Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years

[pdg]

Nope. Not probably. IS. Because that's what the founders were taught.



Not according to YOON, Byung In. According to him, he studied Kung Fu and Shotokan. And he didn't claim to have taught ANY of the founders.



According to him, he did. Are you saying he lied about his training?



All of them that I listed.



Actually, he did.
His primary training was in Kung Fu, and his school was primarily based on this (similar to the Moo Duk Kwan).

LIES!!! ALL LIES!!!!

You're only saying all that support your agenda.

I don't know what your agenda might be - probably the same as mine - but it obviously needs supporting with lies.

Or you're mistaken.

 

[Steven Lee]

Show me the speech references, which my source apparently didn't show. When did Byungin Yoon say such thing?

Byungin Yoon probably also learned Kung Fu, but he still learned Gwonbub to teach Gwonbub. (& he was also seen striking tree, which was a traditional Korean exercise.) Many Korean Gwans/Gyms learned from Byungin Yoon. I quoted Cheolheui Park (Gangdeokwon).

Because of Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub lineage Gwans/Gyms (I quoted so many earlier Gwans/Gyms in his lineage), Taekwondo has Korean Gwonbub lineage. If there's any actual Karate gym not in Byungin Yoon's lineage who contributed to the creation of Taekwondo, at the worst case scenario, Taekwondo comes from Korean Gwonbub with exposure to Karate culture like Kata. In any case, Byungin Yoon's 1946's Gwonbub is the center of Taekwondo.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not talking specifically you. I just get a lot of such bullshits often instead of carefully sorting out evidences.

Stop swearing. It violates the TOS here.
There's no need to sort evidence, when the record is relatively clear about what training the founders had. Some details may be open for debate (i.e. LEE Won Kuk claimed that HWANG, Kee trained under him, while HWANG, Kee denied it). But that most were trained in Shotokan is not in the least subject to debate. Well, unless you're buying into some conspiracy nonsense, claiming they all lied.

I don't have an agenda. I just want all facts to be out there & recognized academically.

The facts are recognized. But not by you.

Byungin Yoon probably also learned Kung Fu,

It's cute that you think you know more about his training than he did. It really is.

Many Korean Gwans/Gyms learned from Byungin Yoon.

He never made that claim. The other founders never claimed to have trained under him.

I know.... it's all part of the Grand Conspiracy, right?

I quoted Cheolheui Park (Gangdeokwon).

Bluntly, who cares? I never heard of a Gangdeokwon, nor does google show anything. Neither of us knows Cheolheui Park either.

 

[pdg]

Let's just for a minute consider that all this might be correct.

And?

I know a couple of people who are adamant that tkd is directly derived from taekkyeon and has been almost unchanged for 3,000 years.

They still train the same stuff I do.

 

[Steven Lee]

Show me the actual references who said what instead of some people deciding who was taught what. Byungin Yoon taught Gwonbub to Karate, he wasn't taught Karate before becoming a Karate teacher in Japan.

"박철희는 1933년 생으로 YMCA권법부에서 권법을 수련하였으며, 6․25 이후에는 강덕원을 창설하였다. 육군사관학교 태권도 교관, 경무대 무도 사범, 대한태수도협회 이사 등을 역임했다."


"해방 후 선생은 경성농업학교에서 체육교사로 재직하면서 당신이 배운 무예를 학생들에게 가르쳤습니다. 이후 직장을 경동중학교로 옮기셨는데, 이 당시 세계태권도연맹 회장을 맡아 태권도를 세계화시키고 올림픽 종목으로 채택되게 만드는데 혁혁한 공을 세운 김운용(金雲龍) 씨도 이 학교에서 권법을 배웠다고 합니다."

"After Korea was liberated, Master (Yoon) was a gym teacher in Gyungsung Agriculture school, taught his martial art. Later, he moved to Gyungdong Middle School. Even Woonyong Kim who was the WTF Taekwondo president learned Gwonbub in that school". YMCA Gwonbub Club was old, built in 1946. Gangdeokwon was also an old Gwonbub school started right after the Korean war. "Cheolheui Park was born in 1933. Trained Gwonbub in YMCA Gwonbub club. After the Korean war, started Gangdeokwon. He was the Taekwondo teacher in Military Army School, Gyungmudae Martial Art teacher, Daehan Taesudo Federation Secretary."

 

[Steven Lee]

Taekyun (wrestling with kicking) & Yetbub (Korean street fighting game) is a civilian version. Taekwondo was Gwonbub, the military art version that existed since 300 years ago. (Has punch. Spars by kicking.) Mas Oyama also mentioned Chosun-Gwonbub in his Karate book.

I can't really commit much here due to my living situations. I hope I showed much objective evidences, enough to persuade what the truth is for objective people.

 

[Gnarlie]

Taekyun (wrestling with kicking) & Yetbub (Korean street fighting game) is a civilian version. Taekwondo was Gwonbub, the military art version that existed since 300 years ago. (Has punch. Spars by kicking.) Mas Oyama also mentioned Chosun-Gwonbub in his Karate book.

I can't really commit much here due to my living situations. I hope I showed much objective evidences, enough to persuade what the truth is for objective people.

If you'd care to address my questions and observations from post #8, it might help your case. Just stating what you have found and not addressing problems with it detracts from the credibility of your argument. If you want to be taken seriously, that might not the best way to go.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's a very long post that restates the same points over and over.

Good thing I didn't read it lol. Discussions like this are draining to me and I never gain anything from them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One of theses guys is probably the real Hanzou.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My sources are reputable respectable sources in any topic including Subak, Taekwondo's origin, Breaking's origin (& history), Korean street fighting games, whatever topic. Also, most of the references I quote are old references, which means greater credibility. Taekwondo is from YMCA Gwonbub Club, not from Karate. Karate copied Korea's 300 years old Gwonbub moves; Karate also copied Breaking/Tameshiwari which was never from martial art but performance art power circus self-created by trial & error (& power motion knowhow from Korean wrestling). I have reputable data, records on any topic; the question should be only whether my references are reputable or not.

Older does not, in any way, mean more credible.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Older does not, in any way, mean more credible.

If it does, I'm pretty darn credible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Truth is important to fight for, especially if it has to do with profiting or damaging my label, background. I don't want any injustice to the wealth, culture, history, reputation of Korea (or me). I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources, then siding with the truth.

Yeah, people who can read Korean will corroborate me forever in history, from now to the end of the time. My translations are good. Also, the only issue should be evaluating logic, translation, sources, not your wish or derision. I don't want to nor have to give up anything mine or Korea's, especially if it is about the truth in any topic.

I wish our native Korean speakers were active. They’d enjoy this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it does, I'm pretty darn credible.

Just proves my point.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I wish our native Korean speakers were active. They’d enjoy this.

On the very off chance that he receives email alerts and sees this...paging @KangTsai

 

[CB Jones]

I wonder if the claim "Chung Do Kwan - LEE, Won Kuk - Shotokan", "Song Moo Kwan - RO, Byung Jik - Shotokan", "Moo Duk Kwan - HWANG, Kee - Tai Chi and Kung Fu", "Ji Do Kwan - CHUN, Sang Sup - Kodokan Judo", "Chang Moo Kwan - YOON, Byung In - Kung Fu and Shotokan" is true. Also, how old are those? After YMCA Gwonbub Club? According to my sources, the earlier Taekwondo people learned from Byungin Yoon. There should be testimonies & paperwork. Also, if some of them did say they trained Karate (Tangsu/Toudi), that's probably from mistaking Gwonbub to be Karate when it is actually a traditional Korean Gwonbub. Also, even if some of them did learn Karate, that doesn't mean they didn't learn Gwonbub to teach Korean Gwonbub. My source says Taekwondo's earlier era comes from Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub. They could have taken swimming lessons as well, but it doesn't count towards Taekwondo. Which Taekwondo founder said they learned specifically Karate?

Chung Do Kwan - founded by Lee Won Kuk who in 1926 went to high school and college in Tokyo and trained in Shotokan by Gichin and Gigo Funakoshi. He would become a 4th degree BB in Shotokan. In 1944, He was granted permission by the Japanese Governor and General to begin teaching Karate in Seoul.

Song Moo Kwan - Founded in 1946 by Ro Byung Jick, who had studied karate under Gichin Funakoshi along with Chung Do Kwan founder Lee Won Kuk in Japan.

Moo Duk Kwan - Founded in 1945 by Hwang Kee trained combined chinese kung fu and japanese karate

Ji Do Kwan - Founded in 1946 by Chun Sang Sup who had studied Shotokan karate with Gichin Funakoshi in Japan

Chang Moo Kwan - Founded in 1946 by Yoon Byung-in and taught in YMCA. He was trained in Kung Fu and Shudokan. He would disappear to North Korea in 1950 for the Korean war and the Chang Moo Kwan was run by Student Lee Nam Suk.


So the other 4 kwans were teaching before or around the same time as Yoon Byung-in founded his YMCA Gwonbub club. He did not teach them.

 

[Steven Lee]

The 300 years old Korean Gwonbub pictures that I showed look like today's Taekwondo & Karate. Byungin Yoon taught a martial art called Gwonbub in Korea, which became a huge part of new Taekwondo. That suffices as proof cause the sport name is the same & the contents are the same. If there was any Karate school who contributed to the creation of Taekwondo, it is merely Kata culture being adopted by Taekwondo. Karate didn't invent nor have anything Korean Gwonbub already didn't have for the last 300 years. All the important Taekwondo techniques including rotation punching already existed in Korean Gwonbub, which Japan probably copied in creating Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon doesn't have lineage to Karate; he learned Gwonbub to teach the sport named Gwonbub.

 

[Steven Lee]

Ah, thanks for that update. It seems that some Karate schools did participate in Taekwondo creation. Still, the main factor is Gwonbub. That's what I wanted to focus on. Karate schools participating in Taekwondo creation contributed nothing that Korean Gwonbub already didn't have. Also, I'm against declaring Byungin Yoon was trained in Shotokan Karate. When Byungin Yoon was in Japan, he taught Gwonbub to Karate as a Karate teacher. He wasn't taught Karate before that. He was already trained in Gwonbub (hence, teaching Gwonbub) before any contact with Karate & Kung Fu.

 

[CB Jones]

The 300 years old Korean Gwonbub pictures that I showed look like today's Taekwondo & Karate. Byungin Yoon taught a martial art called Gwonbub in Korea, which became a huge part of new Taekwondo. That suffices as proof cause the sport name is the same & the contents are the same. If there was any Karate school who contributed to the creation of Taekwondo, it is merely Kata culture being adopted by Taekwondo. Karate didn't invent nor have anything Korean Gwonbub already didn't have for the last 300 years. All the important Taekwondo techniques including rotation punching already existed in Korean Gwonbub, which Japan probably copied in creating Karate. Also, Byungin Yoon doesn't have lineage to Karate; he learned Gwonbub to teach the sport named Gwonbub.

Byungin Yoon only spent 4 years teaching in South Korea....and due to that probably had a very small part in creating taekwondo due to living in North Korea.

 

[Steven Lee]

Still, his school carried out his techniques including to WTF Taekwondo president & Taesudo Secretary. I admit Byungin Yoon's participation to Taekwondo is not as big as I hoped. I think I'll focus mostly on names like Taekyun, Yetbub (street fighting games, Sibak, Baksi, Nanjangbaksi, Pyunssaum), Nalparam, Kyuksul (originally started with boxing-like rule), Subak (had straight slap & punch in it), Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (the source of Breaking/Tameshiwari) for valuing Korea's cultural wealth purpose. Still, Korean Gwonbub made a connection to Taekwondo however little that connection may be. Also, Japanese Karate looks very fishy with the resemblance to Korean Gwonbub. I'm done with Taekwondo-Karate link topic then. Taekwondo indeed has mostly Karate influence. But Gwonbub still made a connection to Taekwondo. & Korea has had many other traditional fighting sports & power sports.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On the very off chance that he receives email alerts and sees this...paging @KangTsai

Thanks, I was on my phone and couldn't get it to autofill, so wasn't sure I was typing his username right.