Tang soo Do - Hapkido question

[smbh]

Hi
I am new here but was hoping you guys can shed some light on a question I have about these two Arts.
I started in ITF Taekwondo many years ago and changed to Tang Soo Do after watching a demonstration in my home town in Australia.
I trained there for 4 years receiving my 1st degree Black belt in 1998, I stopped training in Tang Soo Do due to moving for work purposes.
About a year ago I Started training in Hapkido, so far everything I have been training in hapkido I have already done in Tang Soo Do, not that that is a problem as I just want to train.
My question is has anybody else experienced the same thing with these two arts and is it common for them to be technically the same ?

 

[lklawson]

There are many variation of each; TKD, TSD, HKD. Depending on which "history" you believe, there are often common roots included in the systems' synthesis. Further, it is common for instructors to train, or have trained, in two or more.

That said, most often, the three systems are not "technically the same." While there may often be strong similarities, there are also almost certainly going to be differences and some of those may sometimes be important differences.

So while different incarnations of the three systems may often be quite similar, and while experience in one may lead to easier understanding and advancement in another, the systems are not clones of each other.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[smbh]

There are many variation of each; TKD, TSD, HKD. Depending on which "history" you believe, there are often common roots included in the systems' synthesis. Further, it is common for instructors to train, or have trained, in two or more.

That said, most often, the three systems are not "technically the same." While there may often be strong similarities, there are also almost certainly going to be differences and some of those may sometimes be important differences.

So while different incarnations of the three systems may often be quite similar, and while experience in one may lead to easier understanding and advancement in another, the systems are not clones of each other.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

There are many variation of each; TKD, TSD, HKD. Depending on which "history" you believe, there are often common roots included in the systems' synthesis. Further, it is common for instructors to train, or have trained, in two or more.

That said, most often, the three systems are not "technically the same." While there may often be strong similarities, there are also almost certainly going to be differences and some of those may sometimes be important differences.

So while different incarnations of the three systems may often be quite similar, and while experience in one may lead to easier understanding and advancement in another, the systems are not clones of each other.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Thank you Kirk.
I have noticed although the techniques are similar they are executed slightly different. my nephew is South Korean and what he learnt in the military he calls TKD but it is just like TSD in every way to me.

 

[Buka]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Smbh.

From my perspective, I can't even find two TKD schools, or two TSD schools that are the same, never mind comparing them to each other. Same with the Hapkido I've been exposed to. But, I kind of enjoy that.

I teach part time in a Tang Soo Do school now, but I don't teach Tang Soo Do. Ain't the Arts grand?

 

[lklawson]

Thank you Kirk.
I have noticed although the techniques are similar they are executed slightly different. my nephew is South Korean and what he learnt in the military he calls TKD but it is just like TSD in every way to me.

Years ago, ims, the Hwang family lost a trademark suit on the term "Tang Soo Do." TSD, as was argued by the opposition in the suit back then then, is now a generic phrase and the translation equivalent of "Karate." Further, TSD (now "Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan") as an art has suffered several fractures and splintered into several off-shoot arts.

Tang Soo Do is just not a definitive name any more.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[smbh]

Welcome to MartialTalk, Smbh.

From my perspective, I can't even find two TKD schools, or two TSD schools that are the same, never mind comparing them to each other. Same with the Hapkido I've been exposed to. But, I kind of enjoy that.

I teach part time in a Tang Soo Do school now, but I don't teach Tang Soo Do. Ain't the Arts grand?

Thank you.
I understand just what you are saying. guess it all just depends on the instructor but I also enjoy it as I learn a different prospective of the same art.
I have been involved in security for 20 years, working as a Bouncer and in CPP. I teach well used to teach security self defense to new personnel and that is a combination of TSD/HKD Mauy Boran and Taijutsu.
I love incorporating the different styles.

 

[Buka]

Thank you.
I understand just what you are saying. guess it all just depends on the instructor but I also enjoy it as I learn a different prospective of the same art.
I have been involved in security for 20 years, working as a Bouncer and in CPP. I teach well used to teach security self defense to new personnel and that is a combination of TSD/HKD Mauy Boran and Taijutsu.
I love incorporating the different styles.

I've been in the protective services racket for a long time, too. And I, too, really like incorporating things from different sources/styles.

There's so much good stuff out there.

 

[WaterGal]

What kind of things are you finding to be the same?

It's quite likely that your current and/or former teacher studied multiple arts, and are integrating things from them into their program to try to improve the training and give you different tools. For example, I'm familiar with a number of TKD teachers that also trained in HKD and incorporate some of the hoshinsul into their TKD program so their students can learn some basic joint locks and sweeps. Now, whether your TSD teacher taught you HKD moves or your HKD teacher is teaching TSD moves, I don't know. Or maybe the things you're talking about are basics that would normally be included in both programs, like how to throw a punch or do a back fall.

 

[smbh]

What kind of things are you finding to be the same?

It's quite likely that your current and/or former teacher studied multiple arts, and are integrating things from them into their program to try to improve the training and give you different tools. For example, I'm familiar with a number of TKD teachers that also trained in HKD and incorporate some of the hoshinsul into their TKD program so their students can learn some basic joint locks and sweeps. Now, whether your TSD teacher taught you HKD moves or your HKD teacher is teaching TSD moves, I don't know. Or maybe the things you're talking about are basics that would normally be included in both programs, like how to throw a punch or do a back fall.

I'm finding most things the same. from my striking techniques right through to joint manipulation, takedowns and throws.
the striking techniques do not surprise me at all as I know the share the same or similar leg and hand work.
I had a red belt in ITF TKD before switching to TSD in 94 and the kicks, punches, knee and elbow strikes were all the same.
I spent more time on the mat training in joint manipulation and throws in the type of TSD I did. just like the HKD I am doing now. The TSD I was doing was very circular just like the HKD.
My Master did tell me that it was not unusual for them to train in all three arts and teach under the one banner.

 

[smbh]

Either way I am not going to complain. all fore systems I have studied have proven effective in one way or another in my profession, once I weeded out what does and doesn't work over the years.

 

[lklawson]

I'm finding most things the same. from my striking techniques right through to joint manipulation, takedowns and throws.
the striking techniques do not surprise me at all as I know the share the same or similar leg and hand work.
I had a red belt in ITF TKD before switching to TSD in 94 and the kicks, punches, knee and elbow strikes were all the same.
I spent more time on the mat training in joint manipulation and throws in the type of TSD I did. just like the HKD I am doing now. The TSD I was doing was very circular just like the HKD.
My Master did tell me that it was not unusual for them to train in all three arts and teach under the one banner.

There's only so many ways to bend and break the human body and only so many ways to use the human body to accomplish those tasks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[smbh]

There's only so many ways to bend and break the human body and only so many ways to use the human body to accomplish those tasks.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I agree but I am thinking I originally leant more HKD than TSD

 

[oftheherd1]

My brief exposure to TKD was in the mid-60s. There was noting like HKD in our training. I think that was before the move by some TKD practitioners to combine all Korean MA into one school and one banner. Many did join that movement, under what I understand was immense pressure from the Korean government. TSD resisted for a while, and HKD refused to do any such thing as I understood it. Later TSD did join, and somehow, MDK got incorporated in many TSD schools.. Again, that is what seemed to happen, and I also understand that many will disagree having been told by their teachers it was different.

I can only say that for a very brief time I studied under an American 3rd Dan in MDK in the mid 60s, and there were forms, but also separate multi-attacker techniques. In the mid-80s at the US Army gym where I studied Hapkido, there was also a TSD class, which certainly didn't learn like I had when I studied TKD in the mid-60s. Whatever all that says.

It does sound as if there has been a lot of blending between the TSK and the HKD you have studied. Afik there were significant differences between the three, TKD, TSK, and HKD, at least as far back as the mid-60s. But it should all be good for you. You get the benefit of learning some very good things from all three arts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My brief exposure to TKD was in the mid-60s. There was noting like HKD in our training. I think that was before the move by some TKD practitioners to combine all Korean MA into one school and one banner.

Taekwondo did not exist at the time of the big push to unify the Kwans. That unification effort took place in the mid-1950's. The Kwans involved taught primarily striking (derived from Shotokan) with a little Judo and Chinese MA mixed in.

Many did join that movement, under what I understand was immense pressure from the Korean government. TSD resisted for a while

Also incorrect. TSD is the Korean pronunciation of the characters the Japanese pronounce "karate." The largest single Kwan in the unification was the Moo Duk Kwan, which taught TSD. So no, there was no resistance.

, and HKD refused to do any such thing as I understood it.

They didn't refuse because they didn't exist. To the best of my knowledge, there were no Hapkido kwan in Korea at the time of the unification. Can you show me a reliable source that demonstrates otherwise?

Later TSD did join,

Again, this is incorrect. TSD was the art taught by the Moo Duk Kwan (one of the original kwan in the unification movement) and was one of the names considered for the unified art they hoped to create. GM HWANG, Kee (the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan) left the unification movement with about 1/3 of the Moo Duk Kwan (the other 2/3 stayed) and went back to teaching TSD. He eventually changed the name of the art to Soo Bahk Do, but they never rejoined the unification movement.

and somehow, MDK got incorporated in many TSD schools..

That's flatly impossible, since MDK is not a style. It is a kwan. An org. A school. A school that originally taught TSD, then splintered into TKD MDK, TSD MDK and SBD MDK.

This very brief summary of the events is taken directly from a man who was there. Who was a student of GM HWANG until the split. It's easily corroborated from multiple sources that go into great detail about that time period.

You're certainly correct that there's very little connection between early TSD and early Hapkido. Many Hapkido branches now incorporate TKD-ish kicking techniques, and many TKD branches incorporate locks and throws which are Hapkido-ish in nature. Because, obviously, people learn from each other and bring in bits they find useful to their own schools. But not back in The Day.

 

[smbh]

My brief exposure to TKD was in the mid-60s. There was noting like HKD in our training. I think that was before the move by some TKD practitioners to combine all Korean MA into one school and one banner. Many did join that movement, under what I understand was immense pressure from the Korean government. TSD resisted for a while, and HKD refused to do any such thing as I understood it. Later TSD did join, and somehow, MDK got incorporated in many TSD schools.. Again, that is what seemed to happen, and I also understand that many will disagree having been told by their teachers it was different.

I can only say that for a very brief time I studied under an American 3rd Dan in MDK in the mid 60s, and there were forms, but also separate multi-attacker techniques. In the mid-80s at the US Army gym where I studied Hapkido, there was also a TSD class, which certainly didn't learn like I had when I studied TKD in the mid-60s. Whatever all that says.

It does sound as if there has been a lot of blending between the TSK and the HKD you have studied. Afik there were significant differences between the three, TKD, TSK, and HKD, at least as far back as the mid-60s. But it should all be good for you. You get the benefit of learning some very good things from all three arts.

The more I look into it the more I see you are right about all the blending of the 3 styles. as I said in a earlier post, my nephew is south Korean and was in the military for 6 years. we train together quite a lot and what he calls TKD I call HKD.
But you are right. the 3 styles have been great for me over the last 20 or so years, I look at them as one because that is the way I have been trained.

 

[oftheherd1]

...
They didn't refuse because they didn't exist. To the best of my knowledge, there were no Hapkido kwan in Korea at the time of the unification. Can you show me a reliable source that demonstrates otherwise?
...
You're certainly correct that there's very little connection between early TSD and early Hapkido. Many Hapkido branches now incorporate TKD-ish kicking techniques, and many TKD branches incorporate locks and throws which are Hapkido-ish in nature. Because, obviously, people learn from each other and bring in bits they find useful to their own schools. But not back in The Day.

Well, I did say I didn't know much about TKD, TSD, or MDK. Apparently even less than I thought. But I didn't make up what I said. I have read it somewhere, which admittedly I can't identify now. Or, as I mentioned, I did see TSD studied in Korea. They had a very unusual part of their studying; two men would face off and make mirrored moves with each other, whether a punch, kick, or whatever. Is that still being done?

As to Hapkido in Korea before any unification, the acknowledged founder, Choi Yong Sool, is not always given credit for inventing the name Hapkido. I can't vouch either way. But nobody seems to try and take credit from him for being the founder of the art. That, not too long after he returned to Korea from Japan. So I would say Hapkido was there, whether or not in the exact form studied today (but as you say, arts change), or whether or not the name was the same.

You may disagree. If so, do be it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, I did say I didn't know much about TKD, TSD, or MDK. Apparently even less than I thought. But I didn't make up what I said. I have read it somewhere, which admittedly I can't identify now. Or, as I mentioned, I did see TSD studied in Korea. They had a very unusual part of their studying; two men would face off and make mirrored moves with each other, whether a punch, kick, or whatever. Is that still being done?

No idea. I'm familiar with our shared history and origins, but I do TKD MDK, not TSD MDK.

As to Hapkido in Korea before any unification, the acknowledged founder, Choi Yong Sool, is not always given credit for inventing the name Hapkido. I can't vouch either way. But nobody seems to try and take credit from him for being the founder of the art. That, not too long after he returned to Korea from Japan. So I would say Hapkido was there, whether or not in the exact form studied today (but as you say, arts change), or whether or not the name was the same.

You may disagree. If so, do be it.

OK, so when did he open a Kwan in Korea and what was it called? The name of the art itself isn't all that important at this point, since TKD didn't exist either. And if this was prior to 1955, what evidence do we have that his school was invited to join the unification?

 

[oftheherd1]

No idea. I'm familiar with our shared history and origins, but I do TKD MDK, not TSD MDK.



OK, so when did he open a Kwan in Korea and what was it called? The name of the art itself isn't all that important at this point, since TKD didn't exist either. And if this was prior to 1955, what evidence do we have that his school was invited to join the unification?

Sorry, for some reason I thought you did TSD.

When did he open a Kwan in Korea? You've got me there. But in an interview I have read concerning that, the indication is that he was involved in a fight at a brewery, and when the owner's son saw that he asked him to teach him. Later the son opened a school for teaching of the art Choi knew. I don't recall the exact time frame given, but I have the feeling it was before 1950. Did he open a Kwan at that time? I have not idea if the idea of Kwans was even in existence. In all this I have to confess I never really delved into it.

I was quite satisfied to simply accept the instruction given by JG Rhee when I studied TKD, and later by my GM when I studied HKD. It was good enough for me to have them as teachers. My GM and I had a couple of conversations about Hapkido and where it came from, and some of the well known Hapkido early practitioners. He mentioned several whom he knew, but the only name I knew of them was Bong Soo Han. But I just never got into that. In today's martial arts world I suppose that sounds strange.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sorry, for some reason I thought you did TSD.

Nope. Never have. Just familiar in a purely academic way due to our shared history. My KJN was part of the 2/3 of the MDK that stayed with the KTA after GM HWANG split off. You can actually tell a lot about a schools lineage from what they teach. We teach (primarily) the Palgwae forms, which means we're TKD MDK and teach the way TKD was taught in the early days.

When did he open a Kwan in Korea? You've got me there. But in an interview I have read concerning that, the indication is that he was involved in a fight at a brewery, and when the owner's son saw that he asked him to teach him. Later the son opened a school for teaching of the art Choi knew. I don't recall the exact time frame given, but I have the feeling it was before 1950. Did he open a Kwan at that time? I have not idea if the idea of Kwans was even in existence. In all this I have to confess I never really delved into it.

Honestly, that sounds like the sort of Origin Myth that so many systems have. Sort of like the claims that TKD had a 2000 year history. Understandable, to some extent, considering the backlash against Japan after the occupation was finally lifted. But regrettable if you're trying to study the actual history.
Does the son have a name? Does the kwan the son opened have a name?
The 5 kwan that made up the original KTA were all started in the mid- to late- 1940's. (The Moo Duk Kwan was started in 1945, for example.) They could not have been formed prior to that because Japan was still occupying Korea, and vigorously suppressing Korean culture. All of these kwan were striking schools. The Ji Do Kwan reportedly had some minor Judo influences and both the Ji Do Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan claimed some Kung Fu influence, but the root systems were all predominately Shotokan derived. Certainly none of these kwan were practicing anything with origins in Daito-Ryu.

I was quite satisfied to simply accept the instruction given by JG Rhee when I studied TKD, and later by my GM when I studied HKD. It was good enough for me to have them as teachers. My GM and I had a couple of conversations about Hapkido and where it came from, and some of the well known Hapkido early practitioners. He mentioned several whom he knew, but the only name I knew of them was Bong Soo Han. But I just never got into that. In today's martial arts world I suppose that sounds strange.

Sure. Not everybody is interested in digging into the history and it certainly doesn't have any real impact on your ability to learn the style. I'm just nerdy that way.
From what I know and can quickly find out, Bong Soo Han trained initially in the striking arts, trained some with Choi (after that it gets sort of nebulous) and opened his first school in 1959 - four years after the KTA was formed - so he couldn't have been involved.

 

[oftheherd1]

Nope. Never have. Just familiar in a purely academic way due to our shared history. My KJN was part of the 2/3 of the MDK that stayed with the KTA after GM HWANG split off. You can actually tell a lot about a schools lineage from what they teach. We teach (primarily) the Palgwae forms, which means we're TKD MDK and teach the way TKD was taught in the early days.

So I have gathered from different posts here. When I studied TKD our lowest forms were called H forms. I don't know it they aren't used any more or are taught under a different name.

Honestly, that sounds like the sort of Origin Myth that so many systems have. Sort of like the claims that TKD had a 2000 year history. Understandable, to some extent, considering the backlash against Japan after the occupation was finally lifted. But regrettable if you're trying to study the actual history.

I have Kimm He-Young's first book where he goes to great lengths to show how Hapkido goes back that far through the Hwa Rang knights of the Shilla dynasty. My GM told me all the old GMs knew Hapkido came from a Korean who came from Japan. To be able to tell people that makes me feel good that I know that much about my art, and don't have to make anything up.

Does the son have a name? Does the kwan the son opened have a name?
The 5 kwan that made up the original KTA were all started in the mid- to late- 1940's. (The Moo Duk Kwan was started in 1945, for example.) They could not have been formed prior to that because Japan was still occupying Korea, and vigorously suppressing Korean culture. All of these kwan were striking schools. The Ji Do Kwan reportedly had some minor Judo influences and both the Ji Do Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan claimed some Kung Fu influence, but the root systems were all predominately Shotokan derived. Certainly none of these kwan were practicing anything with origins in Daito-Ryu.

I can only go by what I find on line. At Hapkido - Wikipedia I found the following:

Seo Bok-Seob[edit]
Main article: Seo Bok-Seob
Choi's first student and the first person known to have opened up a dojang under Choi was Seo Bok-Seob (서복섭, also spelled Suh Bok-Sup).[3]

In 1948, when Seo Bok-sub was still in his early 20s, he had already earned his black belt in judo and was a graduate of Korea University. After watching Choi Yong-Sool successfully defend himself against a group of men when an argument erupted in the yard of the Seo Brewery Company, Seo who was son of the chairman of the company, invited Choi to begin teaching martial arts to him and some workers at the distillery where he had prepared a dojang.[20]

In 1951, Seo opened up the first proper dojang called the "Daehan Hapki Yukwonsool Dojang (대한합기유권술도장)". Seo also incorporated many of judo´s throws and ground work techniques to the teachings of master Choi. The first symbol for Hapkido was designed by Seo, which was used to denote the art was the inverted arrowhead design featured in both the modern incarnation of the KiDo Association and by Myung Kwang-Sik's World Hapkido Federation. Choi Yong-Sool was also employed during this time as a bodyguard to Seo's father who was a congressman. Seo and Choi agreed to shorten the name of the art from 'hapki yu kwon sool' to 'hapkido' in 1959.[21]

Sure. Not everybody is interested in digging into the history and it certainly doesn't have any real impact on your ability to learn the style. I'm just nerdy that way.
From what I know and can quickly find out, Bong Soo Han trained initially in the striking arts, trained some with Choi (after that it gets sort of nebulous) and opened his first school in 1959 - four years after the KTA was formed - so he couldn't have been involved.

The site I referenced above gives short biographies of some other early Hapkido teachers, including Bong Soo Han. I cannot vouch for any of them, but they no doubt have some things right. But as you mentioned, all Korean arts have a tendency to exaggerate their history. And it is sad. If your art is good, what does age give it?