Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years

[Earl Weiss]

[QUOTE="S
Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .[/QUOTE]


Except - They did. You are wrong.

 

[DaveB]

Taekwondo isn't from Karate. Everyone in the first generation of Taekwondo learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Taekwondo originating from Shotokan Karate is a misconception from how some 1st generation Taekwondo people called it Toudi/Tangsu. However, their teacher Yoon called it Gwonbub. Korean had those Gwonbub pictures already 300 years ago. No, all those South Korean Tangsu/Toudi Kwans came from Gwonbub Gwan/gym. Go 1 step further in research. Read my links. Before the name Taekwondo, names Tangsu/Toudi was used. That's from linguistic influence by Japanese occupation. Before that, Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I provided links for my quotes. Korean Gwonbub existed not just 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji but also in 1946 & before in the early 20th century. There are records of Gwonbub Gwan/Gym before Taekwondo was called Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence just like Taekyun was also called Jiujitsu, Judo (Yudo) in a newspaper. The rotation punch, knife hand stance, front kick, blocking kick all look very Taekwondo. Calling Taekwondo Gwonbub in 1946 predates calling it Tangsu, Toudi. Fact. I uploaded links for my references, which are all reputable references. Many my links are in Korean but there should be many translators. Interpreting evidences is essential for correct conclusion. My references include a Taekwondo master's book on gym oriented Taekwondo history. Here's a proof that Taekyun was called Judo (Yudo), Jiujitsu. https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg It's the same logic that Taekwondo was also called Tangsu/Toudi in the middle 20th century. In the early 20th century, it was called Gwonbub. Kihapsul, Kiaijutsu, Karate Tameshiwari's Origin/Source - Album on Imgur & Dukgi Song Kyulyun Taekyun Yetbub Sample Photos - Album on Imgur Bear Sports Topics | Facebook Here are summaries of more topics on Korean sports which I had to fight some people pushing bullshits without any reputable sources referencing. All my sources are all reputable & well known to scholars & other people experienced in such fields. Translate.

Still no.

 

[Steven Lee]

Older references with inherited knowledge are more credible than recent references with imagination or agenda (bending logic to meet goals). Also, what's important is whether the sources are academically reputable. That being said, the way I conclude Taekwondo's origin is that it's a mix of Korean Gwonbub & Karate. But all the important techniques including rotation punch already existed in Gwonbub. Karate's influence is pretty much the Kata culture in Taekwondo. There were more Karate gyms than Gwonbub gym in 1946, so Taekwondo is mostly of Karate influences, but Gwonbub still made the connection to Taekwondo; the people who learned Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub differentiate it from Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon must have learned Gwonbub besides any Kung Fu or Karate training to teach Gwonbub. Also, Byungin Yoon didn't have Karate training; he only taught Karate in Japan with Gwonbub knowledge. In any case, Taekwondo is tainted for me. I'm gonna cherish other Korean sports.

 

[pdg]

Taekwondo is tainted for me. I'm gonna cherish other Korean sports.

And right here is from whence the desperation for purity stems.

You absolutely wanted to be able to prove (irrespective of any truth) that taekwondo was pure in it's Korean heritage.

Now that you can see that you can't bend the truth for your own ends, you reject it entirely because "it's tainted".

 

[Gnarlie]

Steven Lee, do you practice Taekwondo?

Have you practiced Karate?

Because trying to compare / contrast them realistically would require you to do so.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Earl Weiss]

In any case, Taekwondo is tainted for me. I'm gonna cherish other Korean sports.

A. Tainted because it traces it's roots back thru Japan - Okinawa - China?
B. What other "Korean Sports" do you refer to?

Baseball can likely trace it's roots to cricket. I don't consider it tainted .

 

[andyjeffries]

I would like to ask the OP if he trains martial arts if so what and to what standard?

On his Reddit posts on the same topic (where you can choose to display any "flair" you like, unlike here where it's related to posting quantity) he choose to put "Purple belt". That may not be his official rank, but it's relevant information.

 

[andyjeffries]

Older references with inherited knowledge are more credible than recent references with imagination or agenda (bending logic to meet goals). Also, what's important is whether the sources are academically reputable. That being said, the way I conclude Taekwondo's origin is that it's a mix of Korean Gwonbub & Karate. But all the important techniques including rotation punch already existed in Gwonbub. Karate's influence is pretty much the Kata culture in Taekwondo. There were more Karate gyms than Gwonbub gym in 1946, so Taekwondo is mostly of Karate influences, but Gwonbub still made the connection to Taekwondo; the people who learned Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub differentiate it from Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon must have learned Gwonbub besides any Kung Fu or Karate training to teach Gwonbub.

Just remember, Kwonbeop is also practiced in China as Quanfa and Japan as Kenpo/Kempo. This isn't a purely Korean art.

Also, Byungin Yoon didn't have Karate training; he only taught Karate in Japan with Gwonbub knowledge.

I disagree with this last part. GM Yoon, Byung-in learnt Quanfa in Manchuria as a child. He then went to Japan and learned, then graded upto 5th Dan in Karate. He was the Karate Team Captain at Nihon University, Japan. This is from the "Modern History of Taekwondo" book (pages 9 and 10 if you have it - I can share a scan of the pages if you don't).

So Grandmasters Kang, Won-sik and Lee, Kyeong-myong, after doing all the research they can for a published book, disagree with your point about GM Yoon never having any Karate training.

 

[Tez3]

On his Reddit posts on the same topic (where you can choose to display any "flair" you like, unlike here where it's related to posting quantity) he choose to put "Purple belt". That may not be his official rank, but it's relevant information.

I may be wrong but I don't think there's 'purple' belt in Korean styles? there is in Japanese styles though.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I may be wrong but I don't think there's 'purple' belt in Korean styles? there is in Japanese styles though.

There is not in any "traditonal" Korean art. But there are plenty of orgs that teach Korean arts that have made up their own belt system. I seem to recall at least one that has a camo rank.

 

[andyjeffries]

There is not in any "traditonal" Korean art. But there are plenty of orgs that teach Korean arts that have made up their own belt system. I seem to recall at least one that has a camo rank.

And the Kukkiwon has explicitly stated they don't care what coloured belts dojangs use, nor even how many Geup ranks they use. A friend in Korea only uses 8 Geup ranks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

And the Kukkiwon has explicitly stated they don't care what coloured belts dojangs use, nor even how many Geup ranks they use. A friend in Korea only uses 8 Geup ranks.

That's certainly reasonable enough. It's not like rank has any real meaning outside the particular school that issued it.

 

[JR 137]

That's a very long post that restates the same points over and over.

Every post is the same points over and over again. Here and the other thread.

If you say it enough times, it has to come true.

 

[JR 137]

My sources are reputable in all topics whatever you pretend to be the truth. My facts should be the official facts in all topics.

I just need objective honest people & all the respectable scholars in the world siding with me. I don't have to try hard persuading non-scholars or dishonest people in any topic.

This has to be best post I’ve read in quite some time.

We all know MY facts ARE the official facts in all topics. The sooner you accept it, the sooner you’ll truly become a scholar.

Edit: how do I use the above quote as my signature? I’ll cite my source

 

[JR 137]

My sources are reputable respectable sources in any topic including Subak, Taekwondo's origin, Breaking's origin (& history), Korean street fighting games, whatever topic. Also, most of the references I quote are old references, which means greater credibility. Taekwondo is from YMCA Gwonbub Club, not from Karate. Karate copied Korea's 300 years old Gwonbub moves; Karate also copied Breaking/Tameshiwari which was never from martial art but performance art power circus self-created by trial & error (& power motion knowhow from Korean wrestling). I have reputable data, records on any topic; the question should be only whether my references are reputable or not.

Yup, they’re older sources, so they’re more credible. Because, you know, people from previous generations never lied.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Due to thread drift, the posts regarding Christopher Columbus have been split into a different thread: Christopher Colombus (Split from Taekwondo isn't from Karate...thread)

William H
@kempodisciple
MartialTalk Moderator

 

[punisher73]

From the research I have come across, the korean martial arts we have today are NOT the ancient korean martial arts practiced in the past. This is where the crux of the matter lies. To use an example, we know the Greeks had a martial art called "Pankration" and we have pictures and documentation of it. BUT, there is no martial tradition that taught the art that was passed on into modern times. Jim Arvantis, "re-created" the martial art using modern methods and based it on the ancient documentation.

This is what happened in Korea. There were ancient martial traditions, but they were not passed down as whole arts into the modern times. Korea was VERY victimized by the Japanese occupation and wanted to eliminate that influence from their art. The Koreans took their karate training (some did have kung fu training) and tried to re-create their ancient arts. This is why TKD started to use emphasis on all the high kicks and varieties, it was tying it back to the older sport and it's own ancient cultural ties.

No one should be arguing that Korea didn't have its own martial arts. But, it should be argued that none of those arts were passed down as whole methods to what we have now. It's like the older argument that Karate didn't' come from kung fu because the Japanese didn't want to admit that their art was Chinese in nature.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Interesting I got a dislike on my post #101

>>>QUOTE="S
Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .[/QUOTE]


Except - They did. You are wrong.<<<<<


from someone who does not seem to be a participant in this thread.

 

[Flying Crane]

Interesting I got a dislike on my post #101

>>>QUOTE="S
Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .


Except - They did. You are wrong.<<<<<


from someone who does not seem to be a participant in this thread.

I’ve on occasion given a dislike rating to a post by accident, when I was scrolling through the thread in my phone. My thumb hit the button on the screen and I didn’t even realize I had done it until the poster asked me what I disagreed with.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I’ve on occasion given a dislike rating to a post by accident, when I was scrolling through the thread in my phone. My thumb hit the button on the screen and I didn’t even realize I had done it until the poster asked me what I disagreed with.

Well then to Elder 999 what did you dislike bout my post #101?

>>[QUOTE="S
Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. .[/QUOTE]


Except - They did. You are wrong.<<<<<