tae-kwon-do vs wing chun in non-sport combat?

[ALEX WHITE]

Ultimately it depends on the practitioner. But if we will go by the saying that you react by the way you train, taekwondo particularly wtf taekwondo may suffer a bit when it comes to an exchange of techniques with a wing chun guy. WTF practitioners generally practice the sport version of the art. And when it comes to self defense that is very lacking. Unless the wtf guy gets a full on power kick to your head like dwi hooryo chagi or naeryo chagi to your nose... That would be a very unpleasant experience and would often guarantee the end of a fight.

your right that Most Wing Chun Fighters train the sport app, but the people I train with all gear their individual styles for self defense situations, I do the same thing as them and I have used wing chun on he street before aswell as the odd times I have been challenged by new people I meet

 

[tkdwarrior]

your right that Most Wing Chun Fighters train the sport app, but the people I train with all gear their individual styles for self defense situations, I do the same thing as them and I have used wing chun on he street before aswell as the odd times I have been challenged by new people I meet

I said that most kukki taekwondo practitioners train more the sport aspect. Wing Chun I am sure is very hard core.

 

[drop bear]

 

[PiedmontChun]

Interesting video. I was skeptical the first half as they were just circling. That fairly rapid kick (roundhouse I suppose?) took the shirtless guy by surprise and shows the threat that TKD kicks and speed do present in a fight.
However, I notice that at the time he delivered the kick, he was already in a range that WC / WT guys (in my WT school anyway) are generally taught to NOT be in at all. Outside of kick range = relatively safe. Just within kick range = bad place to be and action has to be taken to either close the gap or maintain more space. In my opinion, allowing black shirt guy to get close enough to land kicks from a static position like that would mean a WC/WT guy would deserve to eat that kick if they don't close the gap.

 

[Kwan Sau]

...at the time he delivered the kick, he was already in a range that WC / WT guys (in my WT school anyway) are generally taught to NOT be in at all. Outside of kick range = relatively safe. Just within kick range = bad place to be and action has to be taken to either close the gap or maintain more space. In my opinion, allowing black shirt guy to get close enough to land kicks from a static position like that would mean a WC/WT guy would deserve to eat that kick if they don't close the gap.

Hi Piedmont. Your statement IMO is only partially correct. Good Yip Man wing chun can operate at whatever distance is required. As you may know, WC has many 'flavors'...most WC out there only focuses on short bridge. But WC is designed for long and short bridge, depending on the situation.
Your two choices of "close the gap" or "maintain more space" are certainly two options...however the third option is to employ counter-kicking using WC's straight line concept. In other words: go straight for the target with your nearest weapon to the nearest target. In both of those TKD attacks, he uses a indirect path or trajectory. A common WC saying I've heard is: "use straight to defeat circular".
Just my .02.
Thanks.

 

[drop bear]

Hi Piedmont. Your statement IMO is only partially correct. Good Yip Man wing chun can operate at whatever distance is required. As you may know, WC has many 'flavors'...most WC out there only focuses on short bridge. But WC is designed for long and short bridge, depending on the situation.
Your two choices of "close the gap" or "maintain more space" are certainly two options...however the third option is to employ counter-kicking using WC's straight line concept. In other words: go straight for the target with your nearest weapon to the nearest target. In both of those TKD attacks, he uses a indirect path or trajectory. A common WC saying I've heard is: "use straight to defeat circular".
Just my .02.
Thanks.

i must admit the last thing i would do is get into a kick battle with a tkd guy.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting video. I was skeptical the first half as they were just circling. That fairly rapid kick (roundhouse I suppose?) took the shirtless guy by surprise and shows the threat that TKD kicks and speed do present in a fight.
However, I notice that at the time he delivered the kick, he was already in a range that WC / WT guys (in my WT school anyway) are generally taught to NOT be in at all. Outside of kick range = relatively safe. Just within kick range = bad place to be and action has to be taken to either close the gap or maintain more space. In my opinion, allowing black shirt guy to get close enough to land kicks from a static position like that would mean a WC/WT guy would deserve to eat that kick if they don't close the gap.

in that regard yeah. But part of the battle is maintaining your range. So the tactics you have to close the gap competes with his tactic to keep it.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Hi Piedmont. Your statement IMO is only partially correct. Good Yip Man wing chun can operate at whatever distance is required. As you may know, WC has many 'flavors'...most WC out there only focuses on short bridge. But WC is designed for long and short bridge, depending on the situation.
Your two choices of "close the gap" or "maintain more space" are certainly two options...however the third option is to employ counter-kicking using WC's straight line concept. In other words: go straight for the target with your nearest weapon to the nearest target. In both of those TKD attacks, he uses a indirect path or trajectory. A common WC saying I've heard is: "use straight to defeat circular".
Just my .02.
Thanks.

Yes, apologies for not being more comprehensive in my statement. It is not simply limited to the two choices I stated, and I certainly was not pointing to any perceived weakness on the part of WC/WT. My school does train various kick defenses but its naive to think these wil always work when a kicker is adept at not telegraphing his kicks.
The kicker's trajectory might be circular in this instance like you mention, but it was fairly rapid and would require an equally rapid and coordinated response to overcome. Basically, if you can't react and get there fast enough, all this "straight versus circular" works only in theory, not practice. I think the shirtless guy put himself in a place I would not be, if I was given a choice at all.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Yes, apologies for not being more comprehensive in my statement. It is not simply limited to the two choices I stated, and I certainly was not pointing to any perceived weakness on the part of WC/WT. My school does train various kick defenses but its naive to think these wil always work when a kicker is adept at not telegraphing his kicks.
The kicker's trajectory might be circular in this instance like you mention, but it was fairly rapid and would require an equally rapid and coordinated response to overcome. Basically, if you can't react and get there fast enough, all this "straight versus circular" works only in theory, not practice. I think the shirtless guy put himself in a place I would not be, if I was given a choice at all.

Hmmm...interesting response.
I guess we see different things from that video; and seem to view WC very differently also.
I'm not familiar with WT that you train...but in WC, kicks are not telegraphed. Same as the hands.
In that video, he was clearly telegraphing his intent IMO. Just watching his body language, his shoulder line, foot placement etc. Anyways, no biggie. Now, your second statement (in bold above) makes me assume you mean it applies to your WT hand skill also(?). In your WT class training...do you guys ever practice WT responses to an attacker who is throwing curved attacks at you (i.e. haymakers? Boxer's hook etc?). If so, it is the same thing upstairs as it is downstairs. That's the point I was trying to make. Thx.

 

[Kwan Sau]

i must admit the last thing i would do is get into a kick battle with a tkd guy.

Same here! haha. They have powerful legs. But a 'battle' implies a back and forth struggle. That's not what I was talking about.

 

[drop bear]

Same here! haha. They have powerful legs. But a 'battle' implies a back and forth struggle. That's not what I was talking about.

well you are engaging him at his point of strength.

tkd guys kick pretty well. They are comfortable with dealing with kicks.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Hmmm...interesting response.
I guess we see different things from that video; and seem to view WC very differently also.
I'm not familiar with WT that you train...but in WC, kicks are not telegraphed. Same as the hands.
In that video, he was clearly telegraphing his intent IMO. Just watching his body language, his shoulder line, foot placement etc. Anyways, no biggie. Now, your second statement (in bold above) makes me assume you mean it applies to your WT hand skill also(?). In your WT class training...do you guys ever practice WT responses to an attacker who is throwing curved attacks at you (i.e. haymakers? Boxer's hook etc?). If so, it is the same thing upstairs as it is downstairs. That's the point I was trying to make. Thx.

The kick itself was pretty rapid. I'm just realistically pointing out that while "linear to defeat circular", while true or correct, still requires a fairly rapid response. I could see some low to mid level WC/WT guys eating that kick in the video before they could adequate react, and thats not a criticism of the system, its just being realistic. Reason being is that punching would have required TKD guy to step in, that kick was able to be delivered RIGHT from where he was squared up against shirtless guy. Back to my original statement, I believe its better to just not be in that precise range if you can help it as just a geeneral principle. I would rather make someone work harder to deliver that kick to me, or step in to attack. Who knows what Shirtless guy's training, or lack thereof, is exactly, but his reaction to that kick was essentially nil.
Theres no need to read between the lines of what I was saying and assume things about my training. We (my school) regularly train a powerful centreline attack / response against circular attacks, be they a kick or haymaker type punch. But we are also taught that at certain distance, we need to be striking or not be there at all.

 

[Jake104]

And what do you think a random attacker will be doing on the street?

From experience, I'd say 90% of the time a sucker punch will come. The other ten percent may square off with you if you're lucky.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just for the record...
Both of those were crappy kicks.
The roundhouse was delivered to the hip, which is a rotten target, and the position of the hips upon impact ensures that it was a no-power strike.
The spinning kick was half hook kick and half back kick. He did manage to land it on a good target, so it worked, but had it been done properly the other kid would likely have been completely out, not just squatting and saying "that's it, no more".

 

[Jake104]

That guy was real nice. They are or were probably friends. He could of KO'd him bad. He showed restraint and compassion.

 

[Jake104]

The kick itself was pretty rapid. I'm just realistically pointing out that while "linear to defeat circular", while true or correct, still requires a fairly rapid response. I could see some low to mid level WC/WT guys eating that kick in the video before they could adequate react, and thats not a criticism of the system, its just being realistic. Reason being is that punching would have required TKD guy to step in, that kick was able to be delivered RIGHT from where he was squared up against shirtless guy. Back to my original statement, I believe its better to just not be in that precise range if you can help it as just a geeneral principle. I would rather make someone work harder to deliver that kick to me, or step in to attack. Who knows what Shirtless guy's training, or lack thereof, is exactly, but his reaction to that kick was essentially nil.
Theres no need to read between the lines of what I was saying and assume things about my training. We (my school) regularly train a powerful centreline attack / response against circular attacks, be they a kick or haymaker type punch. But we are also taught that at certain distance, we need to be striking or not be there at all.

It's just timing your response properly off the kick timing. Pretty basic if you spar. Me personally being a WC guy. I would have stayed a half step out of his kicking range. Let him do his thing and miss then attack. Reason being his kicks weren't the best and he telegraphed a lot. Somebody better id jam in off the kicks timing. Either with an angle in meeting the kick early or angling to the opposite side past the point of full power. Either way jamming in and not allowing it to achieve it's maximum power or intended target. Maybe I eat it maybe I don't. But eating a kick off its original trajectory is way better than eating it on target and at full power. Ask the guy in the video. I bet he agrees!

 

[Mephisto]

From experience, I'd say 90% of the time a sucker punch will come. The other ten percent may square off with you if you're lucky.

I was referring to your ridiculous statement that all sparring does is get you better at sparring resisting opponents. People on the street will resist you, if you have experience with resistance training you'll be better prepared.

Please link a study that proves 90% of the time a sucker punch will come. Your experience differs from mine it's no more valid. I think you've gotten your numbers from the Gracie book of fight statistics "200% of fights go to the ground!". I'd believe a Gracie over you however.

 

[Buka]

It really isn't about this style or that, about tactics or anything else. One guy got caught and it sure as hell wrecked his day, the poor bastard. I'll bet it hurt, too.

I hope he was the bad guy in all that. There's always a bad guy. Sometimes there's two.

 

[drop bear]

The kick itself was pretty rapid. I'm just realistically pointing out that while "linear to defeat circular", while true or correct, still requires a fairly rapid response. I could see some low to mid level WC/WT guys eating that kick in the video before they could adequate react, and thats not a criticism of the system, its just being realistic. Reason being is that punching would have required TKD guy to step in, that kick was able to be delivered RIGHT from where he was squared up against shirtless guy. Back to my original statement, I believe its better to just not be in that precise range if you can help it as just a geeneral principle. I would rather make someone work harder to deliver that kick to me, or step in to attack. Who knows what Shirtless guy's training, or lack thereof, is exactly, but his reaction to that kick was essentially nil.
Theres no need to read between the lines of what I was saying and assume things about my training. We (my school) regularly train a powerful centreline attack / response against circular attacks, be they a kick or haymaker type punch. But we are also taught that at certain distance, we need to be striking or not be there at all.

that heel kick is a bit tricky to deal with. Yes going forward and countering is the best method. But if your timing is a bit out you eat one of the most dangerous kicks a human being can throw.

and most people don't have the stones.

i certainly don't most of the time and generally go backwards giving up the advantage.

 

[drop bear]

A very effective use of that kick.

the head hunter.