Tang Soo Do and Karate (not Shotokan)

[kbarrett]

From what I've learned over the years is that GM Hwang Kee's main training comes from China, he train with the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do under GM Won Kuk Lee for a short time and it's widely believe this is where he learn the pyong ahn's and most of the other hyungs, I also know Kim Ki Whang also helped GM Hwang Kee learn most of teh Hyungs (kata) that makes up the Tang Soo do Hyungs, as for the rest, I'm not really sure he ever really learned those hyungs, as for the book we all know you can only learn so much from books they help, but they don't teach you the finer point of the hyungs.

Ken Barrett

 

[Tez3]

This is my first inclination, however, I am open minded to any evidence to the contrary. I certainly have no firm opinion.

Here is something else to consider. Rohai is a common form that is still practiced today in many TSD dojangs. This form did not come from Shotokan. They don't practice it. They practice Meikyo, which is a combination of various kata principles related to Rohai.

Therefore, he must have learned it from somewhere else. To my knowledge, this kata was not portrayed in any of the books that he studied or would have been published at the time. This means that he had at least one different karate teacher. Who was it?

Could it also have been possible that he trained in Goju? Or maybe Shito Ryu?

Rohai is done in Wado Ryu if that's any help.

 

[dancingalone]

Rohai is done in Wado Ryu if that's any help.

I think Wado does one of the Itosu Rohai forms, but not all three. Most of the TSD performances of Lohai I've seen seem to be a derivation of Matsumura Rohai which argues for additional connection outside of Shotokan karate as discussed above.

It's all good.

 

[punisher73]

From what I've learned over the years is that GM Hwang Kee's main training comes from China, he train with the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do under GM Won Kuk Lee for a short time and it's widely believe this is where he learn the pyong ahn's and most of the other hyungs, I also know Kim Ki Whang also helped GM Hwang Kee learn most of teh Hyungs (kata) that makes up the Tang Soo do Hyungs, as for the rest, I'm not really sure he ever really learned those hyungs, as for the book we all know you can only learn so much from books they help, but they don't teach you the finer point of the hyungs.

Ken Barrett

Are you saying that he learned the Pyong ahn's in China? Or the other Hyungs? All of the kata mentioned as being known in TSD are traced to Okinawa/Japan and have never been found in China as they are practiced by those styles. The one exception to that has been Sanchin/Sam Chien.

 

[cdunn]

Are you saying that he learned the Pyong ahn's in China? Or the other Hyungs? All of the kata mentioned as being known in TSD are traced to Okinawa/Japan and have never been found in China as they are practiced by those styles. The one exception to that has been Sanchin/Sam Chien.

Not really -> The lost point here is that whatever the Kwan Jang Nim learned in China(from sources debatable), when he came back to Korea and established Moo Duk Kwan Hwa Soo Do, his school was a commercial failure. At this point, he learned the Pyungahn sequence(from sources debatable), and reestablished the Moo Duk Kwan as Tang Soo Do.

 

[kbarrett]

Just what Mr. Dunn said, Thanks.

Ken

 

[Tez3]

As I've said before the Pyong Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan and Heien katas only with the depth and a lot of the stances taken out. It shows someone learned them from an Okinawan/Japanese practitioner and changed them slightly not so much that they aren't readily recognised though and gave them a Korean name.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

As I've said before the Pyong Ahn hyungs are the same as the Pinan and Heien katas only with the depth and a lot of the stances taken out. It shows someone learned them from an Okinawan/Japanese practitioner and changed them slightly not so much that they aren't readily recognised though and gave them a Korean name.

I think that the "depth and stances" issue really depends on the school, style, and practitioner. For example:

Shotokan Heian Yondon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAiTCcatbY&feature=related

Me a while back, Pyung Ahn Sah Dan:

There are certainly differences, but I would argue no more different than one would find within differing ryus.

 

[Tez3]

I think that the "depth and stances" issue really depends on the school, style, and practitioner. For example:

Shotokan Heian Yondon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrAiTCcatbY&feature=related

Me a while back, Pyung Ahn Sah Dan:

There are certainly differences, but I would argue no more different than one would find withindiffering ryus.

I find Yondan one of the simplest katas to do. Here is the definitive Wado Ryu version, this is the totally correct way for the Wado one to be done. You can't get better than the founder doing it. The basic point is though the Pyungs are not originally Korean.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I find Yondan one of the simplest katas to do. Here is the definitive Wado Ryu version, this is the totally correct way for the Wado one to be done. You can't get better than the founder doing it. The basic point is though the Pyungs are not originally Korean.

I don't think that was being debated here, was it? It is quite obvious that the pyung ahn hyungs are versions of Itosu's Pinan Katas. There is evidence to suggest that they were transmitted to Tang Soo Do namely via Shotokan and/or Shudokan lineages. There is no form that I practice in our association that isn't an adaptation of an Okinawan/ Japanese Kata. While some, would argue that the movements in these forms could be traced back to China, I'm not going to debate that issue.

Some Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do practicioners do practice form sets that Hwang Kee did formulate, and some forms that were "taken" from the Moo Ye Dobo Tong Ji, which is essentially a Chinese military text transcribed to Korean back in the 1500's, if I remember correctly. However, I do not practice these form sets.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think that was being debated here, was it? It is quite obvious that the pyung ahn hyungs are versions of Itosu's Pinan Katas. There is evidence to suggest that they were transmitted to Tang Soo Do namely via Shotokan and/or Shudokan lineages. There is no form that I practice in our association that isn't an adaptation of an Okinawan/ Japanese Kata. While some, would argue that the movements in these forms could be traced back to China, I'm not going to debate that issue.

Some Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do practicioners do practice form sets that Hwang Kee did formulate, and some forms that were "taken" from the Moo Ye Dobo Tong Ji, which is essentially a Chinese military text transcribed to Korean back in the 1500's, if I remember correctly. However, I do not practice these form sets.

From previous posts.

Originally Posted by kbarrett
From what I've learned over the years is that GM Hwang Kee's main training comes from China, he train with the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do under GM Won Kuk Lee for a short time and it's widely believe this is where he learn the pyong ahn's and most of the other hyungs, I also know Kim Ki Whang also helped GM Hwang Kee learn most of teh Hyungs (kata) that makes up the Tang Soo do Hyungs, as for the rest, I'm not really sure he ever really learned those hyungs, as for the book we all know you can only learn so much from books they help, but they don't teach you the finer point of the hyungs.

Ken Barrett

Originally Posted by punisher73
Are you saying that he learned the Pyong ahn's in China? Or the other Hyungs? All of the kata mentioned as being known in TSD are traced to Okinawa/Japan and have never been found in China as they are practiced by those styles. The one exception to that has been Sanchin/Sam Chien.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What, Mr. Barrett states, reaffirms my statement. LEE Won Kuk held rank in Shotokan, and KIM Ki Whang held rank in Shudokan. And it appears, Punisher was asking for clarification. Either way, I don't disagree with your statements TEZ :bangahead:

 

[cdunn]

For Reference:
Shudokan Rohai:

A TSD Rohai:

Meikyo:

Itosu Rohai is divided up across several kata, and are very different to the Matsumura derived rohai.

 

[kbarrett]

I've seen other Rohai Hyung/kata like these, that why it's widely believe that GM Hwang Kee learn hsi hyung from other sources and not just from GM Won Kuk Lee, and it would seem Kim Ki Whang was most likely that source.

Ken

 

[Kinghercules]

Hwang Kee learned martial arts from many different styles of karate. In fact, if you look at his book, Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Vol. One, he lists a number of forms that come from all kinds of karate ryu. A large part of the TSD curriculum is inspired by Shotokan. However, how much is coming from other styles of karate?

From my understanding of the history Hwang Kee trained in China learning Tai Chi and he learned Shotokan from books. GM Ki Whang Kim told us that he taught Hwang Kee the Okinawan forms back in Korea.

 

[Makalakumu]

From my understanding of the history Hwang Kee trained in China learning Tai Chi and he learned Shotokan from books. GM Ki Whang Kim told us that he taught Hwang Kee the Okinawan forms back in Korea.

My point in starting this thread was to point out that Hwang Kee may have had other sources that he learned from beyond Shotokan. This probably occurred after the MDK was founded. Check out the videos of Rohai posted above.