Teaching the student how to fight

[JowGaWolf]

What are your thoughts on this;

Overhead and Chest Punch
If I'm looking at the correct technique then you guys have actually seen me use both of these before. in sparring.

Pecking Crane
I'm not feeling it by the way they are using it in sparring. For me this would be a dirty move. It's similar to a move that I have pulled off before, not like a pro, but usable. With this my goal would be an eye poke or to hit the soft areas of the face. Probably get more mileage out of the eye poke. I would most likely use it when my opponent comes in lazy. I don't train this often so definitely wouldn't use it in a fight. I'm going to step out of my lane on this one a little or a lot. This move is not a head on fighting technique. It's meant to be used at an angle. so you don't get knocked out. First slip jabb with a hook parry, to interfere with the arms return which would get in your way, then poke your opponent in the or face if you have stone fingers.

Tiger's Claw
This one is doable in a fight, but I don't think the video shows it being used properly. I would never use it that way. Tiger Claw as I was taught is a snatch. So short explanation. I would palm strike your face then try to quickly pull your face off. It can also be use to attack certain muscles in tendons as well. When you see tiger claw conditioning used it's always a snatch motion not a striking with claw motion. The claw is used for pulling not swiping.

Punch the sky + Shoot the Spike hand.
This is just an uppercut followed by a straight right. The right is thrown while in a bow stance because you are slipping a punch. or a spear hand to the throat. It's doable, but I wouldn't use a spear hand unless I was 100% sure that spear hand is going to get in. Fingers vs incoming punches is a bad situation to be in.

Cat washes Face
Done it in sparring, used it when sparring against the Sanda school. Doable, easy to do, high percentage on people who like to throw more than one punch. I have it on video. Some of you have already seen it and didn't realize it. some of you may actually use it and don't realize it.. At the 2:02 mark you can see it fail because he didn't do it enough.

Punching though the sleeve.
Doable.. I have video of me using it.

I would have to see him in a sparring match to see if he abandons his kung fu. If he keeps it and uses the techniques then is fight training is decent or good and she should get better the more he does it. If he abandons the techniques then his training is wrong.. There were somethings I thought were wrong, but it looked as if he was probably teaching and not really trying to execute the techniques. Sort of how I get when I spar with beginners.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If in the WC form, to freeze the body and only move the palm up and down is for "conditioning the tendons", you can also say in the long fist form, this left arm movement is for "conditioning the shoulder joint".

If I can't even convince myself the proper MA application in a form, how can I teach others? This is why whenever I see a non-fighting move like this in a form, I just replace it by other fighting move.

May be I'm just not smart enough to figure out the secret application in that move.

lol. it's not your smarts. I'll be the arrogant one for you on this one. Based on how my body felt when I did that movement, I would throw it away and do the movement like it's used in application, because that's the movement I need to know, in order to understand the best way to apply it. I literally went into shadow boxing mode and tried to use it and I felt really off balance and weak. I was literally just all arm movement with no way to connect any part of my body to drive power.

 

[Graywalker]

Yeah, everone wants to use their high percentage moves instead of venturing out into unchartered waters.

True, but I myself have kickboxed, and had a few amateur fights, I have also done, some wing chun, 5 animal kung Fu, Kempo, Tai chi throughout my years. But Karate, and the techniques from kata, has literally saved my life on several occasions and that is why I focus on Karate, Kwon Bup, is well rounded and very usable. At least for me, I tend to go off of my own personal experience...it is the only way we truly know. Anything else is assumed knowledge. imo

 

[JowGaWolf]

In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata.

When you see something like that, then it's because they have not trained the technique properly. So when fight time comes, they abandon the technique. You know that they have abandoned their techniques because you never see the kung fu. When I spar, low or high intensity, it always looks like Jow Ga. It never looks like kickboxing.

 

[Punchy]

...I tend to go off of my own personal experience...it is the only way we truly know. Anything else is assumed knowledge. imo

Yep, unless a movement is natural to us it will never be reaction.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, everone wants to use their high percentage moves instead of venturing out into unchartered waters.

Light sparring is the only time you should go into uncharted waters because you are learning how to use something.. Competition and real fights is the worst time to learn how to use something. High percentage techniques are just techniques you can use really well. What is high percentage for you may be low percentage for other people. Even if you train the same system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I forgot one of the most important things when it comes to learning how to fight WC. This is the same rule for all systems. Make sure you spar against people outside of your system. Style A vs Style B. is the best way to learn how to fight. Style A vs Style A is only good when you have to fight someone from the same system. The probability that you'll fight someone from the same system is really low. For example, the chances that I'll get into a street fight with another Jow Ga practitioner is very low.

Pick the most popular fighting system or most effective system and spar against that. So for Wing Chun you should spar against, Muay Thai fighters, Wrestlers, Boxers, and Taekwondo. You will suck big time if you only do Style A vs Style A. One of the things that MMA effective is that they do a lot of Style A vs Style B encounters.

 

[Punchy]

Light sparring is the only time you should go into uncharted waters because you are learning how to use something.. Competition and real fights is the worst time to learn how to use something. High percentage techniques are just techniques you can use really well. What is high percentage for you may be low percentage for other people. Even if you train the same system.

I agree. Competition is not the place to pull something out of your hat.
Sparring in class however, should be about learning not winning, otherwise you'll never fully develop.

 

[Hanzou]

When you see something like that, then it's because they have not trained the technique properly. So when fight time comes, they abandon the technique. You know that they have abandoned their techniques because you never see the kung fu. When I spar, low or high intensity, it always looks like Jow Ga. It never looks like kickboxing.

No offense my friend, but when you spar, it looks like kickboxing as well.

To be fair, I’ve seen videos of Kung Fu masters fighting in the ring and in the rooftops, and they look like sloppy, slap fighting. So what you’re doing is an improvement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when you spar, it looks like kickboxing as well.

When my opponent

- switches stance, my back leg roundhouse kick will kick toward his chest without thinking.
- use jab/cross, I will use hook punch to knock his jab/hook down (anti-missile system).
- use cross, I will separate his arm away from his head (protect my center from inside out).
- doing nothing, I'll sweep his leading leg.
- ...

Do I fight like kickboxer?

When your opponent creates an opening, you attack through that open space. Both TMA and kickboxer all do the same way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No offense my friend, but when you spar, it looks like kickboxing as well.

To be fair, I’ve seen videos of Kung Fu masters fighting in the ring and in the rooftops, and they look like sloppy, slap fighting. So what you’re doing is an improvement.

ha ha ha.. I'm pretty sure I don't look like kickboxing. I'm way far from that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When my opponent

- switches stance, my back leg roundhouse kick will kick toward his chest without thinking.
- use jab/cross, I will use hook punch to knock his jab/hook down (anti-missile system).
- use cross, I will separate his arm away from his head (protect my center from inside out).
- doing nothing, I'll sweep his leading leg.
- ...

Do I fight like kickboxer?

When your opponent creates an opening, you attack through that open space. Both TMA and kickboxer all do the same way.

Hanzou just wants to get a rise out of me. If I spar like a kick boxer then all of the real kickboxers are doing it wrong lol

 

[drop bear]

I wouldn't know, I have never seen a sport fighter in an actual fight, so personally. I would have to say your wrong.

Plenty of it on line.

And we can compare wrestling street fights that seem to favor dlams and take downs with BJJ street fights that seem to favour submissions.

So we now have two different examples of people using the tools they are trained to street fight.

If I looked up boxing or kick boxing. We would tend to see more striking.

These are direct translations from training to application.

And the point is for any martial art you need something that demonstratively works. So the tools you use in class has to be able to stop a guy. So if say you fight with 16 oz gloves. You still need to be able to stop a guy with those gloves on. Regardless as to his intention to keep going.

So that if you are attacked you at least have something that will stop a guy.

Because that will transfer directly to self defence.

 

[jobo]

You know who also doesn't have harnesses?

Ballroom dancing.

Basically the same thing.

but dancing would be a marvelious traininng tool for ma,
dependent on the art and the dance to some extent

particularly if someone had poor motor , mobility,spacial awarness and timing skills, or someone who can dance would be a lit easier to teach as these skill are already well developed, but then the same can be said for soccer or rugby.or basketball

as such , if your correct and teaching kata is teaching dance it has great value

 

[wanderingstudent]

Overhead and Chest Punch
If I'm looking at the correct technique then you guys have actually seen me use both of these before. in sparring.

Pecking Crane
I'm not feeling it by the way they are using it in sparring. For me this would be a dirty move. It's similar to a move that I have pulled off before, not like a pro, but usable. With this my goal would be an eye poke or to hit the soft areas of the face. Probably get more mileage out of the eye poke. I would most likely use it when my opponent comes in lazy. I don't train this often so definitely wouldn't use it in a fight. I'm going to step out of my lane on this one a little or a lot. This move is not a head on fighting technique. It's meant to be used at an angle. so you don't get knocked out. First slip jabb with a hook parry, to interfere with the arms return which would get in your way, then poke your opponent in the or face if you have stone fingers.

Tiger's Claw
This one is doable in a fight, but I don't think the video shows it being used properly. I would never use it that way. Tiger Claw as I was taught is a snatch. So short explanation. I would palm strike your face then try to quickly pull your face off. It can also be use to attack certain muscles in tendons as well. When you see tiger claw conditioning used it's always a snatch motion not a striking with claw motion. The claw is used for pulling not swiping.

Punch the sky + Shoot the Spike hand.
This is just an uppercut followed by a straight right. The right is thrown while in a bow stance because you are slipping a punch. or a spear hand to the throat. It's doable, but I wouldn't use a spear hand unless I was 100% sure that spear hand is going to get in. Fingers vs incoming punches is a bad situation to be in.

Cat washes Face
Done it in sparring, used it when sparring against the Sanda school. Doable, easy to do, high percentage on people who like to throw more than one punch. I have it on video. Some of you have already seen it and didn't realize it. some of you may actually use it and don't realize it.. At the 2:02 mark you can see it fail because he didn't do it enough.

Punching though the sleeve.
Doable.. I have video of me using it.

I would have to see him in a sparring match to see if he abandons his kung fu. If he keeps it and uses the techniques then is fight training is decent or good and she should get better the more he does it. If he abandons the techniques then his training is wrong.. There were somethings I thought were wrong, but it looked as if he was probably teaching and not really trying to execute the techniques. Sort of how I get when I spar with beginners.

Which video are you referencing with these topics?

 

[Graywalker]

Plenty of it on line.

And we can compare wrestling street fights that seem to favor dlams and take downs with BJJ street fights that seem to favour submissions.

So we now have two different examples of people using the tools they are trained to street fight.

If I looked up boxing or kick boxing. We would tend to see more striking.

These are direct translations from training to application.

And the point is for any martial art you need something that demonstratively works. So the tools you use in class has to be able to stop a guy. So if say you fight with 16 oz gloves. You still need to be able to stop a guy with those gloves on. Regardless as to his intention to keep going.

So that if you are attacked you at least have something that will stop a guy.

Because that will transfer directly to self defence.

Yup, you can find videos of kicks and punches, used in Katas, what's your point? Sweeps, takedowns, found in Katas, you see in videos as well. Really, this is just silly. You are just expecting a step by step motion of the entire kata in a fight. You are never going to see that, because ...I will say this slowly, Katas....were ...never....intended...to ......be.....used....in....it's....exact..... sequence....for....a.....fight.

Why is this so hard for you to understand. They are a list of usable techniques, that enable someone to remember them.

Really guys and gals, you look foolish in thinking that kata would look the same in a fight, and you are nitpicking at what is taught to beginners to help them remember the techniques.

The actual use of these individual, techniques, will look different. It looks as if you have only seen and know about the beginning levels of kata training. I don't think many have ever made it past the first level of kata. You know, the manual part.

It's the exact sequence, in exact order, that you seem to think is how you use karate...this is simply a beginners ignorance and lack of real knowledge concerning most TMA's.

This is the fault of taking a non sport art, into the arena.

That is like saying the fundamentals that are taught step by step in BJJ should be followed exactly in the sequence it is taught when used in a fight...do you or can you even do this or do your techniques change for the situation.

Since this obviously doesn't happen, BJJ in training would be in the same category as karate...they don't look exactly the same, because they don't use it in sequence.

 

[Graywalker]

My guess, is that most Ex-TMA's that spout these things about Kata, learned in a competition oriented dojo, which admittedly removed a lot of real training from their curriculum for the joy of combat..

This subject will keep going in circles, due to basic ignorance (lacking in knowledge). I can see that now.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Which video are you referencing with these topics?

I'm commenting on the Video in Post #90 The other videos I mention about me doing the techniques are in videos that I've posted in MT before. Many which are no longer available at the moment.

 

[Hanzou]

Plenty of it on line.

And we can compare wrestling street fights that seem to favor dlams and take downs with BJJ street fights that seem to favour submissions.

Some of those wrestling street fights demonstrate why knowledge of ground fighting is important. While there were some knockouts from getting dumped on your head (highly dangerous btw, because you can end up in prison if that person dies or get permanent brain damage), some guys popped right back up from getting suplexed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?

This is the same statement runs through my head when I see the same thing. Why spend years with repetitive movement training only to abandon it in sparring. I only mention sparring here because if they abandon it in sparring then they will definitely abandon it when the real fight comes. In my mind that's the biggest insult that one can give to a fighting system that they claim to be good in and I hate seeing it. When I train students I force them to use it. If we train kung fu then that's the only thing we should see when sparring. As a teacher, having a student represent your school, only to abandon it, is embarrassing.

This always comes down to inadequate training aka, not using those techniques in fighting. Jabs, Haymakers, and kicking are linear. They don't take a lot of set up to use. But this isn't true with a lot of TMA techniques where techniques have to deployed a certain way. I can't just go out and swing my arms like a jab. That will just get me knocked out. I have to use good timing and have a good understanding of the technique I'm using and the movement of my opponent. Stuff like that is only learned by sparring and actually using it.

Most people spar to win, but you can't learn Kung Fu like that. The first 6 months of learning how to use a technique is going to be filled with a lot of failures and I always remind students that this is a reality of learning how to do anything. No one learns how to play the guitar or piano without having a lot of failures along the way. This is the same with learning to fight with a new technique. Failing is just part of learning. But if the student abandons the technique during the application setting then, they will never learn the technique.