Teaching in English or ????????????

[Bammx2]

I teach in american(and YES,it is different from english!)

As far as I'm concerned.....
a butt-whoopin is a butt-whoopin no matter what language it's in!

 

[hammer]

Sorry for the delay. The board decided to not work for like the last hour or so at work, then I had to go to class. I typed a nice response up & lost it the first time the board quit responding, so the second time, I emailed it to myself. I numbered your question make it easy to read. Here ya go...

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1) When my sifu or sigung visits or they visit them, that's what they will hear. If I were teaching a MA that was not traditional, I wouldn't use another language or if my teacher said not, I wouldn't. Otherwise they learn like I learn.

2) For the names & technical items related directly to a technique, yes. I don't speak Cantonese except for what is used in CLF.

3) See #2.

4) It gives them more to think about than step, block, punch, kick, etc... When I call out "Hak Wu Jin Chi", they know to perform a certain motion a certain way. When I say let's do 30 Sow Choy's, they know what punch to do & when they hear Sam Sup, they stop. It gives them a small peek into a different culture that may inspire them to bigger things. Then again it may just be a mental exercise, who's to say?

5) A little, but no more so than how the techniques were first recorded to hide them from the Qing government or to help a person remember certain motions because of motions physical appearance or lack of education. Poems/lyrics are easily remembered in a sing song fashion.

No probs,!

Could you please explain the benifit of,"Churng Sum Toi Churng Sum Jeurng Chop Choy"as opposed to "Outside crescent kick, horizontal palm strike, punch"

1) When my sifu or sigung visits or they visit them, that's what they will hear. If I were teaching a MA that was not traditional, I wouldn't use another language or if my teacher said not, I wouldn't. Otherwise they learn like I learn.

ok ,So how dose this help me develop and understand learning the above sequence of movements?

2) For the names & technical items related directly to a technique, yes. I don't speak Cantonese except for what is used in CLF.

Oh and why not?, is that not apart of your system,

So you label techniques or movements in Cantonese, to give the impression that the material being taught is Authentic?

But think about it this... if you walked into a place claiming to teachTCMA & all they do is speak English, wouldn't you wonder just a little about what they
taught?

Yet use English to make corrections , WHY?

It gives them more to think about than step, block, punch, kick, etc... When I call out "Hak Wu Jin Chi", they know to perform a certain motion a certain way. When I say let's do 30 Sow Choy's, they know what punch to do & when they hear Sam Sup, they stop. It gives them a small peek into a different culture that may inspire them to bigger things. Then again it may just be a mental exercise, who's to say?

Oh, and why would a student need to think any more about a block, puch. kick,in Cantonese, when they should be concerned with understanding the movement and assosiated dynamics, so basically you are just labeling in Cantonese.

When concerned with martial arts and Instruction, I fall to see how learning the labeling of movements in a foreign language, helps the student perform their material, any better then those of a native language to the land. Remembering that most students that study an art that is foreign Basically only learn basic commands many fail to learn Language in full regardless of origin.


Cheers HAMMER

 

[clfsean]

No probs,!

Could you please explain the benifit of,"Churng Sum Toi Churng Sum Jeurng Chop Choy"as opposed to "Outside crescent kick, horizontal palm strike, punch"

I think I did previously.

ok ,So how dose this help me develop and understand learning the above sequence of movements?

It doesn't. Practice does that, but when you hear the tachnique you're able to do it.

Oh and why not?, is that not apart of your system,

So you label techniques or movements in Cantonese, to give the impression that the material being taught is Authentic?

No the material is authentic. The skill is authentic. I was taught the Cantonese name for the techniqes & that's what I hear in class, therefore, that's what I pass on. If I walk into an Aikido dojo, I expect to hear techniques, exercises, drills, etc... being handled in Japanese. Same with a CMA school, I expect to hear Cantonese or Mandarin. In an Arnis or Escrima school, I'd expect to hear a fair amount of Tagalog referring to the same things.

Yet use English to make corrections , WHY?

Because English is lingua franca for communication, but Cantonese is language for techniques/drills/sets/exercises/etc... in the class. Period.

Oh, and why would a student need to think any more about a block, puch. kick,in Cantonese, when they should be concerned with understanding the movement and assosiated dynamics, so basically you are just labeling in Cantonese.

Because there's more to the motions than just the motions. Why does kenpo use all these poetic names & stuff to describe a set or series or motions or movements? Wouldn't it be just as easy for y'all to say "Step to the side & hit him 3 times"???

When concerned with martial arts and Instruction, I fall to see how learning the labeling of movements in a foreign language, helps the student perform their material, any better then those of a native language to the land. Remembering that most students that study an art that is foreign Basically only learn basic commands many fail to learn Language in full regardless of origin.

Well I'm sorry if you don't see it. I honestly wasn't asking for validation. The topic was posted, I answered & gave my reasons. It comes in useful for Lion Dancing, for the MA itself, to help understand when there are visitors that don't speak English (any or otherwise) when they describe certain techniques as they apply to what we do. If you don't, that's cool.

You practice an American MA, you should speak English in it. There's also a little specialized sub-language related to kenpo you speak as well. I don't. I practice a Traditional Chinese Martial Art from Southern China & as such, pieces & parts are handled in Cantonese.

 

[hammer]

clfsean,

All good, just wanted to explore your thoughts and comments a little further.
Thanks for the positive exchange.

Cheers
Hammer

 

[clfsean]

God my spelling is off today... must infuse more caffine into the blood stream.

Hammer... right on.

 

[TimoS]

Ah, this debate once again... Ok, I'll give my views on this. In my opinion you should use the terminology of the arts original language. It is easier for you living in english speaking country, but consider this. I'm living in Finland so my primary language is of course finnish, a language only very few people outside Finland speak. I'm working in a big international company and we have our own karate club, so we have students who don't speak finnish. Should we use only finnish terms then ? How about somebody from another country who has prior experience in another karate style that was taught in, let's say spanish. He would then come train with us and whoever was teaching at the time would "sivupotku" ("sidekick"). What do you think his reaction would be ? Now compare it with the situation where at both places the techniques have been taught in japanese and the instructor were to say "sokutogeri". Which way do you think it would be faster for the newcomer to learn ?`

Or the case when we have visiting instructors from Japan. In which language should they teach ? Should we demand that they must speak finnish ?

Still another point: kata names. Should we come up with our translations for the names ?

Or how about if somebody from Finland moves to another country and starts teaching there. Should he/she then translate the terms to that specific country ? How about if the country has more than one official language ? How about if he/she doesn't yet speak the language ?

 

[The Kai]

If you demonstrate a side kick he should get it, regardless of the language.


If you move to a different country, would you not have to learn thier language any way?? Or do you think the entire society will say "He's a karate guy, he does'nt need to speak our language!"

If I were to run a football camp in spain, I'd better come up with some spanish-quick. Do they teach soccer camps in the USA in german?

The Kata names are more fluent in the origianl usage. saying Peacful Mind number 4 does'nt have that ring to it

 

[TimoS]

The Kata names are more fluent in the origianl usage. saying Peacful Mind number 4 does'nt have that ring to it

If you "must" teach in english, why stop at kata names ? Go all the way

 

[The Kai]

Sure! And while I'm at it I will use mechanized horseless carriage, soft paper facial wipes, wireless broadcast television
In any language ther are descriptive words/phrases that are commonly used for convience

 

[clfsean]

Convenience doesn't translate to tradition...

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one...

 

[The Kai]

So.. tradition is the chinese speaking thier native tongue when teaching and not using the root language of india (I'm sorry I'm completely ignorant of the Indian langauge). And then the american (or whomever) using chinese language? Why did the tradition stagnate once it got to out shores??

 

[clfsean]

So.. tradition is the chinese speaking thier native tongue when teaching and not using the root language of india (I'm sorry I'm completely ignorant of the Indian langauge). And then the american (or whomever) using chinese language? Why did the tradition stagnate once it got to out shores??

Where did India come from in this? If you're referring to Shaolin in Henan... Damo is just about relegated to legend only with MA. There were martial arts in the area before the temple was even built for Ba-tuo.

The Americans using the Chinese language? Who are you referring to there? Until recently (20-30 years +/-) there haven't been a "bunch" of Americans teaching TCMA. For the ones that have been around for a long time, I can't presume to know why they did or didn't continue to use Chinese in their schools. I can guess why, but being unfounded, I'll keep possibly inflammatory assumptions to myself.

My sifu's teachers both spoke in Cantonese when teaching... one in Tennesse & one in San Fran for the same things I've already discussed. Both teach TCMA & both used Cantonese for class. My sifu does, I do. If stops, I'll stop. I teach under his banner.

 

[The Kai]

Even as the idea that Buddha (or any one person brought the art over) there was a connection between Varja mukti and the Kung fu arts.

you can also, with a few changes insert karate, te or TKD why did the tradition of speaking your own language dissapt when it gets to the ol' USA?

As a odd question are the traditions of the arts found only in the trappings, or in the function??

 

[clfsean]

Good question but for us, function.

Why the "Osu" in your sig? Trapping or Function? Why Japanese? Why not the English equivilent?

;-)

 

[The Kai]

The "Osu" is shorthand for train harder... Kinda like yelling Gerinimo when jumpinh out of a airplane


So you expalin, correct and offer analysis in english, but don't fell like your are teaching unless you are barely comprehensible in two languages??

 

[VSanhodo]

The "Osu" is shorthand for train harder... Kinda like yelling Gerinimo when jumpinh out of a airplane


When I was in the military I used to have t jump out of perfectly good airplanes all the time. Igot to where I enjoyed it but when I first started I never not even once said Gerinimo, It was usually Ooooooo **** or I dont care if you do out rank me you cant make me go, Which was usually followed by a boot. God it only took several hundred jumps before I stopped wetting my pants. I did get to enjoy it but I swear on a pucker facotr of 1 - 10 skydiving is about a 19.

Take care

San

 

[clfsean]

*sigh*

I'm very easy to comprehend. My grammar & speaking skills are quite good, along with my teaching skills. I use Chinese in my class, as my sifu does and as his does. I've outlined my reasons for doing that. Take it or leave it either. It is what is & is not going to change.

I teach & study a Chinese martial art. There are Chinese trappings through out the art here in America. We dress for class as they still do in Southern China (school t-shirt, pants). We lion dance as they still do in Southern China. We have direct links to Southern China so we tend to maintain that appearance. It's in line with what we do.

You don't. So for that I don't expect you to understand.

As earlier, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

The "Osu" is shorthand for train harder... Kinda like yelling Gerinimo when jumpinh out of a airplane


So you expalin, correct and offer analysis in english, but don't fell like your are teaching unless you are barely comprehensible in two languages??/QUOTE]

i dont think that everyone that teaches martial arts is entirely ignorant of the native language that their particular art is taught in. timos makes the best point for this argument. on the other hand......if you're investing the time into learning how to kick someone's a$$......couldnt you invest a little time and effort into learning a bit about the language and culture of the art you study? i dont think that's a lot to ask. most north american people have this "me first , who gives a crap about anyone else" attitude and it makes me laugh.
so when a famous teacher comes from japan or china to teach, do you say, "speak in english, pal....we dont do none o' that foreign talking"

 

[The Kai]

The "Osu" is shorthand for train harder... Kinda like yelling Gerinimo when jumpinh out of a airplane


So you expalin, correct and offer analysis in english, but don't fell like your are teaching unless you are barely comprehensible in two languages??/QUOTE]

i dont think that everyone that teaches martial arts is entirely ignorant of the native language that their particular art is taught in. timos makes the best point for this argument. on the other hand......if you're investing the time into learning how to kick someone's a$$......couldnt you invest a little time and effort into learning a bit about the language and culture of the art you study? i dont think that's a lot to ask. most north american people have this "me first , who gives a crap about anyone else" attitude and it makes me laugh.
so when a famous teacher comes from japan or china to teach, do you say, "speak in english, pal....we dont do none o' that foreign talking"

So when the japanese imported the sport of baseball, they kept it as american as possible?? They refused to play the game any different, all learned english.

Why is it so out of hand to expect a teacher that comes to america to teach learn to speak american?? If I take a college class about oriental philosophy, do I firat need to learn the oriental language. Why would you not expect some one who works, lives and socializes in the us-not to speal the lingo?? After all if I went to India or France I would brush up on the appriatelanguage-it's called cultural assimulation!

is there any function to not speaking english, is still a question

 

[Makalakumu]

Most westeren martial artists that try to teach in Japanese just end up butchering it badly. Missusing words, misspronouncing words, misinterpreting ideas.

Speak the language that everyone in the room is most fluent in, makes things so much clearer.

This is very true, but I still use korean terminology in class...

I learned how true it was when I actually trained with native Koreans....(btw they couldn't speak any english). They laughed so hard and I had to laugh because I must have looked so stupid.

Then we put on the gear and sparred...afterward we sat down and worked on correcting my pronounciation. I was encouraged to keep trying...

So I do.