You just pointed out that Gwonbub also looks like Karate. So, the similarities you pointed out to say they had to have come from Gwonbub could also have come from Karate.
Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years
- Thread starter Steven Lee
- Start date
CB Jones
Senior Master
Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe:
Koreans were prohibited by the Japanese government to train in martial arts in 1870 that lasted in to the 1920s.
Karate originated in Okinawa and taken to Japan.
And Gwonbub could have originated from Okinawaan karate as well but that link was lost during the ban?
Steven Lee
Blue Belt
Something could have come from either Gwonbub or Karate? Gwonbub is older, & Byungin Yoon used that name for teaching.
No, Gwonbub was never lost. It was taught in the Korean military even until the early 20th century. Korean military was trained in its martial art textbook Muyedobotongji including Gwonbub.
No, Gwonbub's history recorded it came from Subak (means Clap, but the sport had straight slaps & punches anyway), with Chinese Kung Fu Taizu 32 Palm Way influence. Also, Japanese admit that Toudi & Karate are different, "simpler". It's weird for sports to look "coincidentally" the same. So, Karate probably copied Korean Gwonbub since it's older than 1922's Funakoshi Karate by 200 years. I don't think Korean Gwonbub is from Okinawan Toudi. There's no such records at all in Korea. Also, how did Okinawan Toudi "really" look like? No visual records, right?
No, Gwonbub was never lost. It was taught in the Korean military even until the early 20th century. Korean military was trained in its martial art textbook Muyedobotongji including Gwonbub.
No, Gwonbub's history recorded it came from Subak (means Clap, but the sport had straight slaps & punches anyway), with Chinese Kung Fu Taizu 32 Palm Way influence. Also, Japanese admit that Toudi & Karate are different, "simpler". It's weird for sports to look "coincidentally" the same. So, Karate probably copied Korean Gwonbub since it's older than 1922's Funakoshi Karate by 200 years. I don't think Korean Gwonbub is from Okinawan Toudi. There's no such records at all in Korea. Also, how did Okinawan Toudi "really" look like? No visual records, right?
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CB Jones
Senior Master
Funakoshi studied and brought karate from Okinawa not Korea.
Steven Lee
Blue Belt
No, that's what he said, not what he did. Does it seem likely though? Pictures don't look the same coincidentally (which is why I was hung up on Taekwondo-Gwonbub link). This is just a side topic. I already declared that Taekwondo is mostly Karate influence & that I will focus on other Korean traditional sports (like Taekyun-Yetbub, Nalparam, Subak, Kyuksul, Breaking, etc many historical sports) to value the cultural wealth of Korea. Also, Funakoshi admitted that Okinawan Toudi & Karate are different, right? Simpler or whatever?
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CB Jones
Senior Master
Well he was born and raised in Okinawa....so it would be likely that what he brought to Japan was based from Okinanwaan style karate.
Yeah, but they also brought okinawa brought karate from china. It's all a circle (or line in this case I guess).
Just out of curiosity. Is it that important to know where the original roots of TKD came from? When I look at Traditional Korean marital arts, they tend to have a different flow than TKD. I've noticed this with many martial arts. It is like each system has a unique concept of movement that is adopted by the area (country, region, village) and I'm thinking if you view that concept of movement, then you can trace it back to it's influences. TKD does not move like Traditional Korean Martial arts. It's movement is more like a blend between Korean and Japanese martial arts.
If I had to describe TKD, then I would say that it took the punching from Japan and Kicking from Native Korean Martial arts which seem to favor more of the soft power than the hard power that is common in Japanese Martial arts.
If I had to describe TKD, then I would say that it took the punching from Japan and Kicking from Native Korean Martial arts which seem to favor more of the soft power than the hard power that is common in Japanese Martial arts.
Steven Lee
Blue Belt
The topic of Taekwondo, Gwonbub, Karate link is done. Taekwondo is mostly Karate. Also, I'm limited to computer time due to my living conditions, can't commit to this place.
Yes, truth matters in any topic, especially if I (or my background Korea) get harms, losses, profits in any way from it. I'm done here.
Korean martial arts don't favor "soft power". You made it up. Historically, Korea has many historical data hitting hard, punching hard, kicking hard. Taekyun does soft contact sparring, but Taekyun-Yetbub hits hard (& it punches and stuff) for real. Kyuksul which likely comes from Korean Subak also is known for hard power. Kiaijutsu (Korean Kihapsul/Charyuk) also uses hard power in Breaking/Tameshiwari (not from martial art but self-created from power circus, which Mas Oyama introduced to Karate). There are also many Subak records hitting hard. What Japanese martial art favors hard power? Karate? Karate doesn't hit the same way as its Tameshiwari/Breaking which is from Kiaijutsu including the hitting technique. Judo? Judo throws hard, but Korean wrestling Ssireum is also like that, except more limited in grips.
Yes, truth matters in any topic, especially if I (or my background Korea) get harms, losses, profits in any way from it. I'm done here.
Korean martial arts don't favor "soft power". You made it up. Historically, Korea has many historical data hitting hard, punching hard, kicking hard. Taekyun does soft contact sparring, but Taekyun-Yetbub hits hard (& it punches and stuff) for real. Kyuksul which likely comes from Korean Subak also is known for hard power. Kiaijutsu (Korean Kihapsul/Charyuk) also uses hard power in Breaking/Tameshiwari (not from martial art but self-created from power circus, which Mas Oyama introduced to Karate). There are also many Subak records hitting hard. What Japanese martial art favors hard power? Karate? Karate doesn't hit the same way as its Tameshiwari/Breaking which is from Kiaijutsu including the hitting technique. Judo? Judo throws hard, but Korean wrestling Ssireum is also like that, except more limited in grips.
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CB Jones
Senior Master
Its definitely a blend of styles.
There are some over laps, but each country had their own national concept of fighting.and you can see those fighting concepts by examining the movement of the fighting and not so much the techniques, because the techniques overlap big time from martial arts to martial arts. National fighting concepts is no different than National governance concepts that are embraced by the citizens.
I don't want to sound too American and too insensitive, but I doubt the harm, losses, losses in profit or any other perceived loss would be rectified by who did what first. TKD is one of the most profitable martial arts systems out there and the majority of those who practice it aren't even interested in actually being able to fight and destroy their enemy.
I find it difficult that any loss that you are experiencing is the result of knowing the truth about the origin of TKD. That is unless you are a tour guide who tells tourist about the origins of TKD. I have always found that the Truth only matters when things are clear. Until then that point the truth is a fuzzy thing with different perspective. Sort of like science. The science community is just a bunch of scientist who think they know what is going on with various theories on what the truth is. Then one day someone is able to get to the truth, which usually mean there were a lot of other scientists who had incorrect theories. Martial arts is like that. The people who could have really shined more accurate information have been dead for centuries and unfortunately they weren't good at documenting martial arts history.
They were probably like the rest of us. Life gets in the way and other priorities take over.
And the good news is that there's nothing wrong with a good blend.
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Now you're claiming that the Korean military (which didn't exist during the Japanese occupation) was training with spears on horseback up through the liberation, but all record of this was erased?
Ah, I get it. So Gichin Funakosi was also a part of the Great Conspiracy?
Yes. You finally got it correct. Taekwondo was almost wholly based on Karate, primarily Shotokan.
Yes. It is. It's good that you've finally come to realize this.
Soft and hard power has nothing to do with how hard someone hits or kicks another pers. Soft power and hard power are just fighting concepts that describe how one receives attacks and send attacks. These are common martial arts techniques. But I'll take the credit for creating the concepts of Soft and Hard Power. if you want to give it to me.
That's awesome. I just found out today that I invented the concept of Soft and Hard Power. I can't wait to tell Hanzou and Kung Fu Wang that their teachers lied to them. Guess I'll have to go to China and give them the bad news as well.
_Simon_
Senior Master
Yeah I thought so, and no worries you're totally welcome by the way! And that's really cool to know, yeah you'd better do that, for the sake of historical accuracy :S
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Out of interest, given that you state Taekwondo's earliest gyms are effectively Changmookwan (GM Yoon, Byung-in founded) and you claim that GM Yoon taught solely Kwonbeop and all of Taekwondo comes from this root - have you checked this with the current president of Changmookwan?
I interviewed him in July of last year (coming to my Youtube channel when I can finish the translation) and he made no such claims.
If you like I can ask him (through his son), specific questions about this early period? I'm a Changmookwan 7th Dan and a regional CMK manager for the UK.
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