Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity

[windwalker099]

Hunyuan is perfect harmony in/of the six directions and by so all directions and by so it steam from the true center.

Hunyuan force and awareness is omnipresent, in application any part of the body should be able express it, since its steam from true center its issued rather effortless.

The martial arts or all aspects of interacting is of mind/body unity, a skilled person can efficiently/effortlessly read such interactions to their advantage , psychology play a major part especially upon eye contact, the story Cui Ruibin recall about his teacher dwell into that.

Not only the eyes but one’s whole body, one’s posture, a move, work as vehicle of the mind, by this one can get a psychological upper hand depending how well balanced the mind/body is..

"Can you do any of the things shown in the article ?

Often read posts and wonder if the authors have actually experienced or can perform what they write about.
When I asked about the 'primordial state' the OP referred to, Was curious about its practical application.

For example..."

A noted Wu style master, explains the relationship between the virtual field and body.

You should be able to see the video embedded. It shows the same type of demo some have asked about in the article
explained in a different way. Whether one agrees with it or not, he demos applications based on the theory.

Yi Chuan
Interesting enough we had a Yi Chuan guy stop by to visit my teacher...
He wondered about my teachers practice, and wanted to test it.

He was unable to apply force to my teacher's body, my teacher in his 80s at the time.
He did the same test on some of the other students...they immediately were bounced back.

Have met some Yi Chaun people in my time, reminded me of the way some of the people who practiced Guang Ping Tai Chi felt, interacting with them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My opinion on Punch ->Clear arm combination is that it doesn't exist.

Hammer fist -> clear arm may not make sense. But jab -> parry (push your opponent's defense arm away) make sense. a jab can be done in 1/4 second. A parry can also be done in 1/4 second.

I believe the clear arm in my video is an am control. If your left hand can control your opponent's left arm, when you are on your opponent's left side door and hammer fist on top of his head, his right hand cannot reach you. But I will never use hammer fist to do the set up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The question is not how things appeared to you, it is how they should have appeared to you, and you did not recognize this failure.

Why should you care about "anything should have appeared to you?"

You have a goal. There are many paths that can help you to reach to that goal. You are the person to decide which path that you want (not should) to reach to your goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't even like the word humble. It is often abused.

A MA system should be your slave. You should be the master. You should have the courage to question, "Why did the Taiji form creator create hammer fist -> fetch arm?" If you are the slave of Taiji, you won't have the courage to ask. You may treat everything in the Taiji form as bible that cannot be change.

This is the opposite of humble.

不恨古人吾不见，恨古人不见吾狂耳
I don't hate I haven't met those ancient masters; I hate those ancient masters don't know how crazy I'm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You may treat everything in the Taiji form as bible that cannot be change.

The cure for this is sparring lol. When I get hit in the face, then I know something is wrong. lol. Trying a technique and getting hit in the face because it didn't work as I expected makes me think of a lot of questions lol.

It's really difficult to ignore getting hit in the face.

 

[Appledog]

The cure for this is sparring lol. When I get hit in the face, then I know something is wrong. lol. Trying a technique and getting hit in the face because it didn't work as I expected makes me think of a lot of questions lol.

It's really difficult to ignore getting hit in the face.

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" -- that sort of thing?

For me, when I get punched in the face I look upon it as my own personal failure. I would be hard pressed to call it a "cure" to believing in the value of my art. Nothing in the Tai Chi form may be changed until you master it.

I actually know someone who quit Tai Chi because he could only beat ~90% of the people he pushed hands with and he became disillusioned that maybe the art didn't really work. Frankly? I don't get it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hammer fist -> clear arm may not make sense. But jab -> parry (push your opponent's defense arm away) make sense. a jab can be done in 1/4 second. A parry can also be done in 1/4 second.

I believe the clear arm in my video is an am control. If your left hand can control your opponent's left arm, when you are on your opponent's left side door and hammer fist on top of his head, his right hand cannot reach you. But I will never use hammer fist to do the set up.

The closest I've ever gotten to use punch -> clear hand was in a similar manner. But it's really not Punch -> clear hand for me. It's more like what you mentioned. Punch -> Control hand.

I tried Punch -> Control hand where my hand is not clearing but is seeking control around the same area where I punched and it worked really good. Not only did it work really good. Some of the more difficult techniques naturally flowed off the position the technique left me in. So now I my mind thinks Punch - Control Hand and both are offensive actions

 

[JowGaWolf]

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" -- that sort of thing?

Almost, but more like. You don't know if a plane is going to fly until you fly it. lol. Here's the test procedure for testing planes

Here are some key steps:

Lab Testing: Before the final aircraft is completed, various components and systems undergo laboratory testing to simulate different environments and conditions.
Martial Arts: This will be your drilling and how you think it's going to work.

Ground Testing: The completed aircraft undergoes structural testing to measure its overall strength and durability. This includes testing the building materials and the plane's construction to ensure it can withstand the required loading conditions.
Martial Arts (I get hit in the face at this stage): This will be your light sparring. If you make a mistake in your theory you don't want to pay a big price for being wrong.

Flight Testing: The aircraft is then fitted with an array of monitors to record data during flight tests. These tests simulate various scenarios, including different weather conditions, weight distributions, and flight maneuvers.
Martial Arts (I get hit in the face at this stage): This is where you increase sparring intensity and get it as close to fighting without severly hurting your sparring partner. Then it's used in competition and against other systems. This is also the same phase when I learn the limitations and variations of the technique.

Certification: The data collected during the testing process is validated by regulatory authorities, such as the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), before the aircraft is declared safe to fly passengers2.
Martial Arts: The the technique is approved and is turned into a form.

 

[Appledog]

A MA system should be your slave. You should be the master. You should have the courage to question, "Why did the Taiji form creator create hammer fist -> fetch arm?" If you are the slave of Taiji, you won't have the courage to ask. You may treat everything in the Taiji form as bible that cannot be change.

This is the opposite of humble.

不恨古人吾不见，恨古人不见吾狂耳
I don't hate I haven't met those ancient masters; I hate those ancient masters don't know how crazy I'm.

Ah, I see what you did there.

Su Shi (a poet of the Song dynasty) was referring to Tao Yuanming, a poet of the Jin dynasty almost 1000 years prior. He was acknowledging his love for Tao Yuanming's work by contrasting that he was a free and active spirit (in contrast to Tao Yuanming). His lament was, that while he felt a compelling sense of connection to and respect for Tao Yuanming based on his depiction of freedom and creativity -- concepts which resonated deeply with Su Shi -- he wished that Tao Yuanming could see how Su Shi expressed those concepts in his wild and active life, which was itself a direct contrast to Tao Yuanming's reclusive, serene and detached lifestyle. In short, the lament was that Tao Yuanming could not see how Su Shi's boldness and free-spirited approach was based on Tao Yuanming's poetry, and was therefore also good.

It was because Su Shi respected the ancient master that he said this. Therefore I don't think it is valid to use his words as a criticism against following traditional martial arts. How is it possible you learned to criticize them, if you studied them to gain that knowledge?

And yet, through all of this, it is obvious you have chosen to go your own way, based on your knowledge and experience. I think Tao Yuanming would be smiling down from heaven on all of this, saying, "yes, it is also good"!

 

[JowGaWolf]

For me, when I get punched in the face I look upon it as my own personal failure. I would be hard pressed to call it a "cure" to believing in the value of my art.

Correct. It's not about the Value of the Martial Arts that you train. It just means that you got somethng wrong with the technique. The main errors that kung fu students make that I see are.

1. A technique looks like a punch but is a "grabbing technique" or hand control technique.

2. A technique looks like a combination but it's actually separate individual techniques that should not be done in combination. In my Jow Ga forms, I try to determine what's a combination and what's a single technique. Then I practice the form by putting pauses in between for individual techniques and for when a combination begins and ends. That way I can train the combination as a combination and the indiviual technique as just one technique. i don't know how other's do it, but my ability to do kung fu grew quickly once I was able to figure these two things out.

The only down side to this is that my forms don't look pretty which is fine for me. I'm not doing any Forms competition. I never have, so I don't have to worry about looking graceful. But I do still practice the forms as I was originally taught. I have 2 version of every form I know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I tried Punch -> Control hand where my hand is not clearing but is seeking control around the same area where I punched and it worked really good.

This is why when you punch, your control hand should be close to your punch hand. This way your control hand can reach to your opponent's arm faster (less distance to move). Since your control hand is close to your punching hand, you cannot rotate your body, your punch won't generate the maximum power, most of the time your punch may be just a fake punch (set up). Your real punch is the punch after your control hand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How is it possible you learned to criticize them, if you studied them to gain that knowledge?

People criticize Confucius all the time. There is nothing wrong about criticizing. People don't study Confucius won't have the knowledge to criticize him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is why when you punch, your control hand should be close to your punch hand. This way your control hand can reach to your opponent's arm faster (less distance to move). Since your control hand is close to your punching hand, you cannot rotate your body, your punch won't generate the maximum power, most of the time your punch may be just a fake punch (set up). Your real punch is the punch after your control hand.

And that's exactly how that Jow Ga technique I'm was talking about ends. Punch -> Control hand -> Heavy Punch

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And that's exactly how that Jow Ga technique I'm was talking about ends. Punch -> Control hand -> Heavy Punch

This is why I believe you should not let your opponent to grab on your wrist. When you try to deal with that wrist grabbing, your opponent's heavy hand is coming.

 

[Same Trick]

When you thought that, you should have felt a great sense of shame, and a desperation to find the truth. The question is not how things appeared to you, it is how they should have appeared to you, and you did not recognize this failure. I have noticed this a lot on the internet, people seem to think they are right but they forgot somehow, what it took to get to this point.

The general principle being that the form changed over time. First, in history, we know that the form was changed over time. Grasp Bird's Tail, obviously, is a derivative of Lazily Arranging Clothes. Therefore as an obvious point GBT was created as a derivative to more closely mirror the push hands sequence. This is a common feature in Chinese martial arts, teaching a two person form first by teaching a kind of frame that has to be learned before the contact sequence. In fact, this idea solves the whole thing. You can even go all the way back to Jiao Ti/Jiao Di (horn butting) and you will find the rudiments of these kinds of martial arts. In fact, most Chinese martial arts come out of the rudiments of this kind of practice.

It's hard to say more without rambling, but if you study the history of the art's development you may see the same process repeated. I think the story of how Yiquan was created is another great example of this process.

Let’s leave feeling shame and desperation for other endeavors, most are just martial arts hobbyists here.

But yes I still find your those two separate statements contradicting or something in that sense. It’s nothing about the origin of martial arts, it’s more about how you sometimes make statements on martial arts.

But thank you for trying to explain yourself, however now here in your explanation statement on the GBT sequence, are you saying that the Chen family already had the GBT sequence as a PH sequence before Yangfamily changed the “lazy coat thing” sequence into Grasp birds tail ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

2. A technique looks like a combination but it's actually separate individual techniques that should not be done in combination.

If the form creator could link 3 moves into a logic sequence, why would he link 3 moves into non-logical sequence?

When I walked on the beach, I liked to train 8 of my throws. One day I decided to combine 2 throws into 1 combo. This way, I only needed to drill 4 combos instead of 8 individual throws. When I combined 2 throws into a sequence, I would connect it into a logic order. If I could do that. The ancient form creator should be able to do that too.

 

[Same Trick]

"Can you do any of the things shown in the article ?

Often read posts and wonder if the authors have actually experienced or can perform what they write about.
When I asked about the 'primordial state' the OP referred to, Was curious about its practical application.

For example..."

A noted Wu style master, explains the relationship between the virtual field and body.

You should be able to see the video embedded. It shows the same type of demo some have asked about in the article
explained in a different way. Whether one agrees with it or not, he demos applications based on the theory.

Yi Chuan
Interesting enough we had a Yi Chuan guy stop by to visit my teacher...
He wondered about my teachers practice, and wanted to test it.

He was unable to apply force to my teacher's body, my teacher in his 80s at the time.
He did the same test on some of the other students...they immediately were bounced back.

Have met some Yi Chaun people in my time, reminded me of the way some of the people who practiced Guang Ping Tai Chi felt, interacting with them.

Of course not, the picture in the article is not realistic. As I wrote , in Yao Zhongxun linage such exaggerated demonstrations find no home. Wang Xiangzhai and his disciples probably turn in their graves.
what I wrote had nothing to do with such as seen in the article picture.
However, in the article the author make some good statements, just sad he display such exaggerated not truthful pictures.

One thing I’ve noticed too, is some schools of “Yiquan” mix Cantonese and Mandarin Pinyin when writing Yiquan - such as Yi-Chuan, it may seem a small thing, but there might be something telling of a bigger picture.

About the Yiquan guy who came to try your teacher sound not as a serious and true practitioner, those do sanda or wrestling and similar competitions if want to try themselves against other.

 

[windwalker099]

Of course not, the picture in the article is not realistic.

Don't know what "not realistic" means..
It's a way to allow others to feel what they are working on.
For the teacher it's a way of allowing those he was working with to feel what he was talking about.
For them it was real....

About the Yiquan guy who came to try your teacher sound not as a serious and true practitioner, those do sanda or wrestling and similar competitions if want to try themselves against other.

"serious and true practitioner "

You didn't know my teacher, nor the people who stopped by...to pay respects..
There is a difference between testing skill sets, and competitions.

Interesting, the serious ones do sanda, wrestling or other competitions.
Any one noted in competitions using Yiquan and winning ?

Wang Xiangzhai and his disciples probably turn in their graves.
what I wrote had nothing to do with such as seen in the article picture.
However, in the article the author make some good statements, just sad he display such exaggerated not truthful pictures.

its an internet thing.
As long as one never shows what they write about, its all good.

I like the teachers work.
Master Cheuk Fung has an interesting back ground.

"Master Fung: Yes, it took me more than twenty years to fully integrate my Hop Gar and Yi Chuan. Bit by bit I had to address each apparent contradiction in theory and method.

Eventually I realized that while each art had its own distinct flavor, they were both built with the same basic ingredients. Now I can explain Yi Chuan using Hop Gar theory and train Hop Gar mechanics with Yi Chuan exercises.

Today I don't even bother distinguishing which route or shape came from which method. I just teach them within the overall Yi Chuan categories without distracting students with fanciful names and mystical origins. Whatever the shape and whatever the method, as long as you stay within the perimeter of developing Hunyuan strength, you won't be too wrong."

He expressed some of the same thoughts as another noted Hop gar, teacher I knew..
Who also learned Guang Ping Tai Chi taiji...


I find myself not agreeing with both, on the ability to integrate Hop gar,
into their respective arts.

Something to consider

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like the teachers work.

What do you mean "I like the teacher's work?" If someone has great combat skill/ability, I will say that I like his combat skill/ability. The term "work" is a bit too abstract for me. I like the term "combat". It's used as part of my organization ACSCA. The 1st C is "combat".

What kind of "work" is the "work" that you are talking about?