Teaching Challengers

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

With all this talk about grappling being safer than striking in a challenge match, I pose this question...

What if the challenger doesn’t respect your tapout?

Then ya F***ed

 

[JR 137]

We all know that one more friend is not too many but one more enemy can be too many. If you don't want to end with a gun fight, you will need to follow some rule.

I agree with that, but how does it really answer the question you quoted?

People are basically saying striking is riskier because the challenger may hit too hard. What about a challenger who decides to follow through with the armbar after you tapped? Busted ribs heal up in 6-8 weeks. A busted elbow usually requires surgery.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I agree with that, but how does it really answer the question you quoted?

People are basically saying striking is riskier because the challenger may hit too hard. What about a challenger who decides to follow through with the armbar after you tapped? Busted ribs heal up in 6-8 weeks. A busted elbow usually requires surgery.

The idea goes back to another thread recently, where people were arguing if breaking someones arm in a ring fight is unsportsmanlike. People think of breaking an arm as a bigger deal, so they're more likely to respect a tap, and stop the fight there. People don't tend to do that if someone is rocked, or those involved may have a different view of the appropriate strength to use. In grappling, none of that matters until the tap, where it's (assumed to be) universally agreed that a tap will end a match.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A busted elbow usually requires surgery.

Soldiers die on the battle field. Noting is risk free.

The wrestling art world is still safer than the striking art world.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Heck, I don't think I would have ever welcomed an outright challenge fight, and now that I'm moving into my mid 60s, it would be out of the question.

About ten years back I was visiting my son's wrestling class and on a crazy whim challenged a high school wrestler who was quite a bit bigger than I ... and I hadn't wrestled since sophomore year in high school myself nearly forty years earlier. And I did pretty well. But these were nice kids, and you can grapple all out without hurting anyone. ...OK, I was sore as hell for about a week after, but not hurt.

Striking arts are a whole different deal, especially with a stranger with unknown motivations. You might think you are going in for controlled sparring, and the other guy wants to take your head off. Like this idiot:

I would be fine with that. I give what I receive and I let people know that before any facing off is done.

When I spar I always have my defense on because I don't know how my opponent is going to respond. Will get mad and lose control? Will he sucker punch me? I don't know. So I know going in that even if it's light sparring my defense needs to be on 100%. If I'm going to ease up on anything it would be the intensity of my offense, but never my defense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Last year (right after my 70 years old birthday) I saw a group of young wrestlers wrestled on the grass. I asked them if I could also have fun with them. I had so much fun to wrestle a young guy who was 45 years younger than me and 50 lb more weight than me.

IMO, I won't consider that as a challenge fight. The wrestling art world is much different from the striking art world.

How did you do? Were you still able to work some of your techniques?

 

[JowGaWolf]

With all this talk about grappling being safer than striking in a challenge match, I pose this question...

What if the challenger doesn’t respect your tapout?

I'm no grappler so this would be a really big concern with me. Hopefully there will be other people there to help you out in the event that the challenger didn't respect your tapout.

 

[dvcochran]

Again, attitude and approach would affect my response. My inclination is that I'd agree, for the same reason. Have to temper that with some caution.

Ah, the good old days when I had no hesitation if challenged. I used to know that there were three very clear and different ways to address a challenge; I could play with them and probably make a point to embarrass them, it could be a spirited fight using all my abilities, or I could hurt them as quickly as possible and get away. I know I don't have those options any more so I guess I would have to talk a challenger down at least to the level that I was sure it was only going to be a sparring match. If I could not do that and they persisted it could get very interesting. Shouldn't last very long though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How did you do? Were you still able to work some of your techniques?

Nothing fancy. My opponent attacked my leg. I sprawled and got him into a reverse head lock (guillotine). He tapped out. Head lock is one skill that I intend to maintain for the rest of my life.

 

[JR 137]

I'm no grappler so this would be a really big concern with me. Hopefully there will be other people there to help you out in the event that the challenger didn't respect your tapout.

Yes. But after the fact. Even if he gets his a$$ beaten by everyone in the room, and all at the same time, your elbow is still F’ed.

I think people tend to go a little too far in striking because it’s not always immediately overly obvious when someone’s been hit too hard. Even the top pro boxing referees like Mills Lane can let it go a second or two too far. And when someone gets rocked, it’s typically in a combo. It’s a lot harder for a fighter to see it and stop in the middle of a combo than in a grappling hold IMO. A striker is thinking 4-5 punches, a grappler is thinking armbar.

 

[Martial D]

Last year (right after my 70 years old birthday) I saw a group of young wrestlers wrestled on the grass. I asked them if I could also have fun with them. I had so much fun to wrestle a young guy who was 45 years younger than me and 50 lb more weight than me.

IMO, I won't consider that as a challenge fight. The wrestling art world is much different from the striking art world.

Wait. You're 70 years old? And still wrestle?

That's pretty awesome.

 

[wab25]

With all this talk about grappling being safer than striking in a challenge match, I pose this question...

What if the challenger doesn’t respect your tapout?

When I roll with new people... I tend to tap out quicker, until I get comfortable with how they respect my tap. At first, I will tap when they get their technique in place, even if I could counter and get out of it. I want to see if they respect my tap. This way, if they don't respect my tap, I still have counters and time to use them. The more I trust the guy to respect the tap, the further I go, before tapping. Have I tapped to guys that I probably shouldn't have? Yes. But, I have also found guys that didn't respect my tap... and in the few times that happened, I was able to counter and reverse the situation. (those were fun conversations to have... the other guy did a lot of smiling ) While I may end up tapping too soon a few times... I have been able to protect myself from injury, when working with guys that don't respect it. I am still able to work all the way through, to the limit, but I only do that with people I trust to respect my tap.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With grappling, I'm a bit more inclined to 'try' to win, since that makes me motivated to do things that work. But that may just be that i'm a better striker than a grappler.

I'm more inclined to "win" with grappling, too. For me, I think it's because I can do so without (purposely) hurting anyone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would be fine with that. I give what I receive and I let people know that before any facing off is done.

When I spar I always have my defense on because I don't know how my opponent is going to respond. Will get mad and lose control? Will he sucker punch me? I don't know. So I know going in that even if it's light sparring my defense needs to be on 100%. If I'm going to ease up on anything it would be the intensity of my offense, but never my defense.

I don't know how well I'd do shifting gears from light technical sparring to full-speed fighting. There are openings you don't take full advantage of in light sparring (because you'd have to go full speed to get them, and they hurt more like shots to the nose) which are part of keeping haymakers to a minimum in full fighting. That's how Zelenoff got off those first shots on guys: they were playing for the slow, light defense of light sparring, which doesn't stop people from throwing haymakers. That offense is part of my defense, so if my offense is at 50%, then my defense is reduced, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I roll with new people... I tend to tap out quicker, until I get comfortable with how they respect my tap. At first, I will tap when they get their technique in place, even if I could counter and get out of it. I want to see if they respect my tap. This way, if they don't respect my tap, I still have counters and time to use them. The more I trust the guy to respect the tap, the further I go, before tapping. Have I tapped to guys that I probably shouldn't have? Yes. But, I have also found guys that didn't respect my tap... and in the few times that happened, I was able to counter and reverse the situation. (those were fun conversations to have... the other guy did a lot of smiling ) While I may end up tapping too soon a few times... I have been able to protect myself from injury, when working with guys that don't respect it. I am still able to work all the way through, to the limit, but I only do that with people I trust to respect my tap.

As I think about it, that's how I am with new students, and with students I don't know (when I visit my instructor's school). Once I know their control and respect of the tap, I'm less cautious.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know how well I'd do shifting gears from light technical sparring to full-speed fighting.

You would do better than you would think. It's not as difficult as it sounds. It's usually more difficult to go in the opposite direction, learning not to hit hard. Full on fight is the easy part. Getting the concept of winning and "getting the best of someone" out of your head is very difficult. If you can already do that then turning up the heat at a moment's notice would be easy.

There are openings you don't take full advantage of in light sparring (because you'd have to go full speed to get them, and they hurt more like shots to the nose) which are part of keeping haymakers to a minimum in full fighting.

Yep, unfortunately that's the case. That was one of my big fears as an instructor. I was always worried that a student new to sparring would go for those type of strikes and not realize that adding speed to pull it off may cause more damage than intended.

That's how Zelenoff got off those first shots on guys: they were playing for the slow, light defense of light sparring, which doesn't stop people from throwing haymakers. That offense is part of my defense, so if my offense is at 50%, then my defense is reduced, too.

You lost me here. I'm not sure if my mind is tired or that it's just set on seeing Zelenoff as an A-hole. lol.

What part of the offense is part of your defense?

 

[dvcochran]

You would do better than you would think. It's not as difficult as it sounds. It's usually more difficult to go in the opposite direction, learning not to hit hard. Full on fight is the easy part. Getting the concept of winning and "getting the best of someone" out of your head is very difficult. If you can already do that then turning up the heat at a moment's notice would be easy.

Yep, unfortunately that's the case. That was one of my big fears as an instructor. I was always worried that a student new to sparring would go for those type of strikes and not realize that adding speed to pull it off may cause more damage than intended.

You lost me here. I'm not sure if my mind is tired or that it's just set on seeing Zelenoff as an A-hole. lol.

What part of the offense is part of your defense?

If you are mostly on offense then you need less defense as the opponent is always on defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You would do better than you would think. It's not as difficult as it sounds. It's usually more difficult to go in the opposite direction, learning not to hit hard. Full on fight is the easy part. Getting the concept of winning and "getting the best of someone" out of your head is very difficult. If you can already do that then turning up the heat at a moment's notice would be easy.

Yep, unfortunately that's the case. That was one of my big fears as an instructor. I was always worried that a student new to sparring would go for those type of strikes and not realize that adding speed to pull it off may cause more damage than intended.

You lost me here. I'm not sure if my mind is tired or that it's just set on seeing Zelenoff as an A-hole. lol.

What part of the offense is part of your defense?

Quick, sharp shots to the face become part of controlling the space and preventing big punches (because those take too long). In light sparring, those sharp shots to the face are slowed and pulled, making it easy to step in and throw a surprise power shot. That’s why Zelenoff always started out acting like it was going to be light sparring, and just threw a power shot right off the bat.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Quick, sharp shots to the face become part of controlling the space and preventing big punches (because those take too long). In light sparring, those sharp shots to the face are slowed and pulled, making it easy to step in and throw a surprise power shot. That’s why Zelenoff always started out acting like it was going to be light sparring, and just threw a power shot right off the bat.

Ahhh... now I understand. Thanks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Quick, sharp shots to the face become part of controlling the space and preventing big punches (because those take too long). In light sparring, those sharp shots to the face are slowed and pulled, making it easy to step in and throw a surprise power shot. That’s why Zelenoff always started out acting like it was going to be light sparring, and just threw a power shot right off the bat.

In stead of light contact sparring, you can have 2 options:

1. Full powerful punch on your opponent's shoulder.
2. Full powerful punch next to your opponent's face (into the thin air).

IMO, 1 > 2

Even in wrestling, we still train full powerful striking on opponent's arms. This way, people will not ignore the striking.