tae-kwon-do vs wing chun in non-sport combat?

[Jake104]

I was referring to your ridiculous statement that all sparring does is get you better at sparring resisting opponents. People on the street will resist you, if you have experience with resistance training you'll be better prepared.

Please link a study that proves 90% of the time a sucker punch will come. Your experience differs from mine it's no more valid. I think you've gotten your numbers from the Gracie book of fight statistics "200% of fights go to the ground!". I'd believe a Gracie over you however.

I never said that? What I said was

" Ummm.. So the art is more important than the artist? Let's use your boxing vs WC example. What if both arts train using the same methods? Like against resisting opponents? Like sparring in all ranges? That's how I train. I don't mind eating shots. I have sparred boxers. So is boxing just better?

Maybe? Maybe not? Depends on who's using it! Same goes for Wing Chun!

 

[drop bear]

I never said that? What I said was

" Ummm.. So the art is more important than the artist? Let's use your boxing vs WC example. What if both arts train using the same methods? Like against resisting opponents? Like sparring in all ranges? That's how I train. I don't mind eating shots. I have sparred boxers. So is boxing just better?

Maybe? Maybe not? Depends on who's using it! Same goes for Wing Chun?

when we compare arts we generally try to imagine an identical person doing both.

Some people will start with more natural ability. But that does not mean the training they do is not affecting them.

 

[Jake104]

I was referring to your ridiculous statement that all sparring does is get you better at sparring resisting opponents. People on the street will resist you, if you have experience with resistance training you'll be better prepared.

Please link a study that proves 90% of the time a sucker punch will come. Your experience differs from mine it's no more valid. I think you've gotten your numbers from the Gracie book of fight statistics "200% of fights go to the ground!". I'd believe a Gracie over you however.

No link sorry! It was an independent study. Only one copy that had to be destroyed for national security reasons.

Don't believe me. I'm just some schmuck on the internet..Believe in yourself!

 

[Jake104]

when we compare arts we generally try to imagine an identical person doing both.

Some people will start with more natural ability. But that does not mean the training they do is not affecting them.

I agreed twice. Now and on your post.Double whammy!

 

[Mephisto]

I never said that? What I said was

" Ummm.. So the art is more important than the artist? Let's use your boxing vs WC example. What if both arts train using the same methods? Like against resisting opponents? Like sparring in all ranges? That's how I train. I don't mind eating shots. I have sparred boxers. So is boxing just better?

Maybe? Maybe not? Depends on who's using it! Same goes for Wing Chun!

Judging from the available evidence is say boxing is just better if fighting ability is your goal. It's difficult to find video of two wc guys sparring with a significant degree of resistance. Often when they do it looks less like wc and more like sloppy boxing. Not to mention i think that if wc offered a solid striking foundation we'd see wc practitioners in MMA. I'm not saying there's no good wc anywhere I'm just saying that comparing the average student a boxer will be better prepared for a fight. We are starting to see some examples of wc in MMA but it also seems pretty modified, but I'd like to see more in the future. Wc sounds good in theory, it's a simple direct approach. We just need the wc fighters to get more interested in applying their craft to fighting.

 

[Vajramusti]

Judging from the available evidence is say boxing is just better if fighting ability is your goal. It's difficult to find video of two wc guys sparring with a significant degree of resistance. ---------------------
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A problem with making statements like the above- is the assumption "available evidence" is often associated
with videos and Youtube. Lots of real fights or serious wing chun sparring is not filmed. Old martial arts were and are for self development rather than show. Not taking anything away from boxing specially for the young.
It is not easy to increase boxing sklls after the age of 30. Also boxing power depends a great deal on people of the same weights. Mayweather is not likely to knock out ex champ Lewis or take a punch from Lewis.

 

[Mephisto]

Self development is a pretty broad term that doesn't guarantee fighting ability. If self development is your goal any art could meet that criteria. I'm referring specifically to the ability to hitting people that don't want to be hit and will also hit you back in a randomized real time fashion. Yes unfortunately YouTube and Internet videos are one primary source of evidence. Video is tangible evidence for something to be scientifically true it must have tangible, measurable, evidence. The fact that a lot if wc sparring goes unfilmed is not evidence. There's also a lot of boxing that goes unfilmed. Part of the reason for boxings success as a fighting style is the sportive component. Competitors train fighters and hobbyists alike. As a hobbyist I train and spar with competitors who have experience and can push me to become better. Wc does not have this benefit, the collective fighting experience of wc and boxers is not equal because there are many more boxers that compete. IMO wc would benefit from competition and a rule set that favors the wc fighter. With enough wc exclusive fighting we may see the development of fighters who can branch out to other martial sports, a side effect of the development of wc as a sport is that non competitive wc enthusiasts can benefit from the knowledge of the fighters.

Lol at boxers not being able to increase ability after 30. I didn't start boxing until I was 30 and some how I've magically gotten more skilled. I'm sure if you dig you'll find ample evidence of professional boxers improving after age 30. Of course their are weight classes in boxing, there are weight classes in nearly all martial sports. The reality is that when you have two equally skilled fighters, the bigger guy wins. In early UFCs we didn't have weight classes but I'd argue that the smaller guys who beat larger guys were much better than their large opponents. Same for boxing, there are much smaller guys than me who can beat me, but they are better boxers and compete in amateur matches regularly.

 

[Vajramusti]

Self development is a pretty broad term that doesn't guarantee fighting abilityself development is your goal any art could meet that criteria.
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On a wing chun forum, I am interested in wing chun development.

 

[Mephisto]

That doesn't really address any of your other fallacies.

 

[Jake104]

That doesn't really address any of your other fallacies.

There is plenty of video evidence. Problem is, when WC actually does good then automatically the other guy/ boxer/ Thai boxer/ karate/ whoever sucks. Or the Wing Chun community says, oooohhh where's the WC? Wheres the tan/bong/fuk? Most people have this misconception that WC should look like it's drills. Hate to break it to you but, WC practiced correctly won't look like much. The higher level it's practiced, the more the movements become refined and the less you visually will see.

I have videos of myself sparring full contact against a boxer and another WC guy. I used my WC just like I train it. I just got sick of hearing, that's not WC, that's not boxing, blah blah blah...... Blah blah....so I took it down. I kind of came to a realization. That first, it's a business, and the phonies actually prefer it to look like a drill driven flowery kind of system. Which gives people a false sense of security. Then they go out and video themselves in a WC guard getting creamed. Second, i have learned To embrace the naysayers like yourself. In the real world I never talk about WC. I just use it. First rule of WC fight club is: you do not talk about WC fight club. Duh!!.. I consider myself a MA'ist first. My main objective is to be a good fighter and protect myself. Wing Chun and Eskrima are the only arts I practice. The results speak for themselves and keep me training everyday. If boxing does that for you? Then great! I like boxing.

 

[Mephisto]

There is plenty of video evidence. Problem is, when WC actually does good then automatically the other guy/ boxer/ Thai boxer/ karate/ whoever sucks. Or the Wing Chun community says, oooohhh where's the WC? Wheres the tan/bong/fuk? Most people have this misconception that WC should look like it's drills. Hate to break it to you but, WC practiced correctly won't look like much. The higher level it's practiced, the more the movements become refined and the less you visually will see.

I have videos of myself sparring full contact against a boxer and another WC guy. I used my WC just like I train it. I just got sick of hearing, that's not WC, that's not boxing, blah blah blah...... Blah blah....so I took it down. I kind of came to a realization. That first, it's a business, and the phonies actually prefer it to look like a drill driven flowery kind of system. Which gives people a false sense of security. Then they go out and video themselves in a WC guard getting creamed. Second, i have learned To embrace the naysayers like yourself. In the real world I never talk about WC. I just use it. First rule of WC fight club is: you do not talk about WC fight club. Duh!!.. I consider myself a MA'ist first. My main objective is to be a good fighter and protect myself. Wing Chun and Eskrima are the only arts I practice. The results speak for themselves and keep me training everyday. If boxing does that for you? Then great! I like boxing.

That's great man. You seem to have a realistic outlook, the wc community needs more guys like you. That's a problem I've mentioned here before, the wc community is quick label guys that apply the art more practically as "unauthentic". So it's gotta be pretty disconcerting as a wc guy to have boxers and other strikers and your own community looking down on you. Id think that once you (or anyone? start beating boxers or strikers the striking community will have to embrace wc as a viable striking art. Fight some boxers with an amateur record, than no one can say the boxers aren't any good. I train FMA and boxing myself. I'm critical of wc but I'm not unwilling to admit it's got some potential.

 

[tkdwarrior]

In the end this os just also a comparison of training methodologies. But it is also true whatever style it is the practitioner more than the art.

 

[Jake104]

That's great man. You seem to have a realistic outlook, the wc community needs more guys like you. That's a problem I've mentioned here before, the wc community is quick label guys that apply the art more practically as "unauthentic". So it's gotta be pretty disconcerting as a wc guy to have boxers and other strikers and your own community looking down on you. Id think that once you (or anyone? start beating boxers or strikers the striking community will have to embrace wc as a viable striking art. Fight some boxers with an amateur record, than no one can say the boxers aren't any good. I train FMA and boxing myself. I'm critical of wc but I'm not unwilling to admit it's got some potential.

It's not disconcerting. I could careless. Like I said before when I'm out in the real world around other fighters. I don't carry the Wing Chun torch. It's too heavy! I get along great with boxers and other MA styles. My FMA coach is a boxer at heart. He loves boxing. We can talk for hours on the different approaches each art takes to achieve the same outcome. I embrace the diversity and learn how I can use it to my advantage. I actually prefer trading with other arts more than with WC. That's just me!

 

[Jake104]

In the end this os just also a comparison of training methodologies. But it is also true whatever style it is the practitioner more than the art.

Oh no! Don't get him ( Mephisto ) started on the practitioner vs the art debate again! haha!

 

[Reeksta]

This is an interesting debate. As someone who fairly recently began wing chun after doing a lot of research on it, I think @Mephisto makes some valid points. My take on it is that the principles and techniques behind WC are brilliant - ideal for realistic self defence - but many practitioners suffer from a lack of aliveness in their training. I look at the students at my school and there's some who are fantastically skilled, but when I think of the kind of intensity the monsters at my wrestling club or my old judo buddies bring to the table, I simply can't imagine them coping with it. Some of us have an attitude more in line with @Jake104 and like to get a bit more rough with each other but we're the minority tbh.
Worth pointing out that similar problems exist within most systems. I have a friend who's a really good purple belt in BJJ. He medals in comps regularly and taps me out with the quickness if we roll pure grappling. If we introduce striking on the ground (even really light slaps) though he can't cope at all. All his fancy guard variations go out the window and he starts flapping his arms around like he's being attacked by a swarm of bees. Similarly, another mate of mine is a JKD practitioner with really good kickboxing but he's bought into the idea that 'grappling is just for sport' (which I think is BS personally) and is thus really easy to take down and completely helpless off his back. I guess what I'm saying - and what the common theme of this thread seems to be - is that it's important to be objective about what and how we train, so that we can identify our weaknesses and look to rectify them.

 

[tkdwarrior]

Oh no! Don't get him ( Mephisto ) started on the practitioner vs the art debate again! haha!

Excuse me?

 

[Mephisto]

Excuse me?

In the end this os just also a comparison of training methodologies. But it is also true whatever style it is the practitioner more than the art.

I've been hammering the point that the individual>style is not a fact, it's up for debate and I'd say it's simply not true. If you want to learn how to handle realistic and resisting opponents some systems are better. Yes, there will always be good and bad fighters in any system but if you look at the average practitioner's ability to handle a resisting opponent in a specific system you'll get an idea of how effective said system is for fighting resisting opponents. The individual trumps style argument is untrue and very debatable but people keep repeating it as if it were a fact.

 

[Vajramusti]

That doesn't really address any of your other fallacies.

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Fallacies? The thread is full of them. FWIW I am way past debating . Interested in discussing wing chun in a wing chun forum.

 

[tkdwarrior]

Is that so?

 

[geezer]

Personally, I'd also disagree with Mephisto's earlier statement, "Judging from the available evidence is say boxing is just better if fighting ability is your goal." But then he went on to make some excellent points.

In a subsequent post he stated, "the collective fighting experience of wc and boxers is not equal because there are many more boxers that compete. IMO wc would benefit from competition and a rule set that favors the wc fighter. With enough wc exclusive fighting we may see the development of fighters who can branch out to other martial sports, a side effect of the development of wc as a sport is that non competitive wc enthusiasts can benefit from the knowledge of the fighters."

I'll be 60 this coming summer so I'm getting past the age where I personally can spar hard (including grappling) without constantly sustaining injuries, but I do believe that having more sparring and competition in general could benefit WC. Not only would it raise the standard of those of us who practice WC, it would also attract more athletic and competitive individuals to the art.