Talking bad about Hwarang Do

[Kodanjaclay]

Steve,

I agree... tell ya what... let's start from the beginning. What is right with it, and what is wrong with it. Remember, no system is perfect.

 

[dosandojang]

I support Bob D. From what I have read from him, they really did him wrong...

 

[dosandojang]

Well I am not claiming to know all of HRD, or to know more than any of the Lees. From what I know, they were very, very good at HKD. But from reading their stuff, and that of Bob, I feel that they really screwed him over. And the way they did him and others, is not how Martial Arts Grand Masters should be....

 

[shesulsa]

Why am I not surprised?
Also, Lee has taken to calling his color belt curriculum "Tae Soo Do" which must be practiced to black belt before "Modern Hwa Rang Do" is taught. Those who remember Tae Kwon Do history will know that Tae Soo Do was the name used by the KTA immediately preceding Tae Kwon Do. It has nothing at all to do with Hwa Rang Do. Not only that, but apparently Lee has copyrighted the name Tae Soo Do. Once again, he is trying to link "Hwa Rang Do" with a history it has nothing to do with.

Joo Bang Lee has alienated some great martial artists by denouncing their rank - I study with one regularly and another on occasion, one of whom lived at the Lee dojang for years (that's plural). These men have been stripped of their rank according to WHRDA, then are accused of not teaching HRD - yet, as you say, "Tae Soo Do" is what is currently being taught in WHRDA dojangs everywhere and the syllabus my teachers learned is being taught as HRD to TSD black belts as an advanced course of study whereas we are still using HRD forms, techniques, etc.

How such an excellent fighting system can be so easily ruined is not difficult to see. Pity.

 

[dosandojang]

"It sounds like the plot to a bad martial arts film. In my opinion, Hwa Rang Do, Kuk Sool Won, and Hapkido are all basically the Same style: circular movements, TKD kicking, obsolete weapons, goofy uniforms, and questionable histories."


DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[miguksaram]

Oh, and your comment about "low ranking blackbelts" is a joke!
I would pay to see you teach any one of them something.

(Mod Note: edited on user request)

I would like for him to start with GM De Alba.

 

[miguksaram]

I support Bob D. From what I have read from him, they really did him wrong...

Mst. Duggan, Mst. Kim, Mst. De Alba as well as a few other ex-HRD black belts were screwed over by the Lees. This animosity on the Lees part, more Joo Bang Lee than the other, has dripped down to other HRD black belts who feel the need to comment against them without really knowing them. This can be seen in some articles written in TKDTimes by the resident HRD expert, and by Carsten. The bottom line is that only the "renegades" and the Lees know the true story. I personally train under and work with GM De Alba and he has taken his love of HRD and has evolved it to its next level.

(please note I use the term 'ex-HRD blackbelts because they were "expelled" from HRD. This is in no way to say that they have no skills, quite the contrary)

 

[dosandojang]

Sorry, but that is just WRONG to me! Take me for example, I hold a 5th Dan in Tang Soo Do. How can ANYONE EVER take that AWAY from me? They can kick me out of an Org, and they can even say my Rank is no longer valid to them, but they CANNOT take away what I earned! GM De Alba and those men, they are STILL Hwa Rang Do Black Belts! And they always will be!

 

[kwanjang]

GM DeAlba is a skillful and generous martial artists who has earned the respect of most he has touched in his career. They can rip up his certificates, and they can call him whatever they wish; but, the bottom line is that his peers admire him for his accomplishments, his skills, and his warm and outgoing personality. No one can take that away, not even the founders of the art. :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy et al:

The comments here reminded me of a short period where GM Myung put me out of the WHF until things were sorted out and he took me back in. During that time I had this very low feeling that everything that I had worked for had been taken from me. It took quite a while to discover that this was an illusion and that I was still as good after the event as before. There was also a side-benefit, in that suddenly not having a GM to answer to gave me permission to investigate outside of the YON MU Kwan "box". I still train in YMK but I have considerably greater insight into WHY certain things are done within the broader context of KMA than had I continued to just follow the crowd "cuz GM said so". Philosophically I have found this to more neatly conform to the intent of YMK Hapkido with its stress on delving deeply into the art, than just following the set practice day-in and day-out. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kodanjaclay]

A belt is little more than a personal landmark.

 

[shesulsa]

Mst. Duggan, Mst. Kim, Mst. De Alba as well as a few other ex-HRD black belts were screwed over by the Lees. This animosity on the Lees part, more Joo Bang Lee than the other, has dripped down to other HRD black belts who feel the need to comment against them without really knowing them. This can be seen in some articles written in TKDTimes by the resident HRD expert, and by Carsten. The bottom line is that only the "renegades" and the Lees know the true story. I personally train under and work with GM De Alba and he has taken his love of HRD and has evolved it to its next level.

(please note I use the term 'ex-HRD blackbelts because they were "expelled" from HRD. This is in no way to say that they have no skills, quite the contrary)

#1 I study under KSN Carmen Gallino who received his black belt from DJN Lee and KJN Ken Corona who also received his rank from DJN Lee (and who lived in his dojang for years). They are also taking HRD to the next level and I couldn't be more pleased with what I am learning nor whom I am learning from.

#2 This might start a whole new thread, but...once a black belt is given, can it really be taken away?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear She-Sulsa:

".....This might start a whole new thread, but...once a black belt is given, can it really be taken away?...."

In a word, "no".

Certainly the SYMBOLS can be taken, stolen or lost. Certainly ones' membership in an organization can be rescinded. Certainly a teacher can disavow any knowledge of a former student and/or his actions. However, a legitimate rank, earned through due process imparts a change to the character of the individual which cannot be undone by anyone save the individual themselves. A "Black Belt", strictly speaking, is not a "thing" as much as an attitude and a value indicating that someone has dedicated their life to a particular interpretation (typically reflected from ones' teacher) of the Path. Using the term "Black Belt" is just a convenient way of identifying someone who has made that commitment. It also works the other way as well. Not all the Black Cotton Belting in the World will make a person a dedicated practitioner if they have not made such a commitment. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Very true.

An Instructor can rescind the belt, the certificate, the recognition, and disavow the student as a member of his organization. However, the technique and changed body and mind are still there. Technically, the person could physically teach technique, he would just would have no authorization to do so. I've seen it happen. However, there will always be some organization that would take him, give him rank and recognition, and let him teach for them.

 

[Doc]

Very true.

An Instructor can rescind the belt, the certificate, the recognition, and disavow the student as a member of his organization. However, the technique and changed body and mind are still there. Technically, the person could physically teach technique, he would just would have no authorization to do so. I've seen it happen. However, there will always be some organization that would take him, give him rank and recognition, and let him teach for them.

Let's face it. First there is no one organization in any martial discipline that has an exclusive right to determine who is or isn't a particular rank. It simply doesn't exist. That authoritive extends only to those within the individual organization who choose to agree to allow the organization to make those decisions for them. Once an individual removes themself fom the organization, they take with them all that they have learned and accomplished good and/or bad. Organizations may choose to not recognize belts, and certificates but if you choose to longer be in the group, or the group no longer wants you, it means nothing except to those still in that group.

I think most give these organizations way too much power out of necessity in exchange for their recognition. If you're good, know what you're doing, and can demonstrate it, it really doesn't matter. A good teacher will always attract students. The only thing that matters to that student is the guy that stands in front of them and teaches them every night. If they're happy, why should they give a rats behind what some organization that probably has like most its share of some really lousy ranking people thinks anyway?

I went to college and graduated. I become a muderer which my university does not condone. I'm still a university graduate - even sitting on death row. You can't unring a bell. As an organization once you take a guys money and ring the bell - Live with it and be more careful next time.

Duh!

 

[shesulsa]

I went to college and graduated. I become a muderer which my university does not condone. I'm still a university graduate - even sitting on death row. You can't unring a bell. As an organization once you take a guys money and ring the bell - Live with it and be more careful next time.

Duh!

Well, even if you don't become a murderer the degree can't be rescinded...isn't that why the black belt test should be so difficult AND so carefully considered?

In the WHRDA case of these "expelled" black belts - Ed Parker had students he had disagreements with as to direction of the art...he didn't "expel" them or "demote" them or rescind their rank - he just sent them on their way with a wish for good luck.

So, I ask this question sans negativity, sans accusation, sans disrespect: I only ask just for discussion and consideration:

Why can't Do Joo Nim Lee do the same here?

 

[arnisador]

College degrees can be rescinded, though even for murderers it isn't often done.

 

[shesulsa]

Sorry, but that is just WRONG to me! Take me for example, I hold a 5th Dan in Tang Soo Do. How can ANYONE EVER take that AWAY from me? They can kick me out of an Org, and they can even say my Rank is no longer valid to them, but they CANNOT take away what I earned! GM De Alba and those men, they are STILL Hwa Rang Do Black Belts! And they always will be!

Right on!

 

[SageGhost83]

On the one hand, I grant that that doesn't seem plausible, and in my gut I've never truly believed it...on the other hand, where are the authentic Native American arts? Look at how few African arts survive. Arts die out--it happens.

There's just not much evidence of Korean arts surviving in other than document form--pictures passed down from earlier times, recreated in the way Pankration has been.

Actually, you'd be surprised how many styles are still alive and well, but kept hidden from the mainstream of society. There are native american and african arts that survive to this very day, they are just not advertised and sold as some sort of business. Not every culture wants to be exploited like that, some hold on to their arts and customs and keep it all "within the clan", so to speak. Honestly, why would native americans or africans want to share their arts with us anyways? We haven't exactly been nice to them throughout our history. An art is never officially dead until nobody practices it, period. Do you know every single person or family on the face of this planet? Furthermore, do you know what every single person or family on the face of this planet practices behind closed doors? I certainly know that I don't, which is why I never make beyond-the-shadow-of-a-doubt judgments - especially when the subject in question is outside of my own country and/or culture. I learned quickly to never say never because things are not always what they seem. As long as somebody somewhere is practicing it and preserving it, then neither an art or culture is dead, it just isn't mainstream and open for exploitation.

 

[Omar B]

Martial arts nerd I am my interest on this whole Hwa Rang Do and Sulsa piqued my interest and I thought I would dig around and check it out. I emailed them through their website asking if what I heard about having to renounce other styles of martial arts to test for a black belt and yes it's true. I'm sure it works great for some people studying one art but I firmly believe that most martial artists want to step outside their main style and see what else is out there. As awesome a style it might be I cannot sacrifice years of training in 3 styles for 1.

My brother in law got all excited about this whole thing too "Korean ninjas, damn cool, lets join" was what he said. He's my MA buddy, we train together, so we are both pretty disappointed about the whole thing. We both have no interest in mixing styles or creating a new style or teaching, our interest is merely in studying for the art itself. Oh well, knowing both of us we'll figure out a way.