Teaching Challengers

[Martial D]

Agreed it's just stupid the only thing it does is disrupt the class for the students who've paid money to train. If I've paid whatever I pay a month I want the teacher to be training I don't want to be sitting around watching the coach fight some nobody

This is where we differ. If I was in a class learning fighting skills from a dude, and someone off the street challenged my instructor (say I was taking it mostly on faith if he was actually any good or not, as most students do), and my instructor put on a technical whooping clinic on him, I'd feel better about what I was doing.

Also, I'll miss 2 mins of drills to watch a fight 7 days a week lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Again, the challenge fight should not be as violent as people may think. Today, if someone challenges me, I will just make the challenge as simple as the following.

If you can

- take me down within 2 minutes, or
- punch my head within 1 minute,

you win, otherwise, you lose.

Since I let you play the offense and I just play the defense, in the worse case, you can't take me down, or your punch can't hit my head. There will be no violent involved.

 

[JR 137]

That's just nonsense and egotistical tbh. Just because you can beat someone in a fight doesn't mean the styles better or worse and it definitely doesn't determine who the better teacher is.

Yeah gr at the Gracie's went and fought people when no one knew what jiu jitsu was. Funny they don't do that anymore now that people are aware of it. Same as how Royce Gracie stopped fighting as soon as fighters started improving and he started having a harder time with opponents e.g Dan Severn, kimo, Heith Hackney, shamrock etc

I didn’t say it was a good thing; I was saying that’s how it went. People thought if the teacher is a badass fighter, they’ll be one too. I guess badass by association or something.

Stupid, but it was what it was. Just like Gracie BJJ catching on like wildfire.

 

[JR 137]

This is where we differ. If I was in a class learning fighting skills from a dude, and someone off the street challenged my instructor (say I was taking it mostly on faith if he was actually any good or not, as most students do), and my instructor put on a technical whooping clinic on him, I'd feel better about what I was doing.

Also, I'll miss 2 mins of drills to watch a fight 7 days a week lol

So if Angelo Dundee got challenged and dropped, would you leave his gym? Cus D’amato?

 

[Martial D]

So if Angelo Dundee got challenged and dropped, would you leave his gym? Cus D’amato?

Of course not. I might ask the guy that beat them for a tip or two however

 

[Kababayan]

I've only witnessed one person come into my Dojo and challenge one of the instructors. Long story short, the instructor easily handled him(after he signed the release) and knocked the wind out of him. He signed up for classes afterwards and trained for a few months.

My question is after beating them, would you agree to teach someone who walked in off the streets and challenged you? Do you see such behavior as a reflection of their character or a red flag? Why or why not?

I haven't read the entire thread responses, so I apologize if I am repeating what someone else had already said. I had a few people come into my dojo and challenge me. I never accepted because of liability issues. A good lawyer can tear apart any waiver that a person signs. Especially, if it takes place in your dojo. Plus, there isn't any up-side for me as the dojo owner to fight a challenger. If I win, I'm supposed to win...if I lose, I may lose students or at least their confidence in my abilities to teach. I wouldn't dance around the issue with the challenging students; I would be very blunt with them. I would tell them that I don't spar/fight students because of liability issues...that's it. That way everyone saves face.

 

[Anarax]

So if Angelo Dundee got challenged and dropped, would you leave his gym? Cus D’amato?

That's a good point. There are definitely knowledgeable and highly technical trainers/instructors that can help you progress as a martial artist/fighter even if they themselves can't physically compete at the level with those they train. D'amato nor Dundee were ever pro fighters but they produced phenomenal champions.

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess the challenge matches were big back in the day because if the CI lost, he lost credibility as a teacher and his students would leave. It was a way of gaining students for the challenger, not gaining the challenger as a student.

So I’d walk into the Headhunter dojo and challenge you. I’d beat you, then tell your students “if you want to learn REAL MA, come to the JR-Do-Te dojo down the street. And students would. I’m not talking feudal Japan and the like, I’m talking as late as the mid-late 80s. The Gracies barn stormed dojos to spread BJJ, which is pretty much the same thing.

Edit: Not 100% what this thread is all about, but relevant.

I keep thinking that people must have be real simpletons back in the day, to fall for such crap.

The biggest A-hole in town just showed up and wrecked the place, so now I’m gonna go and become his student...

Nah, I can’t see that happening except for those who have a propensity for becoming a big A-hole themselves.

 

[Flying Crane]

One day one guy walked into my school. He picked up a dumbbell from the ground and started to hit on his own head. He then said, "This is what I do everyday (a tough guy)". I pulled out a Colt 45, pointed at my head, and empty the bullets. I then said, "This is what I do everyday (another tough guy)." He turned around and left.

Ok, out-crazy the crazy is one way to get through life...

 

[JR 137]

That's a good point. There are definitely knowledgeable and highly technical trainers/instructors that can help you progress as a martial artist/fighter even if they themselves can't physically compete at the level with those they train. D'amato nor Dundee were ever pro fighters but they produced phenomenal champions.

Fighting and teaching how to fight aren’t one in the same. Same for any physical activity. You gauge a fighter’s abilities by watching them fight. You gauge a teacher’s abilities by watching their students. Some can excel at fighting AND teaching, most others excel at one or the other.

My previous sensei was one of the most naturally talented karateka I’ve ever been around. He was strong, fast, agile and very smart. What would any of that do for me? Entertain me? Make me feel like “my sensei can beat up your sensei?” Get beat up in really cool ways in sparring? For the record, he was a very good teacher too.

My current teacher doesn’t spar very much. I’ve sparred with him once - during a promotion test when he didn’t have enough sparring partners for me. He needs yet another hip replacement, so he’s not very agile. When he does drill with us, you can see when he’s reached his limit and backs off. But here’s the thing - he’s an excellent teacher. He breaks down my flaws and gives me very realistic fixes that’ll work for me. And what he tells me isn’t the same things he tells everyone in the dojo. He does the same for everyone else too. He’s a better teacher than my previous sensei. He’s got a lot more experience now than my former sensei had back then, so that’s not a knock on my previous sensei. In all fairness and maybe I’m shooting myself in the foot here, but by all accounts my current teacher was a very good karateka before his hip issues.

A lot of the greatest athletes have tried coaching their respective sports, and it didn’t work out for them. Playing success doesn’t guarantee coaching success. How many great players became great coaches? Larry Bird (although he only coached for 3 seasons, as he promised when he agree to coach) and Bill Russell. Someone said Zinadine Zidane, so I’ll have to accept that with only knowing his soccer playing career. I really can’t think of anyone else, except a person or two from back so far that they’re not relevant to this conversation, like Curly Lambeau.

 

[JR 137]

I keep thinking that people must have be real simpletons back in the day, to fall for such crap.

The biggest A-hole in town just showed up and wrecked the place, so now I’m gonna go and become his student...

Nah, I can’t see that happening except for those who have a propensity for becoming a big A-hole themselves.

Again, it worked for the Gracies, so it’s not like we’re talking about that long ago. A lot of people left TMA and the like for BJJ due to the outcome of the challenges. I’m not saying it was good or bad; just calling it as I see it.

And those people (the ones that left due to the challenges and the ones who’ve seen MMA success) aren’t all A-holes. Some are, but many aren’t.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is where we differ. If I was in a class learning fighting skills from a dude, and someone off the street challenged my instructor (say I was taking it mostly on faith if he was actually any good or not, as most students do), and my instructor put on a technical whooping clinic on him, I'd feel better about what I was doing.

Also, I'll miss 2 mins of drills to watch a fight 7 days a week lol

To some extent, I agree. If my instructor is in his 60's, and the challenger is in his 30's, the instructor losing means little on its face. If the instructor is a big guy and the challenger is smaller, the same holds true (except where I can see real technique and control being used).

On the whole, though, I'm more concerned with how well the instructor teaches than with how well he fights. I'm paying him to teach me, not to fight for me.

 

[JR 137]

Of course not. I might ask the guy that beat them for a tip or two however

You really need tips on how to beat an out of shape old man that hasn’t fought in decades? Maybe you’re in the wrong dojo.

All in good fun, of course.

 

[Martial D]

You really need tips on how to beat an out of shape old man that hasn’t fought in decades? Maybe you’re in the wrong dojo.

All in good fun, of course.

We don't have any out of shape old men. I'm probably the closest thing to that we have.

 

[JR 137]

We don't have any out of shape old men. I'm probably the closest thing to that we have.

Actually, we’ve got our share of old guys who are broken down a bit and not in the best shape. And they can make me look like a fool during sparring whenever they really want to.

One guy in particular is about 65, has had numerous spine and neck surgeries, and has this Quasimodo posture and walk to him. I call him the custodian because he can sweep me like it’s his job. On my way in, I can get swept. On my way out, I can get swept. Most of the time he gives me a nice tap on my ankle to let me know. When I start ignoring it, he all out sweeps me and laughs. I know it’s coming every time and there’s nothing I can do. Then he loves it when I get really close. He leans on me and makes me carry both of our weight. I push, he either doesn’t move (he’s been called a mountain of a man several times) or he uses my push against me and I’m in trouble. I let him push, and he immediately does something else because he’s too smart for that trap. Yeah, he’s either got some judo or wrestling experience or just knows the whole push-pull dynamics. And we’ve got more or less the same reach, so it’s not like I can pick him apart without getting into his range. But he’s old, slow, and decrepit so myself being a 42 year old whippersnapper should have a field day with him.

I love the old guys who’ve been at it as long as I’ve been alive. They’re sharp as hell and make me feel like the idiot who falls for every booby trap they set. For some reason unbeknownst to me, I keep chasing them and end up playing right into their hands. Or feet. I want to fight like them, only as a young guy

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To some extent, I agree. If my instructor is in his 60's, and the challenger is in his 30's, the instructor losing means little on its face. If the instructor is a big guy and the challenger is smaller, the same holds true (except where I can see real technique and control being used).

On the whole, though, I'm more concerned with how well the instructor teaches than with how well he fights. I'm paying him to teach me, not to fight for me.

Should a student suppose to fight for his instructor?

In some MA schools, students are just the teacher's "biting dogs". When a teacher told his student to meet him some place at a certain time, the student would know that there would be a challenge fight that day. The student would fight for the 1st round and the teacher would fight for the 2nd round.

Again, most of the challenge fight can be as simple as

- if you take me down, you win.
- If I take you down, I win.

There will be no fist flying. Some time the challenger will even say, "When you throw me, please hold me up and don't smash me too hard." You will also respond, "Same here!". The wrestling art world challenge is much more civilized than the striking art world challenge.

Some challenge can be as simple as someone gets a bear hug on you from behind and asks you what can you do about it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Should a student suppose to fight for his instructor?

In some MA schools, students are just the teacher's "biting dogs". When a teacher told his student to meet him some place at a certain time, the student would know that there would be a challenge fight that day. The student would fight for the 1st round and the teacher would fight for the 2nd round.

Again, most of the challenge fight can be as simple as

- if you take me down, you win.
- If I take you down, I win.

There will be no fist flying. Some time the challenger will even say, "When you throw me, please hold me up and don't smash me too hard." You will also respond, "Same here!". The wrestling art world challenge is much more civilized than the striking art world challenge.

Some challenge can be as simple as someone gets a bear hug on you from behind and asks you what can you do about it.

This is what I mean by a respectful challenge. If someone showed up and asked if he could grapple a bit with me, to get a feel for what we do, I'd consider it. If he asks to spar to see how good a fighter I am, it's less likely. How he approached would be a major factor.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is what I mean by a respectful challenge. If someone showed up and asked if he could grapple a bit with me, to get a feel for what we do, I'd consider it. If he asks to spar to see how good a fighter I am, it's less likely. How he approached would be a major factor.

What if I show up and ask to spar because I think itll be interesting?

 

[Headhunter]

Should a student suppose to fight for his instructor?

In some MA schools, students are just the teacher's "biting dogs". When a teacher told his student to meet him some place at a certain time, the student would know that there would be a challenge fight that day. The student would fight for the 1st round and the teacher would fight for the 2nd round.

Again, most of the challenge fight can be as simple as

- if you take me down, you win.
- If I take you down, I win.

There will be no fist flying. Some time the challenger will even say, "When you throw me, please hold me up and don't smash me too hard." You will also respond, "Same here!". The wrestling art world challenge is much more civilized than the striking art world challenge.

Some challenge can be as simple as someone gets a bear hug on you from behind and asks you what can you do about it.

I wouldn't fight some random just because I was asked to. I'd happily tell him hell no.

 

[JR 137]

What if I show up and ask to spar because I think itll be interesting?

I’m not answering for Gerry nor anyone else but myself here...

If I don’t know you and you want to spar because you think it’ll be interesting, my response would be to find something more interesting to do.

If I knew you and trusted your motives, I’d say let’s have a friendly sparring session in the hopes of both of us learning something new.