Sword & Hammer, Obscure Wing

[kenpo_cory]

Enough of the macho posturing about pulling out and eye, crushing the larynx, etc...how many of the readers have ever even seen somebody with a closed-off airway, conscious and struggling to get a breath? Show of hands?

Well I cant say I have ever seen anyone with a crushed larynx. But I can say that I have hit someone in the throat and watched them croak like a frog trying to get a breath. And my opinion is, not that it matters, it worked for self defense purposes very well. And also for the record, I had no problem hitting him in the throat without crushing his larynx. You don't have to kill someone when you hit them there. I have no desire to maim or kill someone, but I also wouldn't hesitate to poke someone in the eye or strike them in the throat should I feel I need to. But, Like I said before, To each his own. :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

My point was that what you have to do when you're really in trouble is one thing, the consequences of such actions are another thing, and posturing about how cool taking out somebody's eye is still another thing.

In my opinion, this particular topic is related to issues having to do with the whole fantasy of learning self-defense as quickly as possible. It certainly relates to the recurrent notion of throwing out all those, "inessential," techniques and sets and forms and just having, "efficient," fighting. And it overlaps questions of changing techniques and promoting, "warrior-hood," through risky training methods.

The regularity of training, the forms and sets and techniques, the patient study of a martial art, are there to teach--among many other things--restraint, control, thought. To teach, "courtesy," in other words, in all its implications.

But then, this is--or should be--about the oldest martial lesson there is.

 

[Thesemindz]

The regularity of training, the forms and sets and techniques, the patient study of a martial art, are there to teach--among many other things--restraint, control, thought. To teach, "courtesy," in other words, in all its implications.

But then, this is--or should be--about the oldest martial lesson there is.

After a long night of eye gouging and head stomping, my instructor stopped the class and asked how many of us had their eyes ripped out. He asked how many of us had broken bones or smashed noses. He pointed out that the whole time we thought we were learning how to pluck eyes and crush skulls we were really learning control. We were learning how to manipulate without destroying. I've been practicing poking people in the eyes for years, and the only time I ever actually did was when I was first learning how and I didn't have good control yet. Luckily, my instructor is forgiving. The more I practice it, the better I get at moving the head and repositioning my opponent without actually taking his eyes.

It's funny how almost everyone I know can say, "The first time I learned this eye poke I stuck my fingers right in my instructor's eyes to the fist." I don't know anybody who's been practicing for years who says, "Every time I do this technique with a partner I end up blinding another poor kid for life."

-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

Sorry, this is off topic, but I'm trying to reach Doc, and he won't accept emails or pms. Sorry.


Sir, I started a thread over in the General Self Defense forum entitled, "I could beat the british, a boxer, and your best knife fighter."

If you get a chance, I'd really like to hear your opinion on this particular subject. I think you've been doing some things with your particular style of Kenpo that might give you a unique perspective on this topic. Thanks alot.


-Rob

 

[Rich_Hale]

Everything you need to know is not taught (repetitively) in every technique.

When you’re reading Mr. Parker’s technique manual, keep in mind that even the most descriptive techniques are still only written in outline form. None of the techniques are written out so completely that you can study only that technique and come away with a complete understanding of how it is to be done.

You should always take what you have learned from other techniques, forms, sets, etc., and apply that knowledge to the techniques, forms, sets, etc., that you are currently learning, or have previously learned.

For example, let’s say you were taught Sword and Hammer, without being told to turn and look at your opponent before striking, but during that same time you were being taught Short Form 1 and “were” being taught to look before you blocked. You should then ask your teacher if the same principle should apply in Sword and Hammer. At that point your teacher will likely throw his fist in the air and yell “YES!”

Then by the time you get to Obscure Wing, you won't even need to ask. You would just naturally look toward your opponent before striking, because it’s something you learned to do earlier.

Now let’s say you were never taught to look toward your opponent, before blocking in Short Form 1, or striking in Obscure Sword, but you were taught to do so in Obscure Wing. Remember; you should be constantly reviewing previously learned material and applying any new principles you have learned to the old material.

So, in this case you would go to your teacher and ask if you are looking at your opponent, before striking, in Obscure Wing, shouldn’t you be doing so in Obscure Sword and possibly in Short Form 1 as well. If he tells you yes, continue your studies. If he tells you no, continue looking for a new teacher.

 

[Doc]

My point was that what you have to do when you're really in trouble is one thing, the consequences of such actions are another thing, and posturing about how cool taking out somebody's eye is still another thing.

In my opinion, this particular topic is related to issues having to do with the whole fantasy of learning self-defense as quickly as possible. It certainly relates to the recurrent notion of throwing out all those, "inessential," techniques and sets and forms and just having, "efficient," fighting. And it overlaps questions of changing techniques and promoting, "warrior-hood," through risky training methods.

The regularity of training, the forms and sets and techniques, the patient study of a martial art, are there to teach--among many other things--restraint, control, thought. To teach, "courtesy," in other words, in all its implications.

But then, this is--or should be--about the oldest martial lesson there is.

Well said sir. In my primary life's profession to date, I've had and seen my share of what amounts to senseless and unnecessary violence. Rarely does anyone speak of the consequences of these actions that can devestate on both sides of the equation. For me personally, practicing to strike a person in the throat for placing their hand on your shoulder is repugnant, and I don't teach those lessons. However when a student is placed in what THEY feel is significant jeopardy, THEY will make that decision and accept its consequences morally and legally. I just hope what I've taught them will have been sufficient so they never have to smash someone in the throat and possibly kill them, because they felt threatened. I also hope to God if it happens, they were correct in their assessment. A great deal of my students as well as myself, are always armed as a matter of employment policy and social necessity. The consequences of your actions is something you must always consider in a moral world not completely gone mad.

 

[Doc]

Sorry, this is off topic, but I'm trying to reach Doc, and he won't accept emails or pms. Sorry.


Sir, I started a thread over in the General Self Defense forum entitled, "I could beat the british, a boxer, and your best knife fighter."

If you get a chance, I'd really like to hear your opinion on this particular subject. I think you've been doing some things with your particular style of Kenpo that might give you a unique perspective on this topic. Thanks alot.


-Rob

Sorry I have receive neither.

 

[Doc]

Everything you need to know is not taught (repetitively) in every technique.

When you’re reading Mr. Parker’s technique manual, keep in mind that even the most descriptive techniques are still only written in outline form. None of the techniques are written out so completely that you can study only that technique and come away with a complete understanding of how it is to be done.

You should always take what you have learned from other techniques, forms, sets, etc., and apply that knowledge to the techniques, forms, sets, etc., that you are currently learning, or have previously learned.

For example, let’s say you were taught Sword and Hammer, without being told to turn and look at your opponent before striking, but during that same time you were being taught Short Form 1 and “were” being taught to look before you blocked. You should then ask your teacher if the same principle should apply in Sword and Hammer. At that point your teacher will likely throw his fist in the air and yell “YES!”

Then by the time you get to Obscure Wing, you won't even need to ask. You would just naturally look toward your opponent before striking, because it’s something you learned to do earlier.

Now let’s say you were never taught to look toward your opponent, before blocking in Short Form 1, or striking in Obscure Sword, but you were taught to do so in Obscure Wing. Remember; you should be constantly reviewing previously learned material and applying any new principles you have learned to the old material.

So, in this case you would go to your teacher and ask if you are looking at your opponent, before striking, in Obscure Wing, shouldn’t you be doing so in Obscure Sword and possibly in Short Form 1 as well. If he tells you yes, continue your studies. If he tells you no, continue looking for a new teacher.

Hey Rich, I agree with your assessment of the material and have said so for years to the chagrin of some. The only thing I might add is in my study with Parker, we addressed these things specifically as part of the "Psycology of Confrontation" component of my training and consequences both morally and legally were at the forefront of everything he taught me. As a working street cop, we always addressed these issues as part of the base or default technique. The only other thing I might add is, I teach my students to look as a part of the learning process. During a lesson I might say, "When you execute this technique the last thing you want to have to say afterwards is - I'm sorry officer, I didn't know that was you." I've come to the copnclusion a great deal of what and how I was taught was built around my profession and Parker's fascination from the beginning with law enforcement methods and techniques. Glad to see you "back from the dead" and keep kicking.

 

[Doc]

After a long night of eye gouging and head stomping, my instructor stopped the class and asked how many of us had their eyes ripped out. He asked how many of us had broken bones or smashed noses. He pointed out that the whole time we thought we were learning how to pluck eyes and crush skulls we were really learning control. We were learning how to manipulate without destroying. I've been practicing poking people in the eyes for years, and the only time I ever actually did was when I was first learning how and I didn't have good control yet. Luckily, my instructor is forgiving. The more I practice it, the better I get at moving the head and repositioning my opponent without actually taking his eyes.

It's funny how almost everyone I know can say, "The first time I learned this eye poke I stuck my fingers right in my instructor's eyes to the fist." I don't know anybody who's been practicing for years who says, "Every time I do this technique with a partner I end up blinding another poor kid for life."

-Rob

While I may agree with the conclusion drawn by a teacher with regard to learning control, I fail to see the efficacy of repetitive practice of morally questionable technique, as a methodology of learning "control." It is clear some measure of "physical control" is obviously accomplished by not executing fully, however students time would be best spent in my opinion practicing what you actually would expect them to do, rather than control of what not to do. It is must harder to teach someone an effective alternative strike than to "poke' someone in the eyes. After all any kid who has ever seen a 3 Stooge movie can poke someone in the eyes. Not much skill involved in that. One of the problems is commercial kenpo-karate focuses on the quick and the easy to insure immediate effectiveness. Teaching otherwise is much more difficult and requires real knowledge and skill. Remove general blunt force trauma, groin strikes, eye pokes, and throat smashes and you are left with what? These are things any guy off the street can do from day one before he puts on a practice uniform. I question the teachers methodology, however i'm sure he feels he knows best for his students. At least I hope so. It's just teaching what NOT to do over and over is an impractical approach in my opinion.

 

[Thesemindz]

While I may agree with the conclusion drawn by a teacher with regard to learning control, I fail to see the efficacy of repetitive practice of morally questionable technique, as a methodology of learning "control." It is clear some measure of "physical control" is obviously accomplished by not executing fully, however students time would be best spent in my opinion practicing what you actually would expect them to do, rather than control of what not to do. It is must harder to teach someone an effective alternative strike than to "poke' someone in the eyes. After all any kid who has ever seen a 3 Stooge movie can poke someone in the eyes. Not much skill involved in that. One of the problems is commercial kenpo-karate focuses on the quick and the easy to insure immediate effectiveness. Teaching otherwise is much more difficult and requires real knowledge and skill. Remove general blunt force trauma, groin strikes, eye pokes, and throat smashes and you are left with what? These are things any guy off the street can do from day one before he puts on a practice uniform. I question the teachers methodology, however i'm sure he feels he knows best for his students. At least I hope so. It's just teaching what NOT to do over and over is an impractical approach in my opinion.

I wouldn't quite agree with your assertion that "These are things, (blunt force trauma, groin strikes, eye pokes, and throat smashes,) any guy off the street can do from day one before he puts on a practice uniform." I have seen many guys off the street, and they can barely throw a half way decent punch, much less hit a moving target half an inch in diameter at 80-90 miles per hour with a single finger while simultaneously defending against their opponent's attacks, maintaing a decent stance, and penetrating past their opponenet's defenses. If you disagree, then I recommend that you stand with your back to a B.O.B. (body opponent bag,) or some equivalent, say another student, and then suddenly turn and strike towards the eyes. I think anyone attempting this drill over time will see how difficult it is to hit even a stationary target consistently with a high degree of form, accuracy, speed, and power. I suppose an arguement could be made that most people who decide to sign up for Karate lessons are less violent and aggressive than a real street fighter, but I doubt even a real street fighter could accomplish this. Now, I generally agree with your position on anatomically based techniques versus general motion, but I think that general motion, if studied and understood, can become a science of application in and of itself. First of all, we don't study only eye pokes. Secondly, we take the lessons of motion contained within the techniques, and then extrapolate motion from them and drill it in a spontaneous environment. We seek effectiveness through understanding human anatomy and the applications of motion to disrupt or corrupt the structure of that anatomy.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I heard that Mr. Parker defended teaching his students to pull their punches off the body by saying that if you could stop a punch half an inch in front of a target, you had the control to stop it two inches past the target. We practice control, but we also practice penetration. We don't just wave at each others heads and then pat ourselves on the back and tell each other how badass we are. We are in there every night, practicing our kenpo to improve our technique, working in the air, on the body, on the bag, on pads, on the shields, on the walls, with weapons, with blindfolds, standing up, laying down, in the dark, against multiple opponents, and were not just screwing around. The student doesn't practice to not poke the eyes. He practices whatever technique is being practiced, at the intensity designated by the instructor, in such a fashion as to allow his partner to have a turn next. Then he practices the technique on his own time at varying degrees of intensity and penetration. I promise you, I can poke my finger as far into someones head as need be.

I would also take issue with your representation of eye gouges and head stomps as "morally questionable." Certaintly, in some circumstances, stomping the head of a downed opponent would be beyond what a jury might consider, "reasonable force." However, I'm sure you can think of a situation wherein a person would be justified in blinding or even killing an opponent, even one who was on the ground. Certaintly you don't consider being on the ground being out of a fight? This is why we teach our students to use a degree of force which is comparable to the context of the situation in their very first lesson. Let me reiterate that. In a student's first lesson in our school, we teach them to use the amount of force called for within any specific situation, not to go for maximum destruction of their opponent our of some misguided sense of rightousness. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, and if so, feel free to correct me.

Please don't misunderstand me. The lesson that night wasn't how not to hurt your opponent. It was how to poke him in the eye and stomp on his head. It was only later that our instructor pointed out to us that we had learned control as well. And understand, this was a black belt class, executing a black belt technique. We don't take "any guy off the street" and teach him Leap of Death as his first technique.


-Rob

 

[Doc]

I wouldn't quite agree with your assertion that "These are things, (blunt force trauma, groin strikes, eye pokes, and throat smashes,) any guy off the street can do from day one before he puts on a practice uniform."

Well perhaps that's because after over thirty years on the street, I've been exposed to "street people" who fight for survival. Maybe your experiences are a tad shorter and a bit less intense where you've been. I know there is decent skill out there that will take you out, belt, bob, and all on a regular basis.

I have seen many guys off the street, and they can barely throw a half way decent punch,

Than you've never been to Compton, Nickerson, Pablos, White Fence, Big Hazzard, etc. I could pick out a couple of regulars who have been fighting and surviving on the street longer than you have been an adult. Trust me, they are not afraid of martial artist or their belts.

If you disagree, then I recommend that you stand with your back to a B.O.B. (body opponent bag,) or some equivalent, say another student, and then suddenly turn and strike towards the eyes. I think anyone attempting this drill over time will see how difficult it is to hit even a stationary target consistently with a high degree of form, accuracy, speed, and power.

I suppose an arguement could be made that most people who decide to sign up for Karate lessons are less violent and aggressive than a real street fighter, but I doubt even a real street fighter could accomplish this.

Street fighters don't do your drills, they just beat the crap out of you. Let me put it another way. I've seen guys go in tournaments with no training at all for the fun of it, at every level and win, just to see what its like.

Now, I generally agree with your position on anatomically based techniques versus general motion, but I think that general motion, if studied and understood, can become a science of application in and of itself.

It can become a methodology, and in fact already is, but not a science and only in limited circumstances.

First of all, we don't study only eye pokes.

I would have never known.

Secondly, we take the lessons of motion contained within the techniques, and then extrapolate motion from them and drill it in a spontaneous environment.

I might have heard that before.

We seek effectiveness through understanding human anatomy and the applications of motion to disrupt or corrupt the structure of that anatomy.

So you've learned human anatomy. OK, explain how you do that in a technique so I can see what you know about human anatomy applications in a dynamic environment.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I heard that Mr. Parker defended teaching his students to pull their punches off the body by saying that if you could stop a punch half an inch in front of a target, you had the control to stop it two inches past the target. We practice control, but we also practice penetration.

Controlling punches and eye pokes are not the same type of training as I explained in my previous response.

We don't just wave at each others heads and then pat ourselves on the back and tell each other how badass we are. We are in there every night, practicing our kenpo to improve our technique, working in the air, on the body, on the bag, on pads, on the shields, on the walls, with weapons, with blindfolds, standing up, laying down, in the dark, against multiple opponents, and were not just screwing around. The student doesn't practice to not poke the eyes. He practices whatever technique is being practiced, at the intensity designated by the instructor, in such a fashion as to allow his partner to have a turn next. Then he practices the technique on his own time at varying degrees of intensity and penetration. I promise you, I can poke my finger as far into someones head as need be.

Thank you for making my point.

I would also take issue with your representation of eye gouges and head stomps as "morally questionable."

Perhaps you should re-read what i wrote.

Certaintly, in some circumstances, stomping the head of a downed opponent would be beyond what a jury might consider, "reasonable force." However, I'm sure you can think of a situation wherein a person would be justified in blinding or even killing an opponent, even one who was on the ground. Certaintly you don't consider being on the ground being out of a fight? This is why we teach our students to use a degree of force which is comparable to the context of the situation in their very first lesson. Let me reiterate that. In a student's first lesson in our school, we teach them to use the amount of force called for within any specific situation, not to go for maximum destruction of their opponent our of some misguided sense of rightousness. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, and if so, feel free to correct me.

Please don't misunderstand me. The lesson that night wasn't how not to hurt your opponent. It was how to poke him in the eye and stomp on his head. It was only later that our instructor pointed out to us that we had learned control as well. And understand, this was a black belt class, executing a black belt technique. We don't take "any guy off the street" and teach him Leap of Death as his first technique.
-Rob

Clearly you work hard at what you do, and have a lot of pride in your workouts. I only suggest that it might not be the best way to do what you're doing. If it's working for you, don't let the rants of an old man street fighter/cop in the arts for 50 years rattle your cage. What the hell do I know?

 

[Thesemindz]

Well perhaps that's because after over thirty years on the street, I've been exposed to "street people" who fight for survival. Maybe your experiences are a tad shorter and a bit less intense where you've been. I know there is decent skill out there that will take you out, belt, bob, and all on a regular basis.

I don't doubt or disagree with your statement. Let me also say right now that I don't doubt or challenge your experience and skill, or the fact that you are more knowledgable than I am. However, you have now gone from "any guy off the street," to "street people who fight for survival." I was challenging your original assertion, not this new and revised one.

Than you've never been to Compton, Nickerson, Pablos, White Fence, Big Hazzard, etc. I could pick out a couple of regulars who have been fighting and surviving on the street longer than you have been an adult. Trust me, they are not afraid of martial artist or their belts.

You're right again, I have never been in those places, or any place similar for any length of time, and certaintly not under life threatening circumstances. I don't need other people to fear me, and that's not why I train. Again however, you have gone from "any guy off the street," to fighters who "have been fighting and surviving on the street longer than you (I) have been an adult." I would hardly equate that with a lack of martial training, which it seems as though you have from one post to another.

Street fighters don't do your drills, they just beat the crap out of you. Let me put it another way. I've seen guys go in tournaments with no training at all for the fun of it, at every level and win, just to see what its like.

Have you really seen guys go in to tournaments with "no training at all" and win every level, or are you referring to no formal training? Street fighters may not be doing my drills, but they are practicing and perfecting technique, and I bet at least some of them do drill skills they find useful in combat, at least to some degree. If you have seen a completely fresh, unskilled novice take every division in a tournament, I would say that either you have found a prodigy, or the competition wasn't very stiff.

It can become a methodology, and in fact already is, but not a science and only in limited circumstances.

Main Entry: sci·ence
Pronunciation: 'sI-&n(t)s
Function: noun
1. knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through the scientific method and concerned with the physical world and its phenomena

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Main Entry: scientific method
Function: noun
1. principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses

Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Now, maybe the problem here is simply one of communication. Maybe when you say science and when I say science we are referring to two different things. If so please give me your definition of science. I have also included the definition of the scientific method so that I can further clarify that under these specific definitions, American Kenpo and martial arts in general, as practiced in this school, is a science.

So you've learned human anatomy. OK, explain how you do that in a technique so I can see what you know about human anatomy applications in a dynamic environment.

First off, let me say that I don't intend to quote scripture to a nun, if you understand my meaning. I recognize the fact that in this area, you are far more expert than I, however, I will be happy to try when time allows, I need to go teach a class now, but I will answer this in a later post, I promise.

Controlling punches and eye pokes are not the same type of training as I explained in my previous response.

My point was simply that we were learning control. Perhaps they are not exactly the same kind of training, but the student learns to control the speed, range, and depth of penetration of his weapons either way.

Clearly you work hard at what you do, and have a lot of pride in your workouts. I only suggest that it might not be the best way to do what you're doing. If it's working for you, don't let the rants of an old man street fighter/cop in the arts for 50 years rattle your cage. What the hell do I know?

I would surmise that you know a great deal. I believe that your knowledge comes from real experience in stressful situations against committed attackers, as well as long decades spent earnestly studying your art. I would not for a minute pretend that you and I practice the same art, although I believe that at some point far enough back they share a common ancestor. Part of my point, and I mentioned this in my earlier post, is that there is a difference between a "real street fighter" and "any guy off the street." A real street fighter may not have studied a specific style, he may not have spent years learning from a single master, and he may not have the formal training of a student, but he has trained in an environment which does not allow for repeated error. His training is very real and he takes it seriously. I doubt he did as well in his first physical altercation as he did in his fiftieth either. He has continued to grow and evolve as a combatant just as we all do.

I have a great deal of respect for you as an instructor, and I genuinely believe that you are on the level. I am not doing what you do, and I don't always agree with you, but I recognize that from your perspective I am merely a pup. I appreciate you bothering to reply to my posts and taking my points seriously.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

So you've learned human anatomy. OK, explain how you do that in a technique so I can see what you know about human anatomy applications in a dynamic environment.

Sorry for not replying to you sooner. I don't own a computer so I am only able to get on when I have access to someone elses. This is a really long post, so please bear with me.

Ok, first off, let me say that most of my knowledge of anatomy and physiology deals primarily with gross motor motion and basic human chemistry and structure. I am not an expert in this field by any means, but I have some limited knowledge which I will try to impart.

For instance, I know that when a human is in a stressful situation, several chemicals are released into the blood. When activated, the hypolthalamus releases aldosterone, epinephrine (adrenaline), and norepinephrine, along with thyroxine and cortisol. Chemicals such as adrenaline and cortisol increase the heart rate, increasing blood pressure and respiration. The heart then begins pumping more blood to the muscles, supplying more oxygen to the muscles and heart-lung system. Sugar is released into the blood, allowing rapid energy use, and accelerating metabolism for emergency actions. This also causes the blood to thicken, increasing oxygen supply (red cells), enabling better defense from infections (white cells) and to aid in blood clotting (platelets). The sense also sharpen, for instance the pupils dilate, allowing more light in to increase the sharpness of vision, and the bronchial tubes dilate which results in improved hearing, all in an attempt on behalf of the body to increase the amount of information coming in so as to make better decisions faster. The body also begins to prioritise, increasing blood supply to peripheral muscles and the heart, to motor and basic functions regions in the brain, and decreasing blood supply to digestive system and irrelevant brain regions (such as speech areas). This also causes secretion of body waists, leaving the body lighter. The hypothalamus also secretes endorphins, which act as natural painkillers, providing an instant defense against pain. In addition, these substances can cause a decrease in feelings of exhaustion and a decrease in salivation.

Pain is a biological warning sign of immenint danger. We experience pain in the body as a form of bio-feedback which warns us against behaviors which could bring about further harm. Chronic pain is a warning of injury or corruption and informs us of areas of the body which need either protection from further harm or immediate attention. Areas of the body which are more important to biological function, for instance the neck, reproductive organs, or nerve bundles, are often more sensitive to pain. This sensitivity to pain helps to condition us to protect and more carefully treat those areas of the body which are of a greater biological importance.

Physically the body pivots around the spinal column, and major muscles in the limbs allow for movement in either an adducting or abducting fashion. Gross and fine motor skills are controlled within the brain by the motor cortex. All four limbs are jointed similarly and those joints have a limited range of motion. The body has a natural pivot point for motion forward or backward located at the top of the hip girdle, sometimes reffered to in martial arts as the hara or dan tien. The range of motion of the limbs is controlled by both the joints and the muscles. Whereas the range of the muscles can increase or decrease over time through use or atrophy, the joints have a limited range and moving beyond that range can result in damage to the structure of the bones and connective tissue surrounding the joint, as well as the joint socket itself. The body is essentially a series of layers, beginning with the epidermis, and continuing in towards the center of the body past the tissue levels and into the organ systems, which include the musclular and skeletal system. Vains, arteries, and nerves often follow similar pathways through and around each of the organ systems, often moving under and above muscle and bone at different parts of the body, sometimes creating vulerabilities where they are closer to the surface of the skin.

Ok, how does all this apply to a kenpo technique. Well, I have chosen a technique which we call Attacking Fist. Some of you will recognize this technique, or some similar variation, as a technique called Attacking Mace in the EPAK system. Our system comes from a combined Parker/Tracy lineage and has passed through two instructors, Mr. Jim Mitchell, and Mr. Theron Sturgess, each of whom have altered to some degree the techniques themselves, the names of the techniques, or the order in which they are taught. This technique is taught in the beginner class.

ATTACKING FIST
Attack: Right Step through punch to the face
Direction of Attack: 12 O'clock
Family of Techniques: Defense to the outside of the body

1. Step Back with the right foot into a left neutral bow stance as you execute a left inward hammering block to the outside of the attacker's right arm as you simultaneously chamber the right hand. Chambering the right hand is allowed in this case because the block has cancelled your opponent's width.
2. With the left hand execute a position check at or above the elbow of your attacker's right arm applying pressure against the outside of the arm, continuing to cancel his width and preventing him from either folding the elbow in around the check or striking with the forearm because of the structure of the elbow joint.
3. Pivot to a forward bow stance with a right horizontal thrust punch to the attacker's right seventh rib. The horizontal punch is used here to compliment the structure of the opponent's rib bones. By placing all the knuckles on one rib, as opposed to difusing the force by placing the fist across multiple ribs, the punch is more likely to create a broken or fractured bone.
4. As the attacker falls back from the force of the blow, execute a right counter grab check to his right forearm, keeping a light grasp as the attacker's arm keeps moving backward, and grab tightly at the wrist as it flares out into the hand at the end of the ulna bone.
5. Pull the arm, and thus the attacker towards you with your right arm, keeping the arm anchored so as to pull with the back muscles instead of the bicep and along your strong line. Simultaneously execute a right front thrust kick with the ball of the foot to the opponents right seventh rib. Ideally, the punch earlier has broken the rib and this kick will drive the broken rib into the lung, resulting in a punctured lung.
6. Land back into a left neutral bow stance with your hands in the standard guard position.

Concepts introduced in this technique:
1. Teaches the concept of checking at or above the elbow when outside the arm.
2. Teaches the student to compliment the structure of his opponent when striking or blocking to increase the effectiveness of his movements.
3. Teaches compound striking to single targets to increase the effect of the damage or to create additional damage to successive targets.
4. Teaches the student to bring the weapon to the target and the target to the weapon simultaneously to increase the power of a strike.


Ok. Now, I've discussed a little bit about anatomy and physiology, and I've discussed a little bit about technique. How do we drill this technique? Well, drills for this technique include,

1. Student A repeatedly punches towards Student B. B blocks, parries, or slips punch and responds with checking to create opening and a follow up cross punch to the ribs. Further exploration of this drill includes dynamic foot movement; jab, cross, and circular punching; setups, feints, and fakes; follow up striking from the attacker; etc, etc.

2. Student B punches Student A in the ribs and contours the arm to a counter grab check, then pulls A back in for another punch to the ribs followed by another check, repeating the process to practice flowing from striking to control. Further exploration of this drill includes the methods listed above, as well as attempts on the attackers part to disengage at any time from the drill with increasing levels of intensity.

3. Student B pulls Student A with the counter grab check into a kick to varying targets, or pulls A into different techniques including but not limited to, handswords, chokes, locks, takedowns, sweeps, etc, etc.

4. Student A punches Student B and attempts to recover the weapon before B is able to execute his defensive maneuver. Further exploration as above.

5. The technique is practiced by the students at different levels of intensity and penetration, from different angles, with different weapons (both natural and non-natural), and in a sparring context.

I could go on, but this is a place to start. Please remember, this is a beginner technique taught in the beginner class to students with 0-6 months of training. This technique is taught in addition to sets, forms, techniques, and general motion drills designed to teach the student how to apply his techniques from a variety of positions.

I think that's enough for now. I know that this execution is wildly different from what some of you practice. As Mr. Chapel has pointed out several times, Kenpo today can vary a great deal from school to school, style to style, and association to association. This is how we execute this particular technique. On its own it does not make it any more or less valid than what others do. No one technique can make or break the validity of any style or method of training. Feel free to respond in whatever fashion you like.

On a personal note, this is not the first time that I have disagreed with you Mr. Chapel. Despite that, I am increasingly interested in your unique style of Kenpo and hope someday to be able to meet you and learn more about it. There are many other people on these forums with whom I do not bother to post my disagreements. I am only willing to discuss these issues in such depth with you because I have a great deal of respect for you and for what you do, and I know that you will continue to discuss this with a great degree of civility. I do not pretend to have all the answers. I know that what we do works, because my students have used it, even recently, to save their lives from violent assaults. It is because I know that you will not resort to name calling, or impuning the integrity of my mother, that I am willing to engage in such spirited discourse, and I want you to know I appreciate your professionalism. I feel that you represent martial arts in a positive fashion, and that this level of discourse is a positive role model for martial arts forums. Thank you.


-Rob

 

[Doc]

Ok, first off, let me say that most of my knowledge of anatomy and physiology deals primarily with gross motor motion and basic human chemistry and structure. I am not an expert in this field by any means, but I have some limited knowledge which I will try to impart.

We all have limited knowledge. It’s what we do with it that makes the difference. “Gross motor motion” is interesting.

For instance, I know that when a human is in a stressful situation, several chemicals are released into the blood. When activated, the hypolthalamus releases aldosterone, epinephrine (adrenaline), and norepinephrine, along with thyroxine and cortisol. Chemicals such as adrenaline and cortisol increase the heart rate, increasing blood pressure and respiration. The heart then begins pumping more blood to the muscles, supplying more oxygen to the muscles and heart-lung system. Sugar is released into the blood, allowing rapid energy use, and accelerating metabolism for emergency actions. This also causes the blood to thicken, increasing oxygen supply (red cells), enabling better defense from infections (white cells) and to aid in blood clotting (platelets). The sense also sharpen, for instance the pupils dilate, allowing more light in to increase the sharpness of vision, and the bronchial tubes dilate which results in improved hearing, all in an attempt on behalf of the body to increase the amount of information coming in so as to make better decisions faster. The body also begins to prioritise, increasing blood supply to peripheral muscles and the heart, to motor and basic functions regions in the brain, and decreasing blood supply to digestive system and irrelevant brain regions (such as speech areas). This also causes secretion of body waists, leaving the body lighter. The hypothalamus also secretes endorphins, which act as natural painkillers, providing an instant defense against pain. In addition, these substances can cause a decrease in feelings of exhaustion and a decrease in salivation.

All very well stated, except for the “waste” part. The body can eliminate waste when necessary but doesn’t always. A god summary for the effects of an “Adrenal Dump’ as we call it. All very good and useful info to help understand the effects of stress.

Pain is a biological warning sign of immenint danger. We experience pain in the body as a form of bio-feedback which warns us against behaviors which could bring about further harm. Chronic pain is a warning of injury or corruption and informs us of areas of the body which need either protection from further harm or immediate attention. Areas of the body which are more important to biological function, for instance the neck, reproductive organs, or nerve bundles, are often more sensitive to pain. This sensitivity to pain helps to condition us to protect and more carefully treat those areas of the body which are of a greater biological importance.

Basically, yes.

Physically the body pivots around the spinal column, and major muscles in the limbs allow for movement in either an adducting or abducting fashion. Gross and fine motor skills are controlled within the brain by the motor cortex. All four limbs are jointed similarly and those joints have a limited range of motion.

I have often pointed out to those who listen, abstract “motion” although indeed infinite is NOT what any of us deal with in actuality in higher forms of physical expression. “Anatomical movement” which is what we actually must understand is limited, as you so correctly stated.

The body has a natural pivot point for motion forward or backward located at the top of the hip girdle, sometimes reffered to in martial arts as the hara or dan tien.

Yes and is the “central balance point” in human anatomy. A minor correction if I may. “Motion” is an abstract term. When it is applied to human anatomy, it is no longer abstract motion, but becomes specific and defined “anatomical movement.” We are not that far apart.

The range of motion of the limbs is controlled by both the joints and the muscles. Whereas the range of the muscles can increase or decrease over time through use or atrophy, the joints have a limited range and moving beyond that range can result in damage to the structure of the bones and connective tissue surrounding the joint, as well as the joint socket itself.

Correct sir.

The body is essentially a series of layers, beginning with the epidermis, and continuing in towards the center of the body past the tissue levels and into the organ systems, which include the musclular and skeletal system. Vains, arteries, and nerves often follow similar pathways through and around each of the organ systems, often moving under and above muscle and bone at different parts of the body, sometimes creating vulerabilities where they are closer to the surface of the skin.

Sounds like you’ve been reading some of my material.

Ok, how does all this apply to a kenpo technique. Well, I have chosen a technique which we call Attacking Fist. Some of you will recognize this technique, or some similar variation, as a technique called Attacking Mace in the EPAK system. Our system comes from a combined Parker/Tracy lineage and has passed through two instructors, Mr. Jim Mitchell, and Mr. Theron Sturgess, each of whom have altered to some degree the techniques themselves, the names of the techniques, or the order in which they are taught. This technique is taught in the beginner class.

I know Jim. In fact, I have him on video performing the entire commercial system and his interpretation of the sets and all the extensions with Ed Parker behind the camera.

ATTACKING FIST
Attack: Right Step through punch to the face
Direction of Attack: 12 O'clock
Family of Techniques: Defense to the outside of the body

1. Step Back with the right foot into a left neutral bow stance as you execute a left inward hammering block to the outside of the attacker's right arm as you simultaneously chamber the right hand. Chambering the right hand is allowed in this case because the block has cancelled your opponent's width.
2. With the left hand execute a position check at or above the elbow of your attacker's right arm applying pressure against the outside of the arm, continuing to cancel his width and preventing him from either folding the elbow in around the check or striking with the forearm because of the structure of the elbow joint.
3. Pivot to a forward bow stance with a right horizontal thrust punch to the attacker's right seventh rib. The horizontal punch is used here to compliment the structure of the opponent's rib bones. By placing all the knuckles on one rib, as opposed to difusing the force by placing the fist across multiple ribs, the punch is more likely to create a broken or fractured bone.

Interesting thought by I disagree. First, the “horizontal punch.” It is not possible to execute the punch from the “chambered” hip position. Our understanding of what actually is a horizontal punch probably differs. Secondly although your idea of defusing energy across multiple ribs sounds correct, in actuality the basic architecture and structure of the rib-cage is more vulnerable to strikes initiated on a vertical plane across multiple ribs than on a single rib horizontally which allows the structure to “flex” as intended.

4. As the attacker falls back from the force of the blow, execute a right counter grab check to his right forearm, keeping a light grasp as the attacker's arm keeps moving backward, and grab tightly at the wrist as it flares out into the hand at the end of the ulna bone.

What suggests to you that you will be able to grasp his arm with the same hand you strike his rib-cage with, and it will be where you think it is? A person struck in the rib-cage where you suggest is more likely to grasp their entire rib-gage bringing his hands together in front of him, allowing his elbows to “protect” and react to the strike. So “no grab.”

5. Pull the arm, and thus the attacker towards you with your right arm, keeping the arm anchored so as to pull with the back muscles instead of the bicep and along your strong line. Simultaneously execute a right front thrust kick with the ball of the foot to the opponents right seventh rib. Ideally, the punch earlier has broken the rib and this kick will drive the broken rib into the lung, resulting in a punctured lung.

A couple of things here. The idea that your intent is to drive a broken rib into a lung is problematic for me, because someone threw a single punch at you. But, I recognize the source material. Secondly how do you intend, (if this played out as you suggest), to kick the ribs with his elbow and arms firmly attached from the previous strike? Lastly pulling and kicking are easy, however actually moving your attacker will be nearly impossible and at the least difficult. Anatomically, this description falls apart in execution.

6. Land back into a left neutral bow stance with your hands in the standard guard position.

Concepts introduced in this technique:
1. Teaches the concept of checking at or above the elbow when outside the arm.
2. Teaches the student to compliment the structure of his opponent when striking or blocking to increase the effectiveness of his movements.
3. Teaches compound striking to single targets to increase the effect of the damage or to create additional damage to successive targets.
4. Teaches the student to bring the weapon to the target and the target to the weapon simultaneously to increase the power of a strike.

Ok. Now, I've discussed a little bit about anatomy and physiology, and I've discussed a little bit about technique. How do we drill this technique? Well, drills for this technique include,

1. Student A repeatedly punches towards Student B. B blocks, parries, or slips punch and responds with checking to create opening and a follow up cross punch to the ribs. Further exploration of this drill includes dynamic foot movement; jab, cross, and circular punching; setups, feints, and fakes; follow up striking from the attacker; etc, etc.

2. Student B punches Student A in the ribs and contours the arm to a counter grab check, then pulls A back in for another punch to the ribs followed by another check, repeating the process to practice flowing from striking to control. Further exploration of this drill includes the methods listed above, as well as attempts on the attackers part to disengage at any time from the drill with increasing levels of intensity.

3. Student B pulls Student A with the counter grab check into a kick to varying targets, or pulls A into different techniques including but not limited to, handswords, chokes, locks, takedowns, sweeps, etc, etc.

4. Student A punches Student B and attempts to recover the weapon before B is able to execute his defensive maneuver. Further exploration as above.

5. The technique is practiced by the students at different levels of intensity and penetration, from different angles, with different weapons (both natural and non-natural), and in a sparring context.

I could go on, but this is a place to start. Please remember, this is a beginner technique taught in the beginner class to students with 0-6 months of training. This technique is taught in addition to sets, forms, techniques, and general motion drills designed to teach the student how to apply his techniques from a variety of positions.

I think that's enough for now. I know that this execution is wildly different from what some of you practice. As Mr. Chapel has pointed out several times, Kenpo today can vary a great deal from school to school, style to style, and association to association. This is how we execute this particular technique. On its own it does not make it any more or less valid than what others do. No one technique can make or break the validity of any style or method of training. Feel free to respond in whatever fashion you like.

Agreed.

On a personal note, this is not the first time that I have disagreed with you Mr. Chapel. Despite that, I am increasingly interested in your unique style of Kenpo and hope someday to be able to meet you and learn more about it.

I’m sure we can learn from each other.

There are many other people on these forums with whom I do not bother to post my disagreements.

I know what you mean. There are some not actually interested in dialog, only affirming their position or discrediting others for reasons of their own. Its especially curious when a person doesn’t actually have any impact on them or what they do whatsoever. I find it interesting that one site has taken up the task of “exposing” frauds in the arts. Not one of them has exposed any of the many charlatans that actually rip people off, or give belts and teach nothing, or give black belts by video, or teach how to knock people out without touching them. How about the many convicted child molesters that have surfaced in Kenpo again, and again. Instead, they would rather go after people whose adult students have no complaints and seem to think what they are learning has value just like the “vigilantes” think their instructor is so good.

I am only willing to discuss these issues in such depth with you because I have a great deal of respect for you and for what you do, and I know that you will continue to discuss this with a great degree of civility.

That is what MartialTalk is all about. The whiners and dregs go to the “open un-moderated” forums to spill their lies, half truths, and venom.

I do not pretend to have all the answers.

Join the club on that one.

I know that what we do works, because my students have used it, even recently, to save their lives from violent assaults. It is because I know that you will not resort to name calling, or impuning the integrity of my mother, that I am willing to engage in such spirited discourse, and I want you to know I appreciate your professionalism. I feel that you represent martial arts in a positive fashion, and that this level of discourse is a positive role model for martial arts forums. Thank you.

Alright, there won’t be anymore talk like that. I’ll thank you to keep a civil tongue in your head.

What we have discussed above is a classic example of what is missing from most training. A true understanding of anatomy and how it relates to what it is we are attempting to accomplish. The bulk of the information you gave was actually very accurate, and on some level students need to know “how” their bodies will react, and what the causation factors are. However, beyond the effects of an adrenal dump, “how” are these physical movements executed for maximum effectiveness? How are the blocks executed, or how is that punch actually thrown? Why won’t the punch as described not be as effective as a vertical punch? Why can’t you move his arm and execute the last kick? If everything I’ve pointed out is correct, that this technique is dysfunctional. Why do teachers not know this?

The dynamics of biomechanical movement is a mystery to most modern “self-defense” martial artists because it hasn’t been taught to them in a meaningful way. In actuality, those that are grounded in arts that must physically prove a level of dominance are more on track to an honest appraisal of their curriculum, regardless of what may be left out for activity driven preferences. Although I myself am a critic of “sports driven” venues, at least on some level those that compete must actually “do” something and see its effects or lack thereof. Most in self-defense disciplines engage in hypothetical assertions and speak of what they could have done.

Now I’m not saying this type of training does not have some merit. It was designed to do a particular thing and does it very well. However, the higher form of execution and the arts is generally not present by design. I was there when the diversion was made, and it simply has a different focus. Interesting enough, most from my era, (I call us the “ancients” because we predate those who most call seniors) do not teach or in some cases never learned the “motion based Kenpo-Karate curriculum.” Most of us in many ways didn’t like it.

Many deal in false assumptions based on bad information passed from teacher to student through no ones fault. Sometimes it is very difficult to “know what you don’t know.”

Experiment:

Have anyone, (preferably someone small and presumably weaker than most) place his/her elbow firmly against their rib-cage and grasp their body. You will find it impossible to remove it without additional mechanisms beyond simply “pulling.” Push, pull, one hand, two hand, it doesn’t matter. Removing a persons arms from their rib-cage is beyond difficult and “almost” impossible. GEt back to me after the experiment please.

 

[Doc]

Sorry, this is off topic, but I'm trying to reach Doc, and he won't accept emails or pms. Sorry.


Sir, I started a thread over in the General Self Defense forum entitled, "I could beat the british, a boxer, and your best knife fighter."

If you get a chance, I'd really like to hear your opinion on this particular subject. I think you've been doing some things with your particular style of Kenpo that might give you a unique perspective on this topic. Thanks alot.


-Rob

Sorry but the volume of PM's I receive weekly fill my box regularly. Additionally I am not always notified when a thread appears or when the box fills up.

 

[Doc]

Guess the experiment went well, (badly?)

 

[Carol]

Yes I am saying exactly that. Groin smashes, eye pokes or rakes, and throat strikes require little skill. That is why they are a mainstay of "quickie" women's self-defense courses, and commercial self-defense schools. They are not a part of what I was taught, nor do I include it the course curriculum I teach, which is very effective and destructive on demand without those elements. Ed Parker Sr. had a lot more to offer than that.

If I may ask sir, do you teach Sword and Hammer to your students? If so, are you open to sharing you teach it?

 

[Doc]

If I may ask sir, do you teach Sword and Hammer to your students? If so, are you open to sharing you teach it?

My entire existence is about sharing, however there is a limited amount of information that can be transferred about physical activity through the written word and/or video. However that being said:

1. SWORD AND HAMMER:

ATTACK: Right flank at 3:00, walk up extend your left arm and seize the right shoulder, moving CLOSE to strike with a possible cocked right hand, although the right hand is NOT in this scenario. You should be standing in a “street” neutral bow relative to your intended victim.

1. While you are standing facing 12 o'clock, your attacker extends his left arm, seizes your right shoulder, and moves CLOSE while pulling between 2:30 and 3 o'clock. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT™ and (1) INDEX and move to your left toward 9 o'clock into a neutral bow stance (2) Strike just under your attacker's nose, or STERNUM with a right outward hand-sword, as you (3) BAM your right shoulder with your left hand with a PAM your right foot.

STUDY PARTNER: The strike will cause your hands to come to your face or body depending on the strike. Your legs will buckle slightly, and you will be forced to take at least one step backwards probably towards 3:00 or 4:30.

As your attacker reacts to your initial strike, return your striking hand to a BRACED INDEX between you. PAUSE

2. Drag or cross your left foot toward him, then move with your right foot into a neutral bow stance as you PAM your right foot WITH a BAM to your right shoulder on the execution of a right hammer-fist strike to your attacker's lower centerline.

STUDY PARTNER: The strike will cause Explosive Momentary Height Control and buckle both your legs as you drop in height, and raise INDEX your chin, while both of your hands move to where you were struck.

3. Immediately, INDEX and BOUNCE a right, side obscure elbow underneath your attacker's chin, while CONTOURING your attacker's body utilizing BORROWED INERTIA as he comes down from being struck in the low centerline, initiating a COLLISION.

STUDY PARTNER: The strike will stand you straight up, force your hands to your face, and you will step back, spin to your right, and drop.
Right crossover toward 10:30 and cover out facing your attacker in a right neutral bow stance and PAM your forward foot.

Executed properly, this sequence should render Physical/Mental Disassociation.

Execution Signature™: 1 P 2,3 C

 

[Carol]

My entire existence is about sharing, however there is a limited amount of information that can be transferred about physical activity through the written word and/or video.

That is certainly understandable and evident sir. I'll be watching for deals on Southwest.com

(2) Strike just under your attacker's nose, or STERNUM with a right outward hand-sword, as you (3) BAM your right shoulder with your left hand with a PAM your right foot.

Aha. The sternum is something I can reach.

My instructor is just tall enough where I would risk overreaching if I executed a handsword to his throat. Out of respect for him I will mention that he repeatedly stressed the danger of such a move.

The modification that he suggested was to reverse the two strikes, starting first with the hammer to the groin area, which would crumple the attacker forward enough for my handsword to make contact.

This technique starts with an attack that may not even be threat...a hand to the shoulder. Why is it that the opening strike is such a serious move? I guess I am asking why the technique came to be "Sword and Hammer", and not "Hammer and Sword".

Thank you so much for your input sir.

 

[Doc]

That is certainly understandable and evident sir. I'll be watching for deals on Southwest.com

You and other students as well.

Aha. The sternum is something I can reach.

It is the next option on the same centerline meridian for the 'vertically challenged.' We rountinely make adjustments for gender, height, and girth disparities.

My instructor is just tall enough where I would risk overreaching if I executed a handsword to his throat. Out of respect for him I will mention that he repeatedly stressed the danger of such a move.

Very dangerous considering the level of the initial threat.

The modification that he suggested was to reverse the two strikes, starting first with the hammer to the groin area, which would crumple the attacker forward enough for my handsword to make contact.

Reversing the strikes does have some merit, but not at the first level. Consider that if you're being seized at the right shoulder, the seizing hand is in position to inhibit your action to the lower portions of the body. Also consider you will have to be or get very close. Lastly his reaction to the first strike will remove the target you actually want from being available in a second strike.

This technique starts with an attack that may not even be threat...a hand to the shoulder. Why is it that the opening strike is such a serious move? I guess I am asking why the technique came to be "Sword and Hammer", and not "Hammer and Sword".

Because all motion kenpo techniques rely on extreme responses to soft tissue and vulnerable joint strikes to insure effectiveness. There is no room to modulate the level of destruction of your response without significant training not found in the model.

Examine your techniques, and note how often you strike the testicles/groin, smash the throat, poke/strike the eyes, or stomp the foot and kick a knee joint. It's called quick self defense, and don't knock it because it does work, but be prepared to articulate your reasons and justify your actions. It does not work however in 'hands on' techniques where you are manipulated before you can respond. Keep this in mind.