Teaching the student how to fight

[Graywalker]

First move of Pinan 1 or 2, it varies depending on the school.

It's a step to the left, down block, step forward punch, but it's not a down block.

A ruffin (as itosu states) grabs your right wrist, you raise the left up by you right side, slide your arm down while stepping back, and breaking the ruffins hold.

The step back, cause the ruffin to do two things, be pulled towards you and react by pulling back, then you smash the wrist or break the grip and cause him to release.

The movements are designed, to defend against muggers or attackers that put their hands on you. It really is simple if you stop and think about the individual motions. Not the kata- as a whole.

I think this is where those that denounce kata, are lacking in experience and the actual knowledge of kata. But, I am not surprised, as most systems gave up on applications in the 60's 70's and 80's.

My original school, gave them up in the late 80's and focused more are competition.

Those who do Kata, have you ever asked yourself why the kata, if ever, rarely starts with a strike? You really just need to think about it.

Now when you do Kata, let some one grab your wrist or wherever, and then try the INDIVIDUAL movements from the Kata.

 

[Hanzou]

It is a template for techniques, used for fighting. Think about the various self defense techniques, and then put them in order, however you want, if you repeat the same techniques, the same way...you are using a template...or a kata. If you teach certain combinations of moves, and you rely on that sequence, you are basically doing Kata. IMO.

The word "Kata" translates to Template.

Okay, I have never seen anyone use those techniques in a fighting format in the way they're expressed by kata. In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?

 

[Graywalker]

Okay, I have never seen anyone use those techniques in a fighting format in the way they're expressed by kata. In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?

Why would you? Those are sport, and as stated earlier, it was never meant for sport.

Do you actually believe that when someone fights, they look exactly as they do when they train. Mauy Tai, has some sort of dancing to show what school they represent, they don't fight that way.

You seem to believe that kata is for fighting, it's not. Have you seen a kick in kata be used in a fight, have you seen a punch from kata, used in a fight. Basically, you are saying kicking and punching are useless, because it's in Kata.

This doesn't make any sense, I have never once seen BJJ in a fight...so it must be bogus training in it. Sure, I have seen it on YouTube in competition, but not used in reality, so therefore it must not work.

 

[Graywalker]

Or for that matter, a punching bag being used for training, I never see them use that in a fight. Speed bag, nope never seen it used.

Sarcasm

 

[drop bear]

Why would you? Those are sport, and as stated earlier, it was never meant for sport.

Do you actually believe that when someone fights, they look exactly as they do when they train. Mauy Tai, has some sort of dancing to show what school they represent, they don't fight that way.

You seem to believe that kata is for fighting, it's not. Have you seen a kick in kata be used in a fight, have you seen a punch from kata, used in a fight. Basically, you are saying kicking and punching are useless, because it's in Kata.

This doesn't make any sense, I have never once seen BJJ in a fight...so it must be bogus training in it. Sure, I have seen it on YouTube in competition, but not used in reality, so therefore it must not work.

Yes. Sports fighters fight like they train. Because what they train works.

It is not the case where years of preparation go out the window just because someone gets their first full speed punch.

 

[dvcochran]

Yeah but you compare that to being able to move a ball with your foot in a direction of your choosing. Which is pretty fundamental to soccer.

Being able to perform kata isn't fundamental to fighting.

No, not explicitly but it can refine the hell out of it.

 

[Punchy]

Okay, I have never seen anyone use those techniques in a fighting format in the way they're expressed by kata. In fact, Kung Fu and Karate guys when in fighting mode tend to fight almost exactly like kick boxers do, and kickboxing has zero kata. So if the end result of all of that kata practice is ending up looking like a kick boxer, why not just train the way kick boxers do and enhance your fighting ability?

This is going back to my pre WC days, but what the heck, no one else here is a WC guy so I'll fit right in.
I studied another style of CMA for 14 years before I took up WC.
This was the 80s when tournaments were still a pretty big deal.

My teachers began training in the late 60s when tournaments were huge, and as such, our fighting very much had a tournament look to it.

When I became an instructor I began really emphasizing applications from forms and we did a lot of drills to instill this in the students.

Over time my students started to move differently and fight differently from our sister schools.
It no longer looked like tournament fighting...there were throws, grabs, locks, numerous types of sweeps, elbows and knees plus more varied kicks and hand techniques.

The forms were not the focus but the jumping off point.

 

[Hanzou]

Why would you? Those are sport, and as stated earlier, it was never meant for sport.

I'm not talking about sport, I'm talking about when they're fighting in class (sparring) and supposedly applying their techniques. They look no different than kick boxers.

Do you actually believe that when someone fights, they look exactly as they do when they train. Mauy Tai, has some sort of dancing to show what school they represent, they don't fight that way.

Muay Thai practitioners don't spend 50% of their training time doing that dance either. Muay Thai practitioners spend the majority of their time drilling techniques and sparring each other. And yes, when they fight they look exactly like they train.

You seem to believe that kata is for fighting, it's not. Have you seen a kick in kata be used in a fight, have you seen a punch from kata, used in a fight. Basically, you are saying kicking and punching are useless, because it's in Kata.

Where did I say kicks and punches are useless? In karate you don't learn kicks and punches from kata alone, you also drill them. In truth, when I sparred I defaulted to the techniques I drilled, not the techniques I was supposedly doing in kata.

This doesn't make any sense, I have never once seen BJJ in a fight...so it must be bogus training in it. Sure, I have seen it on YouTube in competition, but not used in reality, so therefore it must not work.

Enjoy. If you need more, let me know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You seem to believe that kata is for fighting, it's not.

The following clip proves that some forms are designed exactly for fighting.

Don't want to turn this thread into non-WC thread.

 

[Hanzou]

This is going back to my pre WC days, but what the heck, no one else here is a WC guy so I'll fit right in.
I studied another style of CMA for 14 years before I took up WC.
This was the 80s when tournaments were still a pretty big deal.

My teachers began training in the late 60s when tournaments were huge, and as such, our fighting had very much have a tournament look to it.

When I became an instructor I began really emphasizing applications from forms and we did a lot of drills to instill this in the students.

Over time my students started to move differently and fight differently from our sister schools.
It no longer looked like tournament fighting...there were throws, grabs, locks, numerous types of sweeps, elbows and knees plus more varied kicks and hand techniques.

The forms were not the focus but the jumping off point.

What are your thoughts on this;

 

[JowGaWolf]

Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.

A little diversity is good, especially when training how to fight. Maybe someone's training methods will help the OP find what he's looking for or give a realistic idea of how to find the answer.

 

[Graywalker]

Yes. Sports fighters fight like they train. Because what they train works.

It is not the case where years of preparation go out the window just because someone gets their first full speed punch.

I wouldn't know, I have never seen a sport fighter in an actual fight, so personally. I would have to say your wrong.

 

[Graywalker]

The following clip proves that some forms are designed exactly for fighting.

Don't want to turn this thread into non-WC thread.

We have two man forms, that related to the forms, those, in karate are designed for a fight. Those are the fighting forms.

 

[Graywalker]

In karate you don't learn kicks and punches from kata alone

Bingo, what makes you think that isn't the case with the rest of the movements.

 

[Graywalker]

This is going back to my pre WC days, but what the heck, no one else here is a WC guy so I'll fit right in.
I studied another style of CMA for 14 years before I took up WC.
This was the 80s when tournaments were still a pretty big deal.

My teachers began training in the late 60s when tournaments were huge, and as such, our fighting very much had a tournament look to it.

When I became an instructor I began really emphasizing applications from forms and we did a lot of drills to instill this in the students.

Over time my students started to move differently and fight differently from our sister schools.
It no longer looked like tournament fighting...there were throws, grabs, locks, numerous types of sweeps, elbows and knees plus more varied kicks and hand techniques.

The forms were not the focus but the jumping off point.

Really, this is how I was taught from the get go, and then it changed to more of a kickboxing style of sparring. The joy of combat can kill techniques.

 

[Punchy]

What are your thoughts on this;

Well, you got to give them credit for trying....but that's the thing, I think they're trying too hard to look the part instead of letting the body move naturally.

 

[Punchy]

Really, this is how I was taught from the get go, and then it changed to more of a kickboxing style of sparring. The joy of combat can kill techniques.

Yeah, everone wants to use their high percentage moves instead of venturing out into unchartered waters.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you do in your school to train the student in, say the first 12 -18 months to defend themselves?

I had to deal with this issue many many years ago.

When I was young, I had a life threaten situation. I started to train how to use my dagger and how to throw my dagger (firearm was not available in Taiwan), I always carried 3 daggers with me. If I throw 2, I still have 1. In that period of time, I stopped all my solo form training. But I did train fast running.

Only after one has to face a life threaten situation, he may not notice what MA training is important, and what MA training is not that important.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The day when you start to collect gold metals in MA form competition tournament, the day that your fighting life is over. Your life will take a complete different path after that.

If in your form, you have a left arm move like this, what application will you explain to your students? Left hand reach to your left pocket, grab a knife, and throw at your opponent? You may also say you just try to loose your left shoulder joint.

Will you just change it into an upward block even if it may not look as pretty as the original move?

After this many years, I still cannot figure out any MA application for the last left arm movement in the following clip.

This is why I'm allergic to non-fighting move in a form (it looks very cool though).

so I was originally going to make some guess, but decided that I try the movement first. It's been a long time since I've felt that munch disconnection of body movement. I train a similar application that is use to knock away an attempted grab on the hips. The downward motion smacks the grabbing arm out of the way while you pull your front leg back which he doesn't do. The arm doesn't go over the head in the technique that I train. From a fighting perspective, if the arm sweeps downward like that then I'm thinking a redirect of a kick or a grab attempt. But after that, there is no need to put the arm above your head because in that scenario there's no way an attack can come from above. There is also no reason to stay in that stance that long either.

With all of that said it's a weak comparison. After doing that form, I'm going to say that this is completely entertainment performance. There is so much disconnect with the body mechanics that I can't see how anyone could actually use this. I even felt like I was off balance and I don't easily lose my balance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

After doing that form, I'm going to say that this is completely entertainment performance.

If in the WC form, to freeze the body and only move the palm up and down is for "conditioning the tendons", you can also say in the long fist form, this left arm movement is for "conditioning the shoulder joint".

If I can't even convince myself the proper MA application in a form, how can I teach others? This is why whenever I see a non-fighting move like this in a form, I just replace it by other fighting move.

May be I'm just not smart enough to figure out the secret application in that move.