Taijiquan Training Question

[Xue Sheng]

I was looking through a book I recently purchased “Chen Taijiquan” it is out of print so it was a little hard to find at a reasonable price thank you Amazon.com.

I have not yet really got into reading it much, it is fairly advanced and deals with a lot of Chen martial applications, but I was reading the histories of Chen Fake, Chen Xiaowang and Feng Zhuqiang (student of Chen Fake) and they all had something in common that I am sure all Tai Chi masters share form all families. They all trained the family form 10 to 20 times (or more) a day. Also Feng Zhuqiang did stance training for 2 hours a day.

Believe me there is a question here for the tai chi folks.

How many times a day do you practice your form?

Do you do any stance training?

If you do stance training, how long do you stand and how do you go about it?

Now what do I do, what did I do and what will I do

Now I know stance training is considered a bad thing or old and antiquated by many, but I am a bit of a traditionalist (I know that comes as a surprise to many) when it comes to training internal styles and I have been referred to as old and antiquated so it works for me. I am currently only up to 12 to 20 minutes a day in Chen style stance training and I am still switching legs after 5 minutes, so 5 minutes on the right leg, 5 minutes on the left leg, repeat. And when I last trained Xingyi I got to 30 minutes a day

But this doing the form 10 or more times a day made me think of my training and something my Yang Sifu said several years ago. He said “You need to train the long form at least 2 or 3 times a day if you want to understand Taiji”. Now I use to train it 2 or 3 times a day and at one point when I use to teach I was training it 5 times a day. But the last 3 years it was long form once, fast form once and 2 da dow forms once and it is really not the same to be honest.

Currently I am only doing my Yang form now once every other day so I do not forget it. I will be starting official Chen training with a teacher next week and I am fairly certain I will train that 2 or 3 times a day plus continue stance training.

Now with all that being said I will add it is very likely I will be posting less starting late next week, with starting Chen again, training Sanda, and trying not to forget Yang plus all the other responsibilities we all have my time will be at a premium. But I will still be around to rant occasionally.

I am really interested in hearing about your Taiji training so I look forward to your responses.

Xue Sheng :asian:

 

[charyuop]

I go to class 3 times a week where we practice for 1 hour. Then since I work overnight I use the parking lot of where I work (wal-mart) to practice during my lunch time (more or less 1 hour). But all day long I revise the movement in my mind and if I am not doing anything I throw in a movement here and there. While at work or at home doing something I try to move my legs according to forms and when what I am doing allows it I accompany legs with arms.

As per practicing stance I don't undertand what you mean exactly. If you mean keeping a stance for long time, no I don't. My teacher suggested me not to and I agree. Tai Chi Chuan is a whole thing thus makes no sense standing still in one position. It's in doing a whole movement that you find your errors and can fix them. The master of my teachers the other day told me that even tho so many years doing Tai Chi when she sees a film of her doing Tai Chi she still sometimes finds something that doesn't satisfy her and with a still stence she wouldn't see it. She said she trains everyday (don't know how many times tho) with a warm up, 8-24-48 and long form. She didn't mention about Chen style, but since she knows it I assume she trains that too everyday.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

I practise SOME taiji every day. I also teach about 7 classes a week at varying levels. These regular classes do not include demo's, seminars and class practise sessions. And I can say in all honesty, that is not enough!!!!

My practise will be doing a long form (105) and then spending some time on a particular aspect of the form. i.e. moving from the centre, being upright in every transition, posture timing, stopping without stopping etc. etc. etc.

I practise and teach Zhan Zhuang in all my classes. I think it is an absolute essential part of training, not only as a simple leg strengthening exercise, but as a wonderful practise for generating and developing stillness and internal strength and energy. I have studied Yi Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan) and absolutely love it. Again it is a very demanding discipline and my original teacher (Lam Kam Chuen) would have us standing for up to an hour.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

As per practicing stance I don't undertand what you mean exactly. If you mean keeping a stance for long time, no I don't. My teacher suggested me not to and I agree. Tai Chi Chuan is a whole thing thus makes no sense standing still in one position. It's in doing a whole movement that you find your errors and can fix them. The master of my teachers the other day told me that even tho so many years doing Tai Chi when she sees a film of her doing Tai Chi she still sometimes finds something that doesn't satisfy her and with a still stence she wouldn't see it. She said she trains everyday (don't know how many times tho) with a warm up, 8-24-48 and long form. She didn't mention about Chen style, but since she knows it I assume she trains that too everyday.

Glad to hear you’re training the form

But I must admit the part about stance training is a bit of a concern to me, stance training is very important for developing the root and the root is very important to Tai Chi. My Yang Sifu was a Student of Tung Ying Cheih and Tung was big on Stance training, as was and is the Chen family. You hold a position from a posture for a long period of time. It is all part of internal training, but like I said it is not trained much these days and it tends to be us older Dinosaurs with a lot of traditional training that do still train it.

You young guys tend to think it is a boring waste of time

See Pete Stars post on Stance training and you will get a better idea
Seven Years for Foundation

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37918

Also see East Winds response to the thread above.

I am not saying anything against your teacher but I doubt she knows Chen, She may know some Chen forms but doubtful Chen style. Chen Style consists of old form 1, old form 2, new form 1, new form 2, cannon fist, a single da dow form and double da dow form, at least one possibly 2 straight sword forms, staff form, spear form and Guan Dao form as well as Chen Silk reeling and Chen stance training.

 

[charyuop]

Well, maybe the Ma standing it can really be usefull (and I think I am going to introdue it in my daily routines...I tried now and I can barely reach a couple of minutes bleah). But I don't see the same purpose in holdin still other stances.

 

[East Winds]

Charyuop,

There are several (5) classic stances in Zhan Zhuang (pronounced Jam Jong and meaning Standing Pole or Stance Training) which are beginning level stances to develop stillness, internal strength, internal energy and as Xue Sheng correctly stated, rooting. Once you are able to hold these stances for a reasonable time (and it is important that the body structure is correct and relaxed!!!!! i.e. you really need a competent teacher), you can move on to the Yi Chuan or martial stances. In actual fact you can use any ending posture from Taijiquan as a Zhan Zhuang stance. There are two methods of training Zhan Zhuang, the "Water" method and the "Fire" method. The "Water" method says you adopt a posture, relax the mind and body and stand only for as long as you can maintain concentration on what you are doing. As soon as you find your mind has wandered, STOP. There is no point in carrying on as the stillness has been disturbed. You may only be able to last a few seconds initially, but then you try again, later. Gradually you will be able to extend the time you stand. You will actually start to enjoy standing!!!! The "Fire" method on the other hand means that you decide to stand for a set period (say, 5 minutes initially) and despite what happens during that time to your mind or body, you maintain the stance!!!!

Both methods have their supporters and both methods are equally valid. Pick the one that suits you best. It really is a wonderful discipline and done first thing in the morning for 2 minutes, will set you up for the rest of the day. However I cannot stress too much the need for a competent teacher who understands Zhan Zhuang.

Hope this clears up some points for you.

Very best wishes

 

[East Winds]

Charyuop,

Two good introductory books to Zhan Zhuang are :

The Way of Healing by Lam Kam Chuen

and

Warriors of Stillness (Vol.1) by Jan Diepersloot

Vey best wishes

 

[charyuop]

Hee hee, the problem is that...teachers. It took me 3 years to find the one I have, so I am in the cathegory "take it or leave it".
I am sure the real Master knows about those things, but the teachers by her certified might not. This is a class made for aged people who want to keep their joints moving, so they pay more attention to the correct position of feet and movement of the hands. They look at the movement more according to how good it is for their hips/knees than how much Chi they might feel or if they are not rooted 100%.
There inside I guess they haven't had anyone asking so many question like I did in the first 2 weeks LOL, but still I have to run along with the rest of the class.
The closest Tai Chi school here is 2 hours away from me and they have classes in the evining (I work overnight) which means even if I could afford gas+monthly fee (above all with the gas price now) I wouldn't have time to come back to go to work. Moreover my wife works morning so I have to take care of my baby and I go to bed when my wife comes home from work (4/5 pm) that would leave me no time to sleep LMAO.
Trust me in my situation I cannot be too much picky...maybe one day I will be able to work days and travel 4 hours a day to go to a decent school and there complete my training (or restart it).
For now I sponge all the suggestions I can from forums hee hee.

EDIT. By the way, that might be why I can keep the Ma stence for so short. Don't know normal stence, but my teacher said that ours is a little modified from the normal Tai Chi (parallel feet shoulder apart). We keep legs wide open with feet slightly angled so to go lower (my butt is about 1 foot from the floor). He said the reason is to move more hips/knees, thing they are interested in. But on the other hand he might be wrong and that is the actual Ma stence hee hee.

 

[charyuop]

Charyuop,

Two good introductory books to Zhan Zhuang are :

The Way of Healing by Lam Kam Chuen

and

Warriors of Stillness (Vol.1) by Jan Diepersloot

Vey best wishes

Thanks...on my way to amazon.com now

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hee hee, the problem is that...teachers. It took me 3 years to find the one I have, so I am in the cathegory "take it or leave it".
I am sure the real Master knows about those things, but the teachers by her certified might not. This is a class made for aged people who want to keep their joints moving, so they pay more attention to the correct position of feet and movement of the hands. They look at the movement more according to how good it is for their hips/knees than how much Chi they might feel or if they are not rooted 100%.
There inside I guess they haven't had anyone asking so many question like I did in the first 2 weeks LOL, but still I have to run along with the rest of the class.
The closest Tai Chi school here is 2 hours away from me and they have classes in the evining (I work overnight) which means even if I could afford gas+monthly fee (above all with the gas price now) I wouldn't have time to come back to go to work. Moreover my wife works morning so I have to take care of my baby and I go to bed when my wife comes home from work (4/5 pm) that would leave me no time to sleep LMAO.
Trust me in my situation I cannot be too much picky...maybe one day I will be able to work days and travel 4 hours a day to go to a decent school and there complete my training (or restart it).
For now I sponge all the suggestions I can from forums hee hee.

No time to give you the response this desereves, but I will say don't leave the class.

More later

 

[Xue Sheng]

The school and the teachers sound fine, you are beginning to train Tai Chi and the form is important.

I am just an old traditional guy that is sometimes way to picky, I am sorry if I gave you any doubts about your school.

And different teachers have different approaches to training. My first Tai Chi teacher did no stance training but we did a lot of forms work and I consider myself lucky to have trained with him when I did, and I learned an awful lot there. I still stop by his school from time to time to talk to him.

 

[charyuop]

I have no intention to abandon this school. Good or bad Tai Chi is all this town offers and it is for sure something I am enjoying alot (even if there is no martial art aspect in it). I have planned to stick with it at least 2 or 3 years before seriously considering a 4 hour day trip to go to another school.

 

[Xue Sheng]

enjoy

 

[Shrewsbury]

Standing is very, very important and not just for begginers. Holding stances during form practice? to me no.

The public forms are important for begginers but understanding how to freely move with the principles is far more important in my opinion and more time spent on free form (shadow boxing) will have much better results, again, my opinion

 

[Xue Sheng]

Holding stances during form practice?

No I do not think yo ushoud do that either but take any posture form the form and stand it at a different time is always a good idea.

Thanks for all the responses

 

[East Winds]

I agree. I was not suggesting that you stand during form practise. Standing and form practise are two entirely different (although related) things. You can take any end form posture and USE it as a Zhan Zhuang posture. Particularly any of the empty stance postures i.e. Stork Spreads Wings, Step Up to Raise Hands, Golden Cock Stands on One Leg, etc. etc.etc.

Very Best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Old post revisited, or possibly I am beating a dead horse, not sure.

I was just re-reading Chen Zhenglei's book "Chen Style Taijiquan, Sword and Broadsword" And I noticed that he too suggests that you practice your form 10 times a day, must be a Chen thing.

As I have said much early in this post, my Yang sifu says at least 3 times a day as did his teacher (TYC).

Now I do on occasion practice my long form 3 times a day but with everything else it is a bit difficult to fit everything in. Much of why I can see I need to make a decision about training here soon.

I was again wondering what the others here thought of this "at least" 10 to 3 times day stuff.

 

[hziervogel]

In each of our 2 hour classes we will spend the first hour doing Chen foundation work, of which about 30 to 40 minutes worth is done in a Chen stance. During the stance work we do negative and positive circles. I am very new to martial arts and taijiqaun, but I am beginning to see that this type of foundation work is essential for leaning the form and applications.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In each of our 2 hour classes we will spend the first hour doing Chen foundation work, of which about 30 to 40 minutes worth is done in a Chen stance. During the stance work we do negative and positive circles. I am very new to martial arts and taijiqaun, but I am beginning to see that this type of foundation work is essential for leaning the form and applications.

Chen Stance training.... That is GREAT!!!

Not to many taiji schools do stance training anymore and it is INCREDIBLY important to get a good foundation to work from. It strengthens your legs, teaches you the correct posture and body alignment and in the process you learn how to relax in the posture.

How much of this do you train on your own outside of class?

 

[hziervogel]

I try to train at least twice a week on my own and I take, on average, three two hour classes a week. I was told that I should practice daily, doing at least 200 and up to 800 circles a day, as well as form work, if I want to make progress.