Rambling Ruminations

[dlcox]

---That's an interesting statement. Wing Chun is supposed to be less complex than other Gung Fu methods. That's one of its claims to fame....being a stripped down and stream-lined art.

Unfortunately I don't see it. The movements of Yong Chun may be simpler than other methods but the level of refinement needed for effective practical use is way more complex, because it is based upon Fine Motor Skill (FMS). FMS requires constant conditioning under heavy duress before it can become second nature, Unlike Gross Motor Skill (GMS) arts like boxing that require much less coordination/conditioning and are more natural responsively to stimuli.

---Another interesting statement! But then you have to wonder if a classic Long Fist fighter turned Wing Chun fighter would be any more successful under pressure without resorting to some version of Long Fist-ish kickboxing.

Correct, they would resort to GMS movement, Yong Chun would give them refinement of GMS elevating it. In a sense it would make their GMS more effective and economical. I use the term "Chasing the Taiji", FMS is about refinement, the act of trying to make your technique the most powerful, economical and efficient with the least amount of effort. Large movements can always be made smaller, Small movements cannot be made bigger (at least not efficiently). A sculptor does not add stone to create the sculpture he chips away at a large block to reveal the image. "Chasing the Taiji" is about striving to become the ultimate. Unfortunately many approach the methodology backwards, starting from refined movement and work towards unrefined movement. Using unrealistic and complex theory with simple movement or using unrealistic and complex movement for a simple theory.

---One of the advantages of practicing a boxing-based method is that you are constantly training against someone throwing techniques from a boxing-based method. In today's modern setting, most attackers are likely going to be using some kind of pseudo-boxing method against you....throwing haymakers, jabs, hooks, etc. Wing Chun is too specific. Wing Chun people spend the vast majority of their time training against someone else doing Wing Chun.

I don't necessarily believe the problem lies in Yong Chun working against Yong Chun so much as it is the mindset and approach to training. To me Yong Chun is a very specific art meant to deal with very specific conditions and environments. That is why I believe it is an advanced art meant to be a supplement to an art that is more GMS based. Ideally you want to be able to defend yourself with Combined Motor Skill (CMS). This is a realistic approach, this is where Boxing and Wrestling lie and why they are so effective, they are firmly based in the CMS realm and start with GMS. Yong Chun starts with FMS (Xiao Lian Tou Quan) and works its way backwards to a more GMS realm with Biao Zhi Quan, small movement to large movement. This is counterproductive in terms of learning biomechanic application. The art of White Crane that I do has many theories and techniques similar to Yong Chun, but they are not introduced until the end. We start off with big movements and large circles then gradually refine them to little movements and small circles. To me this is where Yong Chun shines as a standard for refinement of structure and mechanics, but it's a theoretical method, it's "Chasing the Taiji". It's hypothetical, a "This is what it could potentially be" type of thing, not a "This is what it is" type of thing.

This brings me to question that, if Yong Chun is supposed to be a complete art, why does it feel as if something relevant is missing? Many of the older family styles and mainland styles have more than just the 3 forms. Many of them have broader beginner forms that employ more GMS than is commonly seen in standard Ye Wen or Yuan family Yong Chun. Many of these systems also start the practitioner off with a set of "Boxing Like" San Shi, like the 3 Arrow Punch, which covers the Straight Punch, Hook and Uppercut and Whipping Hand, which covers Inward Parry, Upward Parry and Downward Parry and 4 Gates, which covers footwork based on the fighting stance. Simple practical fundamentals that will later be refined by the techniques learned in the forms and through Chi Shou, Drilling and Sparring. It seems to me that many Yong Chun teachers now days gives the practitioner a sharp knife and has them dull it through practice. Instead of giving them a dull rusty blade and teaching them to polish and hone it into something useful. All the old legends say that Yong Chun was created as a means to counter the more traditional Shaolin styles.

It has never been said that it was a beginners method, that Yan Yong Chun never knew any martial arts prior to learning the art or that it was to be a stand alone method. I believe that it was created to be a method of refining and elevating the traditional arts that were based upon Shuai Jiao and Qin Na theory. For me Yong Chun is a theory not an art. An art requires adherence to the dogma the instructor preaches, theory is free to be applied through experimentation to see if it "Holds Water". Something to ponder.

 

[dlcox]

---Then they are an outdated textbook of techniques that seldom show up when sparring or fighting under real pressure.

Movements in forms are extremely ambiguous. Without a functional working knowledge of the styles theories, methodology and principles much can be misconstrued. As Joy stated on his thread, many in Yong Chun did not learn for a very long time. Many do not have an intimate knowledge of practical theoretical approach and this has led to hypothesizing about what a movement actually represents. I have seen outlandish interpretations of movements in many arts. This has led many to think that the art in question is not functional, when in fact it is most likely the teacher that doesn't have a clue. Arts like boxing and wrestling "Work" because their applications are primarily based upon GMS that is refined through work, in essence the application doesn't change it varies based upon knowledge gained through experience. There are three things that bother me with classical martial arts; one is the addition of superfluous movements that add no element of combat efficiency, simply for the sake of aesthetics. Two is tournament style fighting. Tournament style fighting employed by arts that are not primarily striking based (Many Northern CMA styles are Shuai Jiao Based and many Southern CMA styles are Qin Na based), you are not training to apply the techniques that you are learning because they are not allowed. Three is traditional arts that have an enormous amount of techniques, some have thousands of applications you have to learn in order to progress and there generally isn't any binding element that draws them together in a cohesive and understandable manner. We have long and "Fancy" forms in White Crane but the entire art is based upon 28 core movements, that cover stances, footwork, kicks, bridges, parries, punches and Yuan Gong our binding element that joins it all together. Our applications are based upon the Yuan Gong as applied to the basic movements, no need to learn thousands of techniques just 28, from which infinite combinations and applications can be derived. But in order to unlock it all you have to have a good understanding of structure, mechanics and principles of Ti, Da, Shuai and Na. This takes time and work, also known as "Gong Fu".

 

[KPM]

To me Yong Chun is a very specific art meant to deal with very specific conditions and environments. That is why I believe it is an advanced art meant to be a supplement to an art that is more GMS based. Ideally you want to be able to defend yourself with Combined Motor Skill (CMS). This is a realistic approach, this is where Boxing and Wrestling lie and why they are so effective, they are firmly based in the CMS realm and start with GMS. Yong Chun starts with FMS (Xiao Lian Tou Quan) and works its way backwards to a more GMS realm with Biao Zhi Quan, small movement to large movement. This is counterproductive in terms of learning biomechanic application. The art of White Crane that I do has many theories and techniques similar to Yong Chun, but they are not introduced until the end. We start off with big movements and large circles then gradually refine them to little movements and small circles. To me this is where Yong Chun shines as a standard for refinement of structure and mechanics, but it's a theoretical method, it's "Chasing the Taiji". It's hypothetical, a "This is what it could potentially be" type of thing, not a "This is what it is" type of thing.

Excellent analysis Dave! This certainly gives me something to think about! It occurs to me that Panantukan is set up exactly as you describe. It starts off with a boxing base....learning gross motor skills to combined motor skills. Then it adds in the "Filipino-specific" techniques like limb destructions, body manipulations, etc. These are harder to pull off under pressure because they are more fine motor skills. But the base-line you resort back to is the boxing. As you say, Wing Chun doesn't really teach a gross motor skill baseline to resort back to when the fine motor skills aren't working. It also occurs to me that Alan Orr is training his guys along this track, whether he thinks of it this way or not. He puts a big emphasis on what he calls "glove drills." He uses big boxing gloves. Of course, you aren't going to pull off many fine motor skill based techniques while wearing big boxing gloves! This is going to automatically put you in the realm of working more on gross motor skills. This is the "Chinese Boxing" arena he talks about. More of a gross motor skill based thing, with the later refinements coming from the more "classical" Wing Chun training. Hmmmmmm.......the wheels are turning! Thanks Dave!

 

[dlcox]

Excellent analysis Dave! This certainly gives me something to think about! It occurs to me that Panantukan is set up exactly as you describe. It starts off with a boxing base....learning gross motor skills to combined motor skills. Then it adds in the "Filipino-specific" techniques like limb destructions, body manipulations, etc. These are harder to pull off under pressure because they are more fine motor skills. But the base-line you resort back to is the boxing. As you say, Wing Chun doesn't really teach a gross motor skill baseline to resort back to when the fine motor skills aren't working. It also occurs to me that Alan Orr is training his guys along this track, whether he thinks of it this way or not. He puts a big emphasis on what he calls "glove drills." He uses big boxing gloves. Of course, you aren't going to pull off many fine motor skill based techniques while wearing big boxing gloves! This is going to automatically put you in the realm of working more on gross motor skills. This is the "Chinese Boxing" arena he talks about. More of a gross motor skill based thing, with the later refinements coming from the more "classical" Wing Chun training. Hmmmmmm.......the wheels are turning! Thanks Dave!

What???? You telling me after all this time that I finally got through your thick head?

All joking aside, I'm glad you now see it from my perspective. I struggled with this aspect for years until I had my eureka moment. Chinese Boxing, Dirty Boxing, Panantukan whatever you want to call it, it's all the same concept. Every once in a while we have to re-evaluate what's in the toolbox and decide what is necessary, what is superfluous and what is fundamental to the job at hand. When loosening a nut do we really need 6 tools that essentially do the same job as a wrench but are based upon different mechanics? Or can we just use an all purpose adjustable wrench that can be manipulated to suit our needs? All martial arts require a core base from which to expound upon. I find it interesting that many arts are composed of the same Jibengong regardless of style. The stances, blocks, punches, kicks etc. are all fundamentally the same across the board, their refinement according to the style is what is different. Unfortunately many get lost in the nuances and forget to go back to basics. Root movement is the foundation upon which stylistic theory is built. This is what allows you to focus on effective combat methods, ie; boxing, wrestling, kicking etc. according to the approach of a specific style. Jujutsu's foundation is base positions, Boxing's foundation is punching, Savate's foundation is footwork etc. The root of an art dictates it's function according to Ti, Da, Shuai & Na emphasis. One would not practice Savate to learn Grappling or Boxing to learn Qin Na. Every art has a core GMS that is specific to it's methodology and tactics. Sadly with many arts this has been forgotten. The reasons for this is varied, but what it ultimately comes down to is the understanding of an arts original purpose, not it's assumed or subjective purpose.

 

[Danny T]

Form is very important, drilling for the development of using the fundamental form is important, drilling vs a strongly resisting partner is important. Drilling freely vs a strongly resisting opponent who is also counter attacking is important. Drilling for development of different combinations is important, drilling vs a strongly resisting partner using specific combinations is important. All forms of training from Forms, Drills and many types of drills, and applying the moments developed from form and drilling at real time vs another important.
Even those fighting styles that don't have kata or form training still train form. Shadow boxing is all about form and movement. When a boxer works bob and weave drills they are working form and movement.
We all work forms, drills, and applications or should be.

 

[Danny T]

To me Yong Chun is a very specific art meant to deal with very specific conditions and environments. That is why I believe it is an advanced art meant to be a supplement to an art that is more GMS based. Ideally you want to be able to defend yourself with Combined Motor Skill (CMS). This is a realistic approach, this is where Boxing and Wrestling lie and why they are so effective, they are firmly based in the CMS realm and start with GMS. Yong Chun starts with FMS (Xiao Lian Tou Quan) and works its way backwards to a more GMS realm with Biao Zhi Quan, small movement to large movement. This is counterproductive in terms of learning biomechanic application. The art of White Crane that I do has many theories and techniques similar to Yong Chun, but they are not introduced until the end. We start off with big movements and large circles then gradually refine them to little movements and small circles. To me this is where Yong Chun shines as a standard for refinement of structure and mechanics, but it's a theoretical method, it's "Chasing the Taiji". It's hypothetical, a "This is what it could potentially be" type of thing, not a "This is what it is" type of thing.

Excellent analysis Dave! This certainly gives me something to think about! It occurs to me that Panantukan is set up exactly as you describe. It starts off with a boxing base....learning gross motor skills to combined motor skills. Then it adds in the "Filipino-specific" techniques like limb destructions, body manipulations, etc. These are harder to pull off under pressure because they are more fine motor skills. But the base-line you resort back to is the boxing. As you say, Wing Chun doesn't really teach a gross motor skill baseline to resort back to when the fine motor skills aren't working. It also occurs to me that Alan Orr is training his guys along this track, whether he thinks of it this way or not. He puts a big emphasis on what he calls "glove drills." He uses big boxing gloves. Of course, you aren't going to pull off many fine motor skill based techniques while wearing big boxing gloves! This is going to automatically put you in the realm of working more on gross motor skills. This is the "Chinese Boxing" arena he talks about. More of a gross motor skill based thing, with the later refinements coming from the more "classical" Wing Chun training. Hmmmmmm.......the wheels are turning! Thanks Dave!

A big problem with many in the wc community is the lack of hitting and the incessant desire to trap. Hitting gross motion, trapping fine motor. Hit, hit, hit!! Traps happen because of hitting.It is not hitting is the follow up to trapping.

 

[geezer]

The root of an art dictates it's function according to Ti, Da, Shuai & Na emphasis...

Every art has a core GMS that is specific to it's methodology and tactics. Sadly with many arts this has been forgotten...

Dave, you and Kieth have made some good points. I personally believe that within basic WC there is a very practical "gross motor skill" core. You know, simple direct strikes, kicks and footwork that can be effecive in fighting. But it's largely ignored in favor of the more subtle finesse movents trained in chi-sau. Unfortunately for the chi-sau wizard, it's that atrotphied basic stuff that will save his backside under pressure when his body is experiencing a full-on adrenaline dump.

My guess is that commercialization and the need to keep students interested and (paying) year after year has contributed to the problem. And then there is the "chasing the taichi" or "supreme ultimate" factor that Dave brought up. So many of us want to believe that if not magic and qi power, then at least some supreme technical skill will save us from the messy, sweaty, bruising reality of real fist fighting.

Finally, even if you do have a firm grasp of the WC fighting basics, and default to those simple, direct and funtional moves under pressure, I fear that even some of these movements are not so functional against modern styles of fighting. There always needs to be adaptation. This is what Alan Orr seems to be working at with mixed success. To my eye, his own movements still visibly preserve the core of WC. I do not see that so much in the fighters he coaches. It seems his first priority is to train them for success in the ring, and they don't have his years of experience in WC, it doesn't show under the pressure of a bout.

OK, success in the ring must come first. I get that. And, I respect him for his efforts. Perhaps other WC people regardless of lineage, will follow and build on his work. I'd like to see that, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[KPM]

What???? You telling me after all this time that I finally got through your thick head?

----My hard head does occassionally develop a soft spot and common sense gets through! ;-)

All martial arts require a core base from which to expound upon. I find it interesting that many arts are composed of the same Jibengong regardless of style. The stances, blocks, punches, kicks etc. are all fundamentally the same across the board, their refinement according to the style is what is different. Unfortunately many get lost in the nuances and forget to go back to basics. Root movement is the foundation upon which stylistic theory is built.

---Yes. I think you have hit on the key point I was missing. Its simply a matter of reviving that essential Wing Chun core and making it functional. We need to shape our gross motor skill to that, not to the western boxing response. We that grew up in western society have that basic boxing movement ingrained in us from watching TV, movies, kids in the neighborhood, etc. But that wouldn't be true in other parts of the world, and certainly not in China during Wing Chun's formative years. The "subconscious" default would have been different.

--I'm thinking that its very important to "box" with Wing Chun. Screw any fancy technique. Use the basic structure and power base and just "box"! That's how one is going to make that gross motor skill "default" more Wing Chun-like. Like Danny said, don't worry about trapping and Chi sau tricks....just hit the guy! When you can do that reliably, then start working on those fine motor skills that Wing Chun teaches.

---Ok. I have renewed inspiration to work on my Wing Chun! That, and the fact that my training partners now that I am home are not ready to give up on Wing Chun! ;-)

 

[KPM]

I personally believe that within basic WC there is a very practical "gross motor skill" core. You know, simple direct strikes, kicks and footwork that can be effecive in fighting. But it's largely ignored in favor of the more subtle finesse movents trained in chi-sau.

---Yes, I think you right Steve. And I think this is what Alan Orr works on and calls "Chinese Boxing."

My guess is that commercialization and the need to keep students interested and (paying) year after year has contributed to the problem. And then there is the "chasing the taichi" or "supreme ultimate" factor that Dave brought up. So many of us want to believe that if not magic and qi power, then at least some supreme technical skill will save us from the messy, sweaty, bruising reality of real fist fighting.

---That and the fact that many people that get into martial arts do it as a hobby and a form of exercise. They don't really want to work hard, and they don't really want to get hit. So lots of Chi Sau and forms training suits them perfectly! ;-)


Finally, even if you do have a firm grasp of the WC fighting basics, and default to those simple, direct and funtional moves under pressure, I fear that even some of these movements are not so functional against modern styles of fighting. There always needs to be adaptation. This is what Alan Orr seems to be working at with mixed success.

---I agree. And some of that adaptation is likely the reason why things sometimes start looking somewhat like western boxing. We know from FMA that if you really want to be able to defend against a knife you have to know how to use a knife. I think we are seeing something similar in that if you really want to be able to defend against a good boxer you have to be able to move somewhat like a boxer moves.

To my eye, his own movements still visibly preserve the core of WC. I do not see that so much in the fighters he coaches. It seems his first priority is to train them for success in the ring, and they don't have his years of experience in WC, it doesn't show under the pressure of a bout.

---Again, I would have to agree. Though some of his long-term students that have been with him for a decade preserve their Wing Chun movement much better.

 

[geezer]

Here's a fairly recent video of Alan Orr doing some chi sau/gor sau with a student. It's rough, and sometimes heavy looking compared to the WT approach I train. It also seamlessly goes from a disengaged striking range, through sticking into a clinch, throws and groundwork. "WT" (or in my case VT emerging from a "WT" background) does that too, but as a kid who grew up wrestling, the tie-ups, throws, and groundwork here look more ...real and functional to me than what I usually see in the way my group trains. On the other hand, this is how our DTE Eskrima group trains.

I really don't see why this kind of realistic, non compliant approach to chi sau couldn't be integrated into WC training regardless of lineage. Thoughts?

 

[Danny T]

I really don't see why this kind of realistic, non compliant approach to chi sau couldn't be integrated into WC training regardless of lineage. Thoughts?

Where as in my group we don't call this chi sao; we do train in this manner.

 

[dlcox]

I really don't see why this kind of realistic, non compliant approach to chi sau couldn't be integrated into WC training regardless of lineage. Thoughts?

This is very similar to my approach to Chi Shou. More of a "Pummeling" method with more sensitivity than hand fighting. I agree it translates better to realistic approach and leads into more options seamlessly. Aside from the rolling hand platform you'll notice the GMS approach that can then flow into CMS and FMS. I appreciate this approach, but then again many think my Yong Chun is weird and animalistic, so what do I know.

 

[KPM]

I really don't see why this kind of realistic, non compliant approach to chi sau couldn't be integrated into WC training regardless of lineage. Thoughts?

---I agree. I think this is how Chi Sau should be done. There are no complicated multi-move "Chi Sau tricks" that would only work on another Wing Chun guy. The rolling only lasts for a short time before transitioning to something else. Chi Sau "range" is only a snapshot in time in a real exchange. You see that in this clip. The Chi Sau here is as much about grappling as it is about striking because that is the range they are in. As far as this approach integrated into WC regardless of lineage....yeah, it should be! The problem is that many lineages don't have the body structure to pull this off. I just can't picture those guys that lean back in their stance with their weight on their heels doing this. I think many "experts" would get a big surprise if they tried to roll with Alan or one of his better guys. They would probably complain about being "muscled" or "too much use of strength" or "not doing real Wing Chun" or some other non-sense. But they would probably do it from a smashed position on the ground! ;-)

 

[KPM]

Aside from the rolling hand platform you'll notice the GMS approach that can then flow into CMS and FMS.

----I hadn't thought of this way until you started pointing these things out, but yeah......it has something of a baseline GMS approach. That is likely why some might say it looks "crude" and why you don't see those complicated "Chi Sau tricks."


I appreciate this approach, but then again many think my Yong Chun is weird and animalistic, so what do I know.

----"Weird and animalistic"? Man, I really need to see your Wing Chun at some point. ;-)

 

[kung fu fighter]

Here's a fairly recent video of Alan Orr doing some chi sau/gor sau with a student. It's rough, and sometimes heavy looking compared to the WT approach I train. It also seamlessly goes from a disengaged striking range, through sticking into a clinch, throws and groundwork. "WT" (or in my case VT emerging from a "WT" background) does that too, but as a kid who grew up wrestling, the tie-ups, throws, and groundwork here look more ...real and functional to me than what I usually see in the way my group trains. On the other hand, this is how our DTE Eskrima group trains.

I really don't see why this kind of realistic, non compliant approach to chi sau couldn't be integrated into WC training regardless of lineage. Thoughts?

First off I think this is one of the most productive threads I've seen on here in a while. and While I agree that GMS is easier to pull off than FMS based on my own real life experiences, where I differ however is the need to incorporate wrestling and boxing techniques which breaks the wing chun center line principles, in my opinion this literally leaves holes in one's game. From my experience my advice is to look into other linages of wing chun, I think you'd be supprised at what you would discover. Kulo Pin sun wing chun for example has tons of GMS, no need to incorporate GMS from other arts like boxing and wrestling. Wck was never intended to address all skill sets of fighting. It was an advance system which could be learnt in a relatively short period of time to overcome other martial artist with many more years of experience and skill sets, which focused on some advance concepts and principles. If mastered, it's centerline principle for example does gives it's practioners a distinctive advantage. I like the saying MMA is the ultimate martial art, wing chun is it's counter, because wing chun is all about preventative medicine or being proactive verses the reactive approach.

Alan is using the WCK chi sao platform to develop his and his students MMA skills almost like a controlled close range sparring session, I find absolutely nothing wrong with that! However what he is doing can just as easily be done using the wrestling "Pummeling" drill. That being said, I feel the traditional method of doing chi sao is a great tool to explore how the principles and concepts of the wing chun system comes alive under pressure in a controlled environment. in my opinion chi sao was intended to focus on the development of certain specific wck attributes such as control, timing, the center line concept, feeling open and closed lines, intent, and momentum handling.

 

[Brian King]

I do not practice the arts being discussed but have to say that I am enjoying this thread (other than lack of quotes makes following a little more difficult here and there). Hat tip and thank you to all. Very nice discussion, technical, honest, and with the motive of sharing. Thanks again.
Regards
Brian King

 

[Kwan Sau]

First off I think this is one of the most productive threads I've seen on here in a while

Agreed. Nice discussion fellas!

From my experience my advice is to look into other linages of wing chun, I think you'd be supprised at what you would discover. Kulo Pin sun wing chun for example has tons of GMS, no need to incorporate GMS from other arts like boxing and wrestling.

I think most people perceive Duncan Leung's WC is GMS...but his WC has an vast array of san sao drills/hands that quickly ingrain reflexive GMS skill. In fact, I was reading a blog recently that said something like Duncan's WC is the last vestige of what could be called "primitive wing chun"...

It was an advance system which could be learnt in a relatively short period of time to overcome other martial artist with many more years of experience and skill sets, which focused on some advance concepts and principles.

Nice.

 

[kung fu fighter]

I think most people perceive Duncan Leung's WC is GMS...but his WC has an vast array of san sao drills/hands that quickly ingrain reflexive GMS skill. In fact, I was reading a blog recently that said something like Duncan's WC is the last vestige of what could be called "primitive wing chun"... Nice.

Agreed!

 

[Tez3]

Thank you for the Alan Orr clip, not knowing who he is I had a look on his website and found on the Fight Teams page someone I've known for a long time but had lost contact with so am really pleased to have found him again. It's a interesting thread too, can't add anything but learning which is always good.

 

[zuti car]

I am doing chi sao in the same manner as the guy on the clip , full strength , punches in the body are done with half of the strength and no punching in the head , When I use protective gear , then full strength punches in the body and 1\3 strength in the head .