MMA ring while you are still young enough to recover from injuries, spending 3 to 6 years honing a sidekick may not be the best route to success when there are other techniques that have a better time invested-to-payoff ratio.

Heck, I can teach someone to do a low section roundhouse in 10 minutes. Give me two weeks with them and I can have them kicking as hard as anybody just about anyone I've seen in the pro MMA fights (GSP and Le being notable exceptions )

And learning a front kick would be a great time investment: easy to learn, easy to do from a boxing type stance. Saw a guy use just TWO front kicks in a UFC undercard match couple months back — was only a fair to poor front kick — and it messed up his opponent's whole game.

 

[zDom]

BTW, wish I could take the time to find/post some clips of some nice sidekicking in full contact matches.

Maybe I'll get around to that this weekend.

But I wanted to add something: anybody who is sidekicking to someone's abs isn't really using it well. That's as stupid as punching to someone's abs. I was no pro fighter, but even I could eat a sidekick on my abs to some extent if I let it knock me back.

Even around the dojang, where people aren't training to the level pro MMA fighters are, you can see that isn't going to be nearly as effective.

But hit someone right on the solar plexus or on the floating rib on the side of their torso: THEN you will get results.

But again, picking and hitting targets like that takes a lot of training. And timing. i.e., counter a jab with a sidekick right under their arm into their intercostals, for example.

 

[MJS]

Mike,

A couple of comments form my experience and observations.

I have trained with a guy that you could kick in the abs with a side kick and he would just take it. He was that solid and in that shape. But, not everyone is in the shape so it might be better on others.

I have also seen some pretty big guys that are FAT and really out of shape. I saw a guy do a turning kick and the guy just took it in the FAT and kept coming. When he got to me. I kicked him in the knees. He looked at me got mad and stated I was cheating. I laughed and kicked him again and when he tired to move to avoid the pain, I rushed him and knocked him down where he then tried to crawl under a car for protection. (* Only his head would fit nothing else would have. *) Many people were really impressed with how powerful my kicks must have been to get him down. They were not that great of kicks. They were average even counting my adrenaline. But it was an area he had no padding and also was easy to injure and he may have had knee pain already from his weight.

So as in anything, I used my knowledge of the body and my skill set as others at that time in my training and even now could have kicked him in the head, but that was not in my options. So, used techniques that I knew and could affect him in a manner I was intending.

I"ve had success with a sidekick against what I'd consider an overweight person. During a sparring session, he came in very aggressive, I timed the kick, and the result was him falling on his rear end. I've also had poor success with the same kick against someone who was very stocky in his build. He continued to move forward, which made me have to resort to using something else.

I guess it all comes down to picking the right target at the right time for the right situation.

 

[MJS]

So where are all these highly skilled side kickers and what competitions are they fighting in? MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.

If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue? Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.

Hmm...I have to go with SgtMac 46 on this one. Too many times, I've had discussions with MMA folks and they've stated the same things that you just did. So, because X move isn't used by this person, because X move isn't much use in MMA, I'm supposed to disregard that move completely? Sorry, but I disagree with that. What works for one person may not work well for someone else, so they're going to disregard it and say its a useless move. But perhaps I can make it work.

The odds of everyone in the world being in MMA shape are slim. Not saying that everyone is fat and out of shape, but I highly doubt the dirtbag thats going to mug me is going to look like Shamrock. Could it happen? Anythings possible, but I'd say its on the low end. If by chance I do end up facing someone in that good of shape, I'm not going to continue to do something that doesnt have any effect. So if I throw a sidekick and it has no effect due to his washboard abs, I'll resort to something else.

Of course, just because something doesnt have immediate results doesn't mean its no good. I will go back to Ruas and Varleans. Repeated kicks from Ruas took an eventual toll.

Then again, I'm not looking to roll around or fight for 20 min.

 

[MJS]

There is more to being a skilled kicker than learning the basic mechanics of a kick. A skilled kicker knows WHEN to throw it so it is effective.


Somebody who really knows how to use their feet will not just keep throwing kicks in the hopes that one will hit their opponent. They set them up — with their hands — and open up a real opportunity.


Skilled kickers create openings for their kicks; they link their hands with their kicks and their kicks with their hand strikes.

Hand feint + body kick. Body kick feint + hand to head strike.

Great points!! I'll go back as a reference to my post to Rich regarding my use of the sidekick. I obviously had some good timing in the first instance, due to the fact that the person I hit landed on their rear. The other guy...well, despite what I thought was good timing, was countered. A lesson learned.

Of course, to re-enforce what you say about timing...unless I missed it, viewing those clips that were posted, I didn't see any of those kicks being set up. Perhaps if they were, the results would have been different.

 

[chinto]

in a self defense situation I would not use spinning kicks, or kick high ever. to vulnerable to counter attack or other problems that might leave you in real trouble or even cost you your life. keep it simple, and keep any kicks low!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Good points above! ...just wanted to add this....most kicks will work when the opponent is hit ...at the same time the human body can take lots of punishment and each person will react differently.

Off course anyone who is more condiditon and is great shape and use to take lots of hits will survive better than most people.

A person who is learning boxing...finds the first 6-8 months most punches hurts....after that the body get use to those punishments and it actully hurts very little! Anyone can condition their body.

That is why "eyes" ,"nose".and most joints are great tarkets....breaking finger and toes....too! The groin...some people can take a hit..most can't

So againist condition fighters? ...best to use legs for running instead of kicking.....

Aloha ( perfer using car for escaping? ....usually can run faster than man..)

 

[JadeDragon3]

There was a discussion here recently in the MMA section on spinning kicks vs. non spinning kicks, and what role they play in the MMA ring. The question of their effectiveness against a conditioned fighter was brought up by another poster in that thread.

So, it led me to starting this thread, rather than sidetrack the discussion over there. Now, in everyday life, we see people of all shapes and sizes. Some are very overweight, some are in ok shape and others are in above average shape. These may/may not necessarily be pro fighters, but instead, people who are average Joes.

It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?

Addressing the comment about the side kick.....I have a pretty strong side kick. In fact it's my favorite technique to use on someone that is rushing in on me. I can leg press close to 1000 lbs. so I have a lot of power in it. I feel comfortable to say that a well planted side kick in the gut or the ribs would stop just about anyone long enough that I could follow up with something more devastating. I think that any techniques will work on a person, it just depends on where you hit the person at with the technique.