Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Unfortunately, an awful lot of videos posted for CMA look very bad.
Tai Chi's Push Hands Law of Primal Unity
- Thread starter Appledog
- Start date
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Some things just don’t translate to video.
windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
The problem is you question the validity of the practice itself.
Any video I would show you like this one
would then become the subject of another discussion, I'm not interested in.
CMA in general has had a hard time over the years proving that what people practice can actually be used. Much of my time as a younger man was spent helping to disprove that with those I met...
I'm a little older now, understanding that while it was kinda fun, it was also pointless back in the day...
In talking to some of the noted Sifus we both knew, always found it kinda funny...
They would talk about "Qi" and then set limits on what people could do with it, suggesting that those who did other things were fake...
All the things they couldn't or didn't do...
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Can we honestly say that a student uses his teacher as a demo partner doesn't exist. I don't believe my teacher would let me to use him as a demo partner (I'm just different).
windwalker099
2nd Black Belt
Are we talking, teaching environment or public demonstration.
Most that I've met don't in public demos... some do.
With others, in teaching environments, it can be dangerous...
The Mantis teacher I had in Korea, Mr. Park, was like that, having used his art during the war...
Due to his experiences, sometimes he couldn't stop a reaction he might have,
if a person did something unexpected during a demo,,
Quite interesting training with him....
Park Chi Moon.
Shifu Park Chil Sung was born in 1930 in what is now North Korea.
He never mentioned his teacher's name..
We used to try to get him drunk, and ask him,,
he would laugh saying "i know what you'er trying to do"
Took some 20yrs later before I would find out who it was.
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It's the same as Taiji "turn around hammer, fetch arm". It's a general "switch hands" principle - right hand strike, left hand takeover opponent's defense, right hand strike again.
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This "switch hands" exists in the Taiji form.
- The 1st strike is a hammer fist,
- the 2nd takeover is a circular deflect,
- the 3rd punch is also a hammer fist.
When I learned the Taiji form, I always wondered when I can use this combo. The 1st hammer fist is slow. The 3rd hammer fist is also slow. I have no idea why the Taiji creator ever created his form this way.
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Same Trick
Purple Belt
Hunyuan is perfect harmony in/of the six directions and by so all directions and by so it steam from the true center.
Hunyuan force and awareness is omnipresent, in application any part of the body should be able express it, since its steam from true center its issued rather effortless.
The martial arts or all aspects of interacting is of mind/body unity, a skilled person can efficiently/effortlessly read such interactions to their advantage , psychology play a major part especially upon eye contact, the story Cui Ruibin recall about his teacher dwell into that.
Not only the eyes but one’s whole body, one’s posture, a move, work as vehicle of the mind, by this one can get a psychological upper hand depending how well balanced the mind/body is..
Same Trick
Purple Belt
Yes that’s true, with Yiquan that got a craze in the 90’s gave almost overnight birth to a lot of “teachers”, even well established teachers of TJQ, BGZ and so on suddenly began to teach “Yiquan”
Same Trick
Purple Belt
So I just noticed this in the thread, both statements by the starter of this thread but in different posts
How do they match ?
“No, the GBT sequence was created after the push hands sequence was created.”
“Yes, you are right .Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.”
How do they match ?
“No, the GBT sequence was created after the push hands sequence was created.”
“Yes, you are right .Chen Ziming writes that people who learn push hands early will never be able to gain skill in Taijiquan.”
OP
OP
Appledog
Green Belt
Help me to answer your question; what don't you understand, that they do not match?
Same Trick
Purple Belt
First statement seem to say the solo form was created/ modeled from specific push-hands exercises, indicating PH was the original TJQ ?
Then the second statement seem to say that in order to learn TJQ correctly one should first for a longer period of time do solo form practice, and only then may one take up PH correctly ?
I just thought your two statements somehow contradicted.
I have my doubts that it's a combination. I think they are separate techniques. I've found that when a combination doesn't make sense, then it's usually because it's not a combination.
The 1st strike is a hammer fist (technique is independent)
The 2nd strike is a circular deflect (technique is independent.)
The 3rd strike is a hammer fist (technique is independent)
Any extended hammer fist technique is going to follow one or more of these "Rules"
1. Done at a distance so that the force is at the end of fist.
2. Done when the opponent is least likely to defend against it.
3. Done quickly.
My guess is that this combination is popular in CMA Forms: Punch -> Clear arm
This is not a real combination. Punch is one technique. The clear arm is for whenever your arm is in that position and at risk then clear arm. 2 separate things that were put together and many assume that someone is stopping or grabbing the strike.
My opinion on Punch ->Clear arm combination is that it doesn't exist.
OP
OP
Appledog
Green Belt
When you thought that, you should have felt a great sense of shame, and a desperation to find the truth. The question is not how things appeared to you, it is how they should have appeared to you, and you did not recognize this failure. I have noticed this a lot on the internet, people seem to think they are right but they forgot somehow, what it took to get to this point.
The general principle being that the form changed over time. First, in history, we know that the form was changed over time. Grasp Bird's Tail, obviously, is a derivative of Lazily Arranging Clothes. Therefore as an obvious point GBT was created as a derivative to more closely mirror the push hands sequence. This is a common feature in Chinese martial arts, teaching a two person form first by teaching a kind of frame that has to be learned before the contact sequence. In fact, this idea solves the whole thing. You can even go all the way back to Jiao Ti/Jiao Di (horn butting) and you will find the rudiments of these kinds of martial arts. In fact, most Chinese martial arts come out of the rudiments of this kind of practice.
It's hard to say more without rambling, but if you study the history of the art's development you may see the same process repeated. I think the story of how Yiquan was created is another great example of this process.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I really have no horse in this race but from my point of view there needs to be a correction made here, but then this may just be semantics
The question is not how things appeared to you, it is how are, and learning to know the difference.
@Kung Fu Wang
This is an example of Application coming from Form. This is common in Kung Fu. People have the form and try to figure the application, but do not try the application in sparring. It's better to be introduced to the application first so that the form has some context. But most people only care about form and not application.
This is an example of Application coming from Form. This is common in Kung Fu. People have the form and try to figure the application, but do not try the application in sparring. It's better to be introduced to the application first so that the form has some context. But most people only care about form and not application.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Shame? Really? Remind me to humble myself before any query.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
He isn’t reaching to the bottom, he isn’t likely to find any floating needles. He evidently had no problem finding dinner.
I don't even like the word humble. It is often abused.
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